Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
They do. Someone will point out that the Empire has superior FTL, and then someone else will point out they still can't win battles, and then someone else will point out that the EU for Star Wars makes Sidious himself retarded powerful, and all of the characters that would beat him in single combat from the IoM are currently having a sit out.
It will go on like this for a while.
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The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
Last edited by ScreamPaste on Dec 1st, 2012 at 03:15 AM
The IoM does have the slight edge in firepower, but with the superior FTL of the GE there's actually no need for any naval engagements. They can simply fly circles around the Imperial Fleet.
Imagine the following scenario: The GE attacks a planet of the Imperium. The IoM needs days, weeks if not months to reach them, depending on circumstances. By the time they arrive, the GE could just leave and go find another undefended planet to harrass. The GE would simply bleed the IoM to death by taking out Forge Worlds, Agri-worlds, or other planets of relative importance, robbing IoM of food and munitons, without ever having to engage in any true battle.
I know this is a rather short and simplistic version on how a war between the two might go, but as I see it, this is what it will ultimately boil down to. The IoM won't exactly go down without a fight, but when your forces need weeks to travel to a battlefield which the enemy can reach within hours or days, then you're simply not able to fight on the same terms. I say that the Galactic Empire takes this one in the end.
Also Scream, that site I linked you earlier? They have discussed this scenario many times in the past. Take a look there if you want to see more detailed explanations as to why the GE wins over the IoM.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
No important world is ever undefended. Particularly not forge worlds. =P The Warp is less reliable, but 'months' while possible, is not the standard.
The problem is the reverse of what you posted, imho.
While the GE can skim around and avoid a naval confrontation, they cannot defend their worlds. They can harrass Imperial worlds, but those worlds will not be undefended, real progress will be much more costly for them. The Imperium won't have that problem, if the GE does not defend itself in force its' own worlds will fall by the dozen. The Imperium, due to being much larger in terms of military, also has the ability to fight the war on many more fronts than the GE can.
GE being more manueverable doesn't allow it a great advantage over an opponent who is in more places than the GE can be simultaneously, or afford to split their forces in ways the GE cannot.
The only *big* problem for the Imperium I've ever been convinced of is Sidious himself.
In short; If they choose not to fight, they can't defend themselves. If they choose to fight, they'll more than likely lose, and while they're outgunned it's worth mentioning they're outnumbered as well.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
The Empire consists of 1.69 million planets with full representation/membership in the Senate (per the Essential Atlas). It also mentions other protectorates and whatnot, but I can't remember the figure.
Edit: Wookieepedia, which is not an official canon source, says the number of those protectorates and colonies is approximately 69 million and cites the Atlas.
With respect to military numbers, I recall the Rebellion Era Campaign Guide saying the Imperial Army numbers in the tens of trillions, with trillions of fleet personnel, and "a sizeable force of stormtroopers."
The Imperium's planetary defense grids are defense enough.
Good luck destroying or taking over a planet that has enough firepower to obliterate a moon in a single firing, or cause the local star to go nova with a full bombardment.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
Traviss. Not sure if her numbers are still canon, but they were the source of much rage. Dem three million clones. Granted, the GE would be larger then at that specific point, but let me be clear here, any faction that at one point considered three million a significant number is in the wrong war if they're trying to take on the Imperium alone.
Also:
"When the time came to leave Terra, it was a great moment. Not even the triumph at Ullanor can compare with the moment of grief as an entire world wept to see the architect of Unification depart. The alliance of Terra and Mars was complete, and the Mechanicum had outdone itself, building fleets of ships to allow the Emperor to take to the stars and complete his Great Crusade of Unity. The skies over Terra were thick with starships, hundreds of thousands of them organised into more than seven thousand fleets, reserve groups and secondary, follow-on forces. It was an armada designed to conquer the galaxy and that was exactly what we set out to do.”
- A Thousand Sons, pg. 383
Produced by just Mars, Terra, and whatever production capabilities the moons of Saturn have.
The Imperium is, IIRC much larger than the GE, and engaged in the kind of multifront war that the GE cannot even dream of. They have innumerable forge worlds working at all times to produce more and more ships to replace those lost. They throw PDF and Imperial Guard forces at their enemies with less thought or care than I have for pennies. (Significantly less, IIRC there are somethign like a quintillion Guardsmen. (Described as a billion billion, trying to find the source for that. I doubt it's inaccurate, though, because the 3rd edition Tyranid codex uses the same number to describe how many Tyranids make up just Behemoth, and I do not believe Behemoth alone outnumbers the Imperial Guardsmen.)
If taken out of their multifront war, to focus their entire military might on the GE alone, the Imperium could outmanufacture them, out-man them, out-gun them, and due to sheer size, outmanuever them based on just straight up being in more places simultaneously.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
My mistake, I certainly didn't seek to imply that Imperial worlds are all left defenseless. Still, the standard stationary defences are mostly composed of PDF on the ground, a token naval presence, and lance batteries on the surface. The defences are there to keep an invader at bay long enough for reinforcements to arrive and clear them out. This won't do much good against an invader who will simply blast away at the planet from orbit. Forge worlds are a different matter of course, since they are own and controlled by the Mechanicus and not the Imperium, but remember that Graia, a Forge World dedicated to creating Titans, was still successfully invaded by orkz. This wouldn't seem to imply that they own and control defences of any higher caliber than other worlds.
