Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
Dante's rank in comic tiers.
Lets get this discussion under way where it can't derail the main 'sorting' thread. As per the Captain Falcon and MewTwo threads before it, this thread is just about figuring out where Dante belongs in comicbook tiers.
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The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
So, in the name of the Great Whitehaireness, I hereby present you the evidence supporting "full power" Dante (from anime and into DMC4/3 + SMT:N) for low herald/elite meta.
Also, talking about SMT... only STATS from there are the canon officially endorsed by Capcom. Feats aka standing up to genuine Skyfathers are not... however, let's look at those. http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Dante#Stats
See "Resist" and "Void" slots. So... here, in additional to over the top regeneration, we also have a VERY nifty magic resistance giving him edge over 90% of meta level mages.
-Physically over Mid Multi-City block level (over 1/5th Town Level), stronger with Gauntlets.
-Easily hit Mach 15+ in DMC3 when he was nothing compared to this version, can get to Mach 172 with Alastor.
-Slows down time by 1/3,000th normal speed. This makes even his slower DMC3 Mach 15 speed appear as 5% Lightspeed. He can also stop time.
-Regeneration up to bisection, does so near instantly
-Short distances teleportation.
-Telekinesis strong enough to lift 200kg.
-Able to create a nigh identical clone
-He's able to hit intangibles
-Element manipulation; Wind to create mini-tornadoes. Electricity in the form of pulse shockwaves, summoning Lightning-Bat familiars and shooting lightning bolts. Ice to create room sized glaciers. Fire so hot it can destroy creatures that tank magma, as projectiles, mini-explosions or augmented into strikes. Light as projectiles, mini-explosions or augmented into strikes.
-Can BFR opponents.
-Yamato sword with cutting potential that is an extreme lowball of 1,000 times above a sword. (A low superhuman used it to casually stab what a killing blow from Dante and his normal sword outright failed to do)
-Energy shields able to tank things on Dante's rank. The force from attacks can be stored to either heal himself, attain an incredibly durable form, or release the combined force all in one single attack.
Devil Trigger boosts;
-Nero shows us that his normal arm is Low Building, while his DT arm is mid Multi-City block. DT increases strength tenfold.
-Characters using some DT go from Mach 3 to Mach 15 and from <Mach 1 to Mach 5+, 5 times faster. Stronger DT made Mach 15 into Mach 172, and another DT above even that. DT increases speed by over a tenfold.
-Nero shows his human body can be easily stabbed while his DT arm can tank a stab from Dante's strength. DT increases durability by a massive amount.
-Using DT Dante gained the power to obliterate Abigail and his lifewiping demonic energy.
-He has flight in this form. (This is the real game changer, no? )
There is no doubt that DMC4 Dante is clear into High Meta with his strength and speed alone. All of his powers and DT increases are just icing on the cake.
So take Dante4 up there with those Devil Trigger amps and you will get a character that is weaker than Despair.. just to get a different look at the scale between him and base Dante2. In his base form his demonic power is leagues above Mundus' who was a Low-City buster while being faster than Alastor's granted speed, which with Quicksilver is 60% lightspeed. Throw in Devil Trigger, then his Majin form.. who btw is now able to release his energy as a large blast surrounding himself, as a large beam, or with the Spectral Dragon which bypasses durability (intangible, goes right through the enemy).
He is Low Herald.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
1:09, the rocks begin to fall FOR THE SAKE OF SHOWING OFF THIS NEW POWER!
The rocks fall from late 1:10 to 1:12
(please log in to view the image)
At 1:12 quicksilver initiates, indicated by that grey animations.
Matrix shot until 1:20. (Spinning time still thing)
Anyway, at this point Dante, as pictured above, pokes the stone near his face. This not only halts its momentum but reverses it momentarily. His finger breaks contact from the stone at 1:21 and it floats up briefly and resumes visible descent by 1:22 despite having come to a full stop and having its momentum reversed at the beginning of 1:21. Because time is slowed by a yet unquantifiable amount, we can't use accelleration due to gravity to figure out how fast that chunk is falling, and thus cannot figure out how much quicksilver slows time by. We need to use other rocks.
