__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
If we take Krayt's word at face-value he claims his Sith Fighters, which are the equivalent of TIE's for the GE, can take on a fleet of Imperial star destroyers and crush them.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
Palpatine's Empire has all kindz of statistics. Does Krayt's? Do we know how big his military is? Cuz if it's comparable, and he has Sith Lords and Dark Siders out the wazoo running it...
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
If we take Anakin's word on it, then by the end of ROTS he's already surpassed Sidious, and Kenobi by AotC is as wise as Yoda and as powerful as Mace. Does that sound right to you?
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
The galaxy has done some exploration/colonization in the years since the GE, however Krayt's empire is missing some small chunks in the form of the Fel and Galactic Alliance remnants, and the worlds devastated by the Vong haven't fully recover. Additionally, it didn't have as much time to build up before the wars started. So overall, their military should be a bit smaller. And it also doesn't really use the Super Star Destroyers/big ships of the GE.
That said, their normal ships are better. In the intervening time, turbolaser tech has been improved some, and the fighters are high performance. The normal fighter is the TIE Predator, which is basically a shielded/hyperspace equipped TIE Interceptor + 10% (later they introduced Sith Fighters, but they seemed fairly similar in performance to the Predators).
In a fight between an ISD-II and a Pellaeon, it'll be a fight, but the Pellaeon will consistently come out on top and it's fighter complement will do likewise.
We don't have to take their word for it- We saw Annihilator's weapons ignoring the shields of capital ships and shooting down several. They aren't TIE equivalents, though, they're elite units made with force tech, each piloted by a Sith Trooper and launched by large Dragonships (a new, large capship design bigger than a star destroyer). Predators and normal Sith Fighters still make up the bulk of the fighters.
This is assuming we're using Legacy War rather than the time of the main comic.
With War, what happens is Krayt's Dragon Ships and Annihilators rapidly devastates a path to Coruscant and opens up it's defenses. They land and isolate Palpatine's office. 20 Sith Troopers are sent to face Sidious and Vader and, though the troopers die, both are tired by the battle. Then Krayt (reborn at this point) and his inner circle (Nihl, Talon, Maladi, Styfe at this point. Maybe Havok too) enter. Game over, One Sith victory.
With the main series, it's more of a conflict. The Krayt Empire will win more battles, but the Galactic Empire will be able to win some by massing it's forces, or especially using it's biggest ships. Krayt's forces will have to be careful not to overextend themselves. But a big tipping point is the One Sith- Krayt'll have force users in most every battle. When confronted with their opposition, they'll dismantle the Imperial Inquisition and overcome the few Hands. Vader'll take a chunk about them, but even he has to be careful about not being overwhelmed/worry about taking on multiple elite members at once. Krayt may even try and convince Vader to turn (which may or may not be a legitimate offer). Wyyrlok's around and a big threat, and minor sith will assassinate or turn many Imperial officers/conduct many special operations missions. Palpatine will suffer through multiple assassination attempts, but survive them easily. He may be forced to go personally on the offensive and try and confront Krayt. Krayt's still in his armor here, but such a confrontation would be risky as the odds of facing Krayt alone are low, and Wyyrlok and Maladi as backup would be bad news even for Sidious. Still, a move by him and Vader is their best chance, as risky as it is with the numbers disadvantage.
It'll be a longer war, but the higher number of Sith and the average better ships/fighters tilts it to the Krayt Empire.
I haven't seen any indication that Krayt's Empire is even a fraction of the size of the GE. Furthermore, he doesn't really possess an empire, just a few thousand sith and loyal Moffs. The Empire is splintered at that point. So no, I don't think his "Empire" stands a chance.
The way Coruscant was defended during Palpatine's reign, Krayt's few dragons would get annihilated.
Last edited by JohnFranks500 on Sep 12th, 2013 at 12:22 PM
His Empire is the territory of the Galactic Empire/Republic, minus the much-smaller Fel Empire-in-Exile, which is mostly in the place of the old Imperial Remnant, and a few holdout pockets the GA has, but plus territory that's been expanding into in the following century+.
The map's in the official Atlas. The Krayt Empire technically holds more raw territory than Palpatine's GE (it's just more of that territory is either recovering from the Vong or new, small colonizations, and it's missing some important worlds to the holdout groups).
