Gender: Male Location: Drifting off around the bend
God and Time
I have read some argue that God is outside the bounds of time. These have led to some conclusions on my part as to the idea of God and time.
God, deity cannot be outside the bounds of time.
Why?
God interacts with mortals and entities within the bounds of time. He presents timetable statements to man.
God acts within the bounds of time.
If one acts within the bounds of time at any point, then something comes before something else for the individual. If an event occurs, and is followed by any other event, everything implicated in that event has existed at two separate points of time.
Mortals existing and God interacting with mortals shows that God is bound by time. The only means for God to not be within the bounds of time is if everything in existence is eternal and unchanging. This is not the case.
God exists within the bounds of time.
Anything that interacts with anything that is altered or changes is within the bounds of time. There is no method by which man would ever contact or be contacted by anything outside the bounds of time.
To be outside the bounds of time is to be sterile, immobile and defunct.
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
I don't know if defunct is the right word, but anything outside of time would never change. However, time as an independent object that someone can be inside or outside of is a flowed depiction of time. The time that you see on a clock is an abstraction and does not exist in reality. Time is space: that is why in Einstein’s theory of Relativity, time is combined with space to be called space-time. The only part of time that is real is Time Dilation. We have proved that Time Dilation exists. However, Time Dilation does not have an inside or outside, because the end results always takes place in the present. Let me explain: If I traveled on a space ship near the speed of light, time for me relative to someone back on Earth would began to slow down as I approached the speed of light. After a year of travel, a lot more time would pass on Earth, but when I return to Earth I’m only a year older. Am I in the past and everyone on the Earth in the future? The answer is, no; Time Dilation does not have a past or future, it all takes place in the present. God is not inside or outside of time, because time does not exist.
This question is not something new. In the ancient philosophies of hinduism(and all that descended from it) they investigated questions like this for a long time and they have their answers. An example is :
Dharmakaya --> level of God beyond time and space, in this level there is no interaction between the divine and the mortal world
Shambogakaya --> A more tangible level that allows some sort of interaction.
Nirmanakaya --> The more tangible level in which the divine can be manifested and incarnated to interact directly with the manifested world. The level at which Jesus worked.
All these questions about God were already worked out in the ancient philosophies. That sort of knowledge is kinda out of reach today perhaps. But for people that are interested in answers to questions like this, that is the place to search.
Gender: Male Location: Drifting off around the bend
Exactly. Time is only state following state, if two states occur that is time. Existence demands the concept, the concept is only the difference between relative states when compared to one another.
Although, time dilation is only relative experience and impact of time, not relative time.
I agree with you Regret, but if God is bound my time, then he is not truly omnipotent. He may or may not be the most powerful being in existance, but being bound by time would mean he is limitted.
Thus my beleif that a truly omnipotent being cannot exist. If your God exists, then he struggles like we do.
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
I'm sorry to disagree, but there is no moment or "state". All there is, is now, and now always changes. However, "now" never changes. "Now" is eternal. That may sound like a paradox, but paradoxes are allowed.
Throught history, God is continually integrated more and more into the fabric of our human world. This makes him more and more human, and easier for people to relate too.
However, this presents a catch 22. If god becomes more an dmroe integrated into our physical universe, he becomes easier to destroy, more imperfect (human), affected by the same things tha affect us. If he remains outside, people can't relate, and god fades away as a mere etherial presence.
Gender: Male Location: Drifting off around the bend
I believe existing as God is probably a precarious balance that is handled easily due to the perfect nature of being God. If God were to be outside the things that effect us how would His existence hold relevance to man? Only by the fact that God is in a state where items that impact us also impact Him is God relevant to man.
A good analogy in physics of how can something exist outside of time is the Hartle-Hawking state.
The Hartle-Hawking state is the state of the wavefunction of the entire universe in the theory of quantum gravity. It is simply the quantum state of our universe considering all possible configurations of our universe including all space-times possible.
This state is independent of time, it doesn´t change in time. As time passes it remains the same, its a form of symmetry. What happens is that time itself is generated by this wavefunction. Time must be created by this wavefunction because it is the wavefunction of our entire universe.
It is, the wavefunction is beyond time, and time is created by it. In my view God is like this wavefunction, but not necessarily that God is limited to do just what the wavefunction does.
__________________
Last edited by Atlantis001 on Feb 19th, 2007 at 01:30 PM
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
Definitions of Subsume on the Web:
The incorporation of an idea, concept, or skill in a more complex framework (eg using parts of speech to learn the structure of sentences and to master sentence fluency).
contain or include; "This new system subsumes the old one"
consider (an instance of something) as part of a general rule or principle
Good word! I had to look it up so I figured other might have missed it so here is the definition.
"time" as we humans know it is simply a coordinate on the fabric of space preventing seperate specimens of matter from co-occupying the three known physical dimensions.
Time is also relative to the perception of individuals who are experiencing space differently.
any way it goes..........time is dirctly inter-woven with the fabric of space. If one claims god created the universe and was around before space was created, he would not be bound by it.....nor the "time" inter-woven into it.
KMC Community Forums
Feb 18th, 2007 06:21 AM
Exactly. Time is only state following state, if two states occur that is time. Existence demands the concept, the concept is only the difference between relative states when compared to one another. 
I've seen that show.