Enter 1:24 where Dante begins to walk away. If the rocks had fallen a full two seconds before quicksilver was initiated (they had not quite done this) they'd have reached 19.6133 m/s
When Dante walks away we can clearly see the movement of all of the rocks around him he did not touch, let's measure one of those.
Here's a .gif of exactly one second of video, each frame 100 ms apart, ten frames. The rock in the foreground drops 5 pixels in one second.
It's a little bit closer to the camera than Dante, but not by much, he has to push it out of the way to walk past:
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The stone in the background moves 4 pixels in a second, and is farther from Dante than the one in the foreground.
Dante's head in the last frame is 36 pixels.
So 36 px = 23.8 cm, an exchange rate of 1.5126050420168067226890756302521 pixels per cm.
During quicksilver the rocks fall at 0.0330555 m/s, not 0.008 As for their speed outside of QS and therefore the overall difference in time flow, if they'd fallen a full 2 seconds, as above, 19.6133 m/s, if so that's an increase of 593 times. So, about 600 times. Now, luckily we see the rocks fall after Dante turns off QS. Let's see...
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46 pixels in 1/10th a second. 460 pixels per second. Multiply by our exchange rate of 1.5126050420168067226890756302521 and...
695.79831932773109243697478991597 cm/s.
6.95, might as well call it 7 m/s. Which amounts to a timeshift of 210 times.
Still very impressive and a great boost to speed, but not 3000 times, damnit.
As a further point, QS is time manipulation, not raw speed. There are characters who can resist that sort of thing. Kratos comes to mind.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
Last edited by ScreamPaste on Aug 24th, 2013 at 04:27 AM
First Q is why you threw out the big rock when its rate of speed remains constant to the other non-touched rocks fall speed and even the rock he pushed aside which still went downwards. Besides the fact that all rocks actually had a near perfect stop when the main one was an inch from his eyes until he poked it.
No its not raw speed, but to anyone without resistance it may as well be. And nah, Kratos' was far from this level.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
The big rock does match the other rocks' speeds after the shift in camera angle, true, it also moves as far as the other rock, possibly a pixel farther. From the original angle it was out of synch though. This is probably just a case of minor, unimportant continuity error. Which rock is used doesn't really matter, though.
The perfect stop was during a matrix cut where the camera panned around a perfectly still Dante. Once things started moving again (and Dante does as well) we can clearly see the speed the rocks fall at during QS, and once QS stops we can see how fast they fall outside QS.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
If based on bike feat from anime, then first closer to 250 kg, then it needs to be clarified that it's Superboy-style TK, not Jean-style TK. "Tactile charging" of object to make it move faster.
If there's no issue with that rock, comparing it to Dante's finger should be fine.
Except that we see Dante move his head just before the spin, and that the rock above Dante retains that 'matrix' speed even while he's moving his finger to go poke it. So its not just for show, those rocks were in an even greater suspended state.
The change of momentum is all likely to do with QS, like how they go from 20-24m/s to 7m/s (which cannot be the previous speed as that would make its starting point around 15m, not the <60m that it is) or how the upwards/sideways push acts like those forces didn't happen. I'll admit there is probably an unknown theory based reason as to why it goes from insta-stop to really slow, maybe his own concentration or what he's exerting. But as it stands for the first ten seconds it was insta-stop to 0.008m/s when touched, was only after that that it showed 0.023m/s* when walking away. But as there is no explanation to say it was only one, they're all to be considered.
*-The rock above his head takes 5.3s to cover the distance of about 12cm, Dante's chin to eyes.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
During that shot there is a disparity between it and the other rocks due to him stopping and reversing its fall speed. In the next angle this is ignored, but during the shot in question it is relevant and that shot cannot be used to accurately determine the speed of the falling rocks.