Considering the shield-busting weaponry and how easily they were killing capships, that would apply to the defense stations too. Throw in the rest of his forces, no way can Coruscant resist.
Heck, one of the main reasons the remaining forces in the Fel Empire and Alliance and Jedi made a desperate attack on Coruscant in War was because they knew that their fortress worlds defenses were screwed. Unless they won fast, they'd lose without the slightest doubt.
I can't properly debate this given the startling lack of knowledge about the Legacy era, but I would like to raise some points and questions:
I seem to recall that the One Sith number in the tens of thousands as of Legacy (10k seems to be the go-to number for Force cults) and I don't expect that ten thousand Sith will actually make a colossal difference in military engagements; 10k Jedi in "the golden age" of the order were unable to subdue Dooku's Separatists (with Republic support) and the Galactic Empire, by all accounts, outnumbers the Separatists considerably. Barring large-scale abilities like battle meditation, it seems to me that the only way the One Sith will make a difference is through surgical strikes and assassination attempts, confining their uses against the Imperial Military.
Though I don't expect that Palpatine's Empire vastly outsizes Krayt's Sith, I expect that the heaps of accolades surrounding the former and the presence of territories that shirk off Sith authority (a swollen Hutt Space, the exiled Fel to name a few) would indicate smaller size. Though Palpatine's empire didn't necessarily rule every planet, the Atlas does note that these satellite nations (the Hapes Consortium, Hutt Space, et al.) were pretty much under de facto Imperial rule by virtue of the fact that they couldn't mount any resistance to Palpatine and only operated as such because Palpatine allowed them to. The Atlas map doesn't confer superior size to Krayt's empire. You'll note that the Clone Wars map indicates that the Republic and Separatist territory pretty much covered the extent of Krayt's, and we know the Galactic Empire at its height held more territory than either Clone Wars faction. I take the lack of Galactic Empire map to merely refer to the fact that, for all intents and purposes, it was truly galactic in scope.
Allowing for Krayt's technological advancements, Palpatine's Empire was the greatest military buildup in galactic history. Though the former may enjoy an edge in sheer sophistication, the Galactic Empire probably has a titanic advantage across the board, especially in terms of size and raw firepower, to say nothing of experimental- and super-weapons.
Perhaps the most important comparison is one between each Sith leader. Palpatine unquestionably the superior Force user, with greater knowledge and power. What's more, he is a prodigious practitioner of battle meditation whereas Krayt is not [?]. As in the thread with Vitiate's empire, once Krayt's minions are in a position to assess their Master's relative strength with that of his enemy, I expect the One Sith to defect in droves. To say nothing about the Emperor's vastly superior utility as a strategist.
Just some items for your consideration, Q. And you may or may not have an answer to all of them, but I figured I'd raise them just the same.
I'd also note that I think Krayt's empire is the one faction best equipped to potentially defeat Palpatine.
Last edited by The_Tempest on Sep 13th, 2013 at 11:41 PM
You are correct on the former, but I'm going to disagree on the force user bit.
Keep in mind at the start of the Clone Wars, the Clones were only coming into action in small batches and the Jedi were crucial to the war effort. They did stuff like sabotage shipyards, turn key battles with foresight, and go after leaders on multiple occasions. Remember that it was Jedi taking down Dooku and Grievous who ended the war, not simple force of arms, and I believe several other lesser Seperatist leaders had fallen sooner.
One other thing they're quite good for, as shown both during the Clone Wars and Rebellion, is sabotaging, destroying, or stealing, experimental/super weapons. CIS superships and the like were regularly destroyed by Jedi, Luke handled the DS, etc..
Consider also for a moment the only two Superweapons brought online during the Empire's height, the Death Stars- Krayt knows about them and their weaknesses. The Krayt Empire DS assault is going to consist of 100 Sith-piloted fighters who will find it laughably easy to sink the torp shot in the exhaust port, and the DS II is never going to get to completion.
There's some areas that I'm sure were colonized only during the post-GE time. Like North-west, on the path to Chiss space. Chiss space in Krayt's time is no longer "Over there, in the Unknown Regions," but instead a regular trade partner.