And yes, I know that the orkz had little reason to dally around in orbit and would be more interested in reaching the surface and all da' gud' foightin', and that the GE would leave themselves open for any potential defences if they were to initiate any orbital bombardment, but see, there's the thing. Planetary shielding is nearly nonexistant in the Imperium from what I've gathered, which means that any sort of defences on the ground would be some of the first things to be taken out. I recall Terra had some shielding during the Heresy, but that was Holy Terra as well as ten thousand years go. I doubt Forge World #34b27Alpha would have them.
As per the OP, it is the GE that invades the Imperium, thus it seems to me that they are the ones who will carry the initiative in the early stages of the campaign. Once the Imperium realizes that they're being invaded (which can take some time, considering that their FTL communication can be as unpredictable as their FTL drive, not to mention the slow gears of the Administratum), their first thought won't be "Hey, we're being invaded. We better invade those bastards in return!" Their first response will be to find out *who* it is that attacks them, and then try to fight back on their homeground. I am not saying that the Imperium won't try to invade as well at some point. I am simply saying that it won't be their first response.
And yes, the Imperium is far more militarized than the GE. But their military is limited by their means of transport, which is sadly lacking in comparison to the GE.
The Imperium doesn't have the resources to defend every single world within its borders. They can't be at every single planet at the same time. "He who defends everything defends nothing." The same applies to the GE of course but unlike the Imperium, the GE have the FTL drive to travel more or less wherever they want. The GE can actually split their forces, and then rejoin them when needed, since they move around so damn easily. I would actually say that it's the Imperium who is in danger of splitting up their forces, since the slow FTL of theirs means they can be trapped in transit while the GE can simply move around as they wish. By the time they react to an attack from the GE and respond, the GE can already be at a completely different planet. Again, the slow (compared to GE at least) FTL communication and the slow, grinding gears of their bureaucracy will put a severe dampener at the Imperiums abilities to respond to a swift invader like the GE.
Now, with all this said, I am bowing out of the thread. While I consider myself knowledgeable of WH40k and familiar with SW, I am not particularly used to debates and I'd rather not get bogged down in something I'm not good at. I posted because I do find the topic interesting, and because the thread hadn't picked up speed yet, but I didn't plan to linger. I have a forum title to live up to after all ;P You guys play nicely now!
And for the record, the Imperium will wreck the GE once the ground battles become an actual issue in this war. It's just a matter of reaching that point.
And because people post things while I write my post...
This was during the Great Crusade, so I'm not entirely certain how relevant those numbers are in the present Imperium. Some of those fleet fell to Chaos, some were destroyed, some were lost, etc etc... Much can happen in 10.000 years.
The controversial 3 million figure refers to the Grand Army of the Republic, not the Galactic Empire. {By the way, it has been retconned as being merely the number of the initial order placed by Sifo-Dyas; more recent source material such as the Clone Wars Campaign Guide adopted a much more liberal, appropriate views of their numbers.}
I preface this with the open admission that I am, by no means, a Warhammer expert (the premise bores me, to say nothing of the books). That said, based on estimations provided here for the Imperium's astrography vis a vis the quotes for the Empire indicates that the latter enjoys a significant advantage in terms of territory and probable industrial capability (which I realize can be strategically detrimental in that they have to hold that territory).
With respect to numbers, you must also understand that per the official site and The Ultimate Visual Guide, the Empire was an "unprecedented military buildup", indicating that the strength and size of its armed forces outclasses even those of the Separatist Alliance/Confederacy of Independent System, which fielded quadrillions of battle droids according to numerous sources.
I'm not seeing anything that suggests superior size for the Imperium, let alone to a titanic degree.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
Not something I believe either NemeBro or I subscribe to, either. I think the setting does well with it though.
I like a blend of bright and cheery fictions as well as few grimdark ones. 40k just falls on the crapsack end of it.
Very well. If you're stepping out, I won't reply to your post in detail.
I think you make good points, but disagree with your conclusions on some of them. For example Orks invading Graia. The Orks are incredibly effective invaders. They come in great numbers, hit lightning fast and their lack of self preservation instinct makes predicting them difficult, and stopping them moreso.
It should also be noted Graia's titans went unlooted, and it's implied production was not totally halted, either.
That's just the one point though, anyway, see you in other threads. Probably. Lurker.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
Two of my three roommates love it, with one liking Wars as much as 40k. The other and I represent opposite ends of the spectrum, I suppose.
It's just never done anything for me. Grimdark is used as a pejorative and an endless sea of angst and violence does not endear itself to me (though the same applies for stories without emotional gravitas). And from what else I've seen, 40k is one of the few franchises were constant oneupsmanship is codified rather than controversial.
I tried to read one of the Ciaphus Cain books on the understanding that he is one of the more interesting characters in the 40k-verse and I found it lacking.
Ares, be a peach and clarify the matter of Force adepts and 40k gamechangers. The Book of Sith indicates Sidious was mastering Force Storms shortly after his ascent. I think he should be barred from using them here.
KMC Community Forums
Dec 1st, 2012 01:46 AM
Not sure if her numbers are still canon, but they were the source of much rage. Dem three million clones. Granted, the GE would be larger then at that specific point, but let me be clear here, any faction that at one point considered three million a significant number is in the wrong war if they're trying to take on the Imperium alone.