We actually don't see that, we cut to him in that position with the rocks frozen above him, and he remains perfectly still during that entire spin, contrasting sharply with the rest of the scene.
Not so, even Dante was not moving during the time when the rocks were not. When he begins to move again the rocks begin to fall at a steady and visible rate, it's pretty cut and dry.
Whether 7 m/s is 'too slow' or not is an unwinnable debate for either side. On one hand the rocks should be moving, according to accelleration due to gravity between 9 and 15 m/s, but on screen they're moving a measurable 7 m/s. (46 pixels in 100 ms, 460 pixels per second, etc) It doesn't make sense but DMC isn't big on being accurate to physics. So which is correct? What should be happening, or what we see? I'm inclined to go by what we see in the case of a scene where the laws of physics are being made to cry and eat icecream. But it's impossible to be definitively right. So meh.
Both numbers lead to QS being significantly less than 3000x, though. QS is still good, and hax, but it's not that hax.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Except seeing as the speed retains the same speed as the other rocks, what the difference in its downwards speed?
Mhm. Watch the scene again and pay attention to that instance before the spin, 'cause we clearly have Dante moving. Not a contrast when its the exact thing before the poke.
When that post-QS fall speed poses a stark difference from the pre-QS falling speed, with QS seeming to have some extra effect on them.. yeah, the post speed not matching to the pre speed is an issue. Post-QS the rocks fall as if their previous velocity was halted, as if they were fresh falling from the 2m above the ground they were in that scene. So either they goofed, or QS made it so. Either way the original speed of the rocks would come from pre, not post.
Using the pre speed you get 1,060x with 0.023m/s.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
In the next cut it's speed returns to being consistent with the others, this is either a continuity error or artistic liscense: physics.
I rewatched it. We literally do not see Dante move, and what's going on before the time stop isn't really relevant because at no point does Dante, or anything, move during the time stop. This isn't QS, this is a Matrix Spin. We then see the degree to which QS has actually slowed time once Dante starts moving again.
There is no difference there. QS doesn't physically effect objects on its own, it did not slow those objects and force them to reaccellerate, though if it did that would mean it slows time even less since the objects were physically slowed, not just temporally.
Essentially, Artistic License Physics happened. How fast the rocks were going is impossible to say. On screen it's 7m/s, in theory it should be between 9 and 19m/s.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
The same thing that happens to the rock in the scene you're using as the speed measure.
(please log in to view the image)
The instant after QS with Dante moving, exactly the same as Dante going to poke the rock that is still in insta-freeze. 10 seconds.
Three times slower is a difference.
Impossible? The rocks take 2.2s to fall <60m. If anything the post-speed would be your artistic licencing as it suddenly acts as if it was dropped from that height of 2m, which as said is a goof. And if that scene goofed with that falling speed, it would call into question the other falling speed and the rocks he pushed during that same scene.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
What? I measure the speed of that rock before Dante touches it, thus having no effect on it's movement speed at that point. I measure the true speed of the rocks using a separate rock altogether.
The ten second time freeze isn't QS, it's a stillshot camera spin, so yeah.
Three times slower than what? It's a different speed, yes, but the on screen speed, when we can actually measure the speed of the rocks, is 7 m/s.
That would be a goof because Accelleration due to gravity. Also it happens in under 2 seconds, I have no exact measure because I'm too lazy to quantify the space between 'late' 1:10 and 1:12.
'And if the scene goofed with ...' is not a good argument for proving your previous or current calcs are accurate, it just makes things start to look even harder to quantify because the animators seem to have already goofed several times in your opinion.
So, in closing.
There are two possible speeds for the rocks outside of QS.
7 m/s, or between 9 and 19 m/s. Neither one is definitive because physics suggests one and the scene shows another. During QS they can be measured at moving almost 4 cm/s for the bulk of the time we watch them moving. QS slows time by between 200 and 600 times using the numbers this scene gives us.