Heck, there is a lot of Chiss in the Krayt Empire, including a moff. The Krayt Empire, in fact, doesn't have an anti-alien policy come to think of it, so it has that advantage there in recruitment base.
I will also note that Hutt space was effectively not part of the GE either.
The Krayt Empire was still a time of war, when buildup had been going on for years and large fleets were common. The difference is not going to be titanic, it's going to be pretty small if anything.
And, 'size' and 'raw firepower' shouldn't be an edge, except in the rare super-big flagships. A Pellaeon class is not outmassed than an ISD-II, and we know Turbolaser technology has improved in the interim (the Scythe class the Alliance uses, for example, is known for having some of the highest front-arc firepower of any ship ever, and it's smaller than an ISD and does so by using a smaller number of faster-firing, high-powered turbolasers). And that's even without the newer Imperious rolling out, which are a step up over Pellaeons across the board (faster, tougher, more firepower).
Most conflicts are going to involve ISDs, and they're going to involve being outgunned and outfightered by the Sith.
The TIE Predators and the Sith Fighters are, judging by the RPG stats, not far from the terrifying TIE Defender. Smaller and without quite as much firepower, but they've got an advantage even over X-wings/A-Wings/Interceptors/etc., so the fighter battles will pretty much always favor the Krayt Empire.
The big ships are still going to be a threat, but the Rebellion regularly handled those by ganging up with smaller ones, so the Krayt Empire can too.
Actually in terms of knowledge, Krayt/The One Sith Order is probably ahead, or at least about tied. He's older and has studied for longer. He's studying Sidious and he's studied from ancient sith holocrons that Sidious didn't have.
And, importantly, in terms of knowledge they're willing to share, they're far ahead. Just as Jerec, the Imperial Inquisitor who is loyal purely on the promise of Sith knowledge that Palpatine's largely withholding from him.
To my knowledge Krayt hasn't used battle meditation, but I am unsure.
If we talk Post-Resurrection, then Krayt gained additional knowledge from passing through death, and a big power boost, and is fairly close to Sid's level (he even accomplishes control-over-life, something Sidious aimed to do but never reached to the same level, and is something that *Vader* would defect for. Reborn Krayt could heal Anakin's wounds).
They are all aware of the Rule of Two's view on Sith and what it means that Vader's still around, and they are loyal unto death to the One Sith.
This isn't the Brotherhood of Darkness, almost all of the One Sith were raised from birth to be Sith and are extremely loyal to the cause. Just about the only defections you'll see are ones planted by Krayt and Maladi, unless some particular independent individual believes they can replace Vader, and even then there's only a few who'd even consider it, most have no interest in defection and would die before doing so even if the option was available.
Heck, come to think of it, the only RoT Sith they may listen to is Vader, who has somewhat similar goals, and that'd be more of a 'get him to defect to the One Sith,' situation.
The One Sith very much believe in power through unity. Unless they honestly believe they are beaten, quite unlikely, that's unlikely to ever change.
Palpatine wasn't much of a military strategist himself, and Krayt planned the takeover of the galaxy in his own lifetime and it worked.
Palpatine was a great political strategy, but for war strategy, he used other generals like Grievous and Vader.
The One Sith aren't going to defect thinking Sidious will win, because they believe Krayt will win, and they do have the resources, tech, and force users to give them quite a few advantages in that area.
I’m not sure that this can be properly debated. My knowledge of the Legacy era is minimal at best and though you seem intimately familiar with it, the sheer amount of guesswork and speculation as to resources, territory, and strength of arms suggests that the capabilities of the Felpire/Krayt’s Sith are not vividly explored even in the source material.
Either way, you have successfully convinced me that this will be a grueling battle, which is pretty damn unprecedented for a conventional military battle with the Empire. I would, however, like to respond to a few points.
This assumes that rank-and-file Sith would be able to duplicate Luke’s one-in-a-million shot, which is unattested.
Perhaps more importantly, it assumes that Tarkin and other Imperial bigwigs will respond to the One Sith exactly as they responded to the Rebels at Yavin, which is unreasonable. Luke’s victory owed much to Tarkin’s hubris and reluctance to deploy the Death Star’s full defenses against them. Tarkin, a seasoned veteran of the Clone Wars and witness to Jedi capabilities, would have probably taken the Rebel threat more seriously had he known that a Force user was among their number. Fully-trained Sith Lords would probably earn his full attention.
Not to mention that once Palpatine learns of them, Tarkin really won’t have a choice.
I don’t mean to suggest that Palpatine’s inquisitors are, pound-for-pound, the equal of fully-trained Sith Lords. But Palpatine’s efforts to collect Force paraphernalia is simply unrivaled in scale and scope: He collected the greatest works of Force knowledge from over a million worlds, studied various Force cults and the native sorceries of his own adepts, inherited the Sith archives (which may or may not be Plagueis’s vast personal library of Force lore in Darth Plagueis) and those of the Jedi, and conducted his own extensive experimentation in the Force on Byss.
Certainly Krayt and Wyyrlok have access to sources Palpatine didn’t, but that only proves that Palpatine’s knowledge—while vast—was limited, which is not in question. Meanwhile, the destruction of Byss and Luke’s woeful lack of formal education suggests that if Palpatine’s knowledge base survived him, it was well-hidden. I see no evidence to suggest Krayt inherited any of it beyond what was relayed to him by Vergere.
In other words, Palpatine conducted what was probably the most exhaustive hunt for Force knowledge in the galaxy, horded it all, and Krayt has the scraps.
Battle meditation and other means of large-scale telepathy are formidable challenges to Krayt and, unfortunately for him, Palpatine demonstrates enormous skill in this regard: His rituals that affected the Jedi across the galaxy, his psychic manipulation of the populations of Byss and Coruscant, and the unusually potent battle meditation that bound the Empire’s armies and fleets to his will.
That Krayt is on par with Palpatine is an exceptionally bold claim and one that I don’t believe has been well defended. Krayt is undoubtedly powerful, but Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord yet introduced to the franchise and has a wealth of accolades and feats to his name.
I’m skeptical of this. Military affairs were clearly not Palpatine’s preferred domain but his outrageous micromanagement of the Clone Wars would require Palpatine to have at least played a role in directing military strategy—while using the likes of Grievous, Tarkin, Vader and others to execute such plans and act on a more tactical level.
In fact, the success of Operation Shadow Hand—Palpatine’s gambit to reclaim the galaxy by force—suggests a quiet expertise in this regard. While he may or may not have a knack for elements on a tactical level, Palpatine has demonstrated an unparalleled aptitude for deception, propaganda, misdirection, perception, and manipulation—all elements that find great utility in the war room as much as the Senate hall.
Though you’ve convinced me that Krayt’s Sith can at least challenge the Galactic Empire even on the Empire’s own terms (i.e., conventionally), I am unconvinced by comparisons between Krayt and Palpatine on a personal level as mages and masterminds. Palpatine enjoys a clear advantage in both regards.
Last edited by The_Tempest on Sep 14th, 2013 at 03:27 PM
Additionally, the rebel planners thought a normal person with a targeting computer could manage.
But they still don't have fighters that can match Legacy era ones, the odds of penetrating to the trench run even with a heavier response is likely.
Krayt can send large numbers of elite force-using pilots in fighters a bit better than Vader's personal one (and, for that matter, very large numbers of non-force users to support them). Except for Vader's, the DS1's fighter complement was basic TIEs, not even Interceptors. The difference is going to be staggering, I would not want to be a normal pilot going against sith-piloted fighters.
Additionally, the KEmpire wouldn't have to steal the plans to do so, to tip off the GEmpire that there's a weakness.
Ah, major note on this- He did so by clouding the force and tilting things to the dark side, which remained unhindered...
... and his opponents here also use the dark side.
The same technique that shut down the Jedi would not shut down Sith quite as much.
Reborn Krayt (as opposed to Armored Krayt) did accomplish some major things that Palpatine desired to but never reached, and is in possession of some major feats (he was able to communicate and announce his presence in the force across the entire galaxy).
While Sidious may overall still be a bit ahead, in specific areas Reborn Krayt has been shown to be ahead. A direct conflict between them would certainly be an epic fight.
Krayt held back by the vong growths, is further behind and would clearly lose to Palpatine.
Military-wise, I'm mostly arguing during the time Krayt had armor, so in this case specifically it'd be a bad idea for Krayt to take him on unless he really used a lot of forces to wear down Palps first.
Sep 12th, 2013 02:23 AM