Also, it's a bit disappointing that you, myself, and Charlotte are the only ones discussing this. We each only get one vote and have already voted, and I do not see any of us as likely to change our votes, so we're basically going over this for fun.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
What I'm saying is that youre not using the finger-scene as the speed for messing with momentum, but in the scene you're using both that rock and the the one he pushes in that scene move at the exact same rate as the rest, proving that him interacting did not make their speed any different. So to throw out the finger-scene for that reason is to throw out the later scene for the same thing
What is the evidence that the spin is a stillshot? Because seeing Dante move before and after it with the rocks frozen would say the opposite.
On screen speed still has it falling that distance in that time, 66 frames in 30fps. So far we're left with;
Out of the two major things here the one thing with the fault (and explainable one at that) is the 7m/s. Unless it can be denied that the rocks animation/speed post-QS is that of rocks falling from 2m, that would be the only goof for that and for being impossible for that being the speed before.
And unless Dante moving with the rocks at a complete stop is countered, that's there too.
..pretty much :T However, me and DeBel have said why we believe Dante is in this tier.. what about you, why do you think he's High Meta?
Taking Dante3's speed (so no DT and far from Dante2's Alastor speed) of Mach 15 combined with QSs weakest modifier of 304x, and we're given 0.5 light speed. Then 1.46c, 1.9c and 5.47c respectively.
Dante2 would 'at least' have that speed, casual Town level strength (>DT!Dante4) with City busting power (>Mundus) showing energy above large scale threads (>Abigail+Despair).. and in base form no less.
..Regen, TPing, TKing, clone, decent and varied element manip, BFR, Yamato, powerful shields that can heal or combine+redirect, and the stark amps given by Devil Trigger and especially Majin form..
Speed is easily Low Herald. Strength and output should at worst borderline, and all of those abilities should push him over the edge if he was in between.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
This never happens. When Dante is moving, so are the rocks, at an extremely visible speed. If Dante's hair so much as rustled during the still frame spin this could be argued, but yeah.
The only debatable thing concerning the speed of the rocks in QS is whether the speed physics suggests should be in play or the on screen speed, and neither of those can be said to be 100% correct, though I would lean toward the scene the animators animated being the accurate one.
Putting Dante in low herald requires too much unreliable power scaling, to be blunt. He didn't one shot Despair, whose durability is an unknown, thus not proving he's got more power, which as a sidenote manifests itself significantly differently in different beings all through DMC. It also cannot be translated directly into destructive power or durability. There's also the issue of some minor calc stacking, which I take issue with inherently.
If we went through and powerscaled similar gamingverses by similar means we could come up with some truly monstrous characters. LH Dante is a product of multiplying feats across the series upon one another in ways that never actually happen, I guess is what I'm saying.
But yeah, futility if it's just us, we've already voted.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
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I clearly see Dante moving, don't see dem rocks moving though.
You're saying that the rocks didn't fall as if they started at that point? Visuals and your speed suggest just that.
Its the same powerscaling used across the board. A is Mach 1, B is faster than A, to B is Mach 1+.
We know that Dante's DT increase strength and speed by a tenfold as proven by 5 characters, and we know DT Dante cannot compete with guys in Mundus' tier. They are tenfold base Dante based on actual consistent figures, as well as a fraction of their powers giving two things 0.78-1TJ power or Mundus using that 1PJ blast.
Its not like anyones saying "Dante2 is 723x stronger foe being x many DTs stronger than 4", just the same powerscaling thats always been used based on the facts.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
KMC Community Forums
Aug 23rd, 2013 05:21 PM
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As for their speed outside of QS and therefore the overall difference in time flow, if they'd fallen a full 2 seconds, as above, 19.6133 m/s, if so that's an increase of 593 times. So, about 600 times. Now, luckily we see the rocks fall after Dante turns off QS. Let's see... 
