Considering Yoda shitted on Dooku while being half distracted, trying to turn Dooku and Dooku being on Vjun basically a dark side nexus and Exar Kun who is on the level of Yoda or Dooku in dueling since when now? I'd say he beats them both.
That's riduculous. Yoda never shitted on Dooku, Dooku did put up a pretty good fight against him and proved himself nearly on par with Mace in Obsession. Kun curb-stomped Vodo and stalemated Ulic before creating the double-bladed lightsaber. Yoda would pwn neither of these power-houses alone, and together he'd stand no chance against them.
Styles that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If anything Kun IS on the level of Yoda in saber combat, and at the very least, DOoku. Yoda gets wtfpwned by these two.
Whats ridicules is you attempting to argue against this.
A pretty good fight? Dooku is on Vjun a planet steeped in the dark side that the narration describes Dooku's bladework on this planet as:
"Malice made visable-wickedness cut in red light."
Dooku with this planet amping him up still Yoda was the clear better as the narration again describes:
"Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark drunken air, Yoda was terrible to behold."
Other then that he was tired as shit:
"Sweat ran in streams down Dooku's beard...his lips were white."
While Yoda seems to be perfectly fine.
Finally, Dooku admits he was falt out overpowered by Yoda:
"There was always the chance you would overpower me, of course...so I put a missile in high orbit slaved to this location, its falling now gathering speed."
He uses this missile as a means to escape Yoda because he was as said flat out overpowered.
Now, this is Dooku on a planet drunk with the Dark Side of the force where his powers are at their apex, the Dooku were using for this is not, and were assuming Yoda has no reservations about killing Dooku: he'd make short work of him, alone the lines of what Anakin did in ROTS.
Thats great, and would be a valid point if Yoda wasn't you know: BETTER THEN MACE.
OMG u serious?!! He did!!1 Please show me ONE SOURCE (just one and I'll concede the WHOLE argument) that says Vodo was worth two shits on a stick in a lightsaber duel, considering the dude used a high powered stick and even when Kun is a padawan the only advantage the narration says Vodo has over him is experience. So Vodo was some stupid crab who can't even hold a candle to a angry padawan, what even puts him in the same league as Yoda, why even mention this?
Again, who gives a shit. Compare Ulic to Dooku, Dooku is the obvious superior, compare Ulic to Depa, Depa is the obvious superior, even Obi Wan would tap that ass in a saber duel, so please tell me how this little feat puts Kun on par with Yoda?
BZZZZT! wrong.
BZZZZT! wrong, again so sorry.
I'd like to know where you came to the illogical conclusion that a guy who hadn't completed his lightsaber training under a proven incompetent who isn't worth a shit in a saber duel, is illogically called a master swordsman a few weeks later even though he had no extra saber practice then develops a new blade with 6 months max to train with it against scrubs is now on the the level a man who has about 50 years of experience on him, a complete master of Makashi, a guy who can compete with Mace Windu who has a custom style to beat dark siders and has mastered many other styles, who can atleast stand against Yoda.
That alone is dumb enough but your trying to compare him to a 900 year old Jedi Master who is better then the before-mentioned Mace Windu WITHOUT Vaapad, is regarded by the Jedi order as the one true lightsaber master according to PoTJ, whose blade work is described as terrible, who shitted on the before-mentioned Dooku on a planet steeped with the dark side, who murked the most powerful Sith ever in a straight up saber duel, who was described as the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever faced, a being who moves faster the three Jedi Masters attacking him at once, one of them being Depa whose own saber skills in Mace Windus own estimations exceed his own. Really dude, are you serious?
Says the man who claims Yoda is superior to BOTH Exar Kun and Dooku.
Wonderful, you've established Yoda is better than Dooku, thank you captain obvious. But the other obvious fact you failed to mention is that Yoda is not miles ahead of Dooku in saber combat, he's just better. Furthermore, it can be argued that Exar Kun is at the very least, as good as Dooku, so please tell me what makes you think Yoda will win this fight and not get wtfpwned.
Except the point IS valid because MACE is a better fighter against dark siders, than Yoda. Or more effective, rather.
Yes, lets diminish Kun by attempting to diminish his master, wonderful strategy. Kun was a saber prodigy, and was in his OWN league. Ulic, who stalemated a Jedi without the force, managed to stalemate him before Kun developed his new style and blade. Add his force mastery and combat prowess, and Kun would give Yoda a run for his life, if not defeat him in saber combat.
Wow, this isn't even an argument but PT fanboyism. Dooku is superior to Ulic? I'm glad you have an argument for that, oh wait. Depa is superior to Ulic? Wow, what a compelling argument. So your entire argument is based on your assumption, way to go.
Denial is a *****..
Yes, Vodo was a proven incompetent. Your PT fanboyism has taken over your illogical arguments. A few weeks later? Obviously the star wars timeline went completely over your head. OMG Dooku was a complete master of Makashi with over 50 years of experience! Yet Sidious, who had less experience, is superior to him in saber combat. Yet Anakin, who had FAR less experience, also beat him. That just destroyed your point, whatever the hell it was.
Yea, I'm comparing Kun's saber abilities with Yoda, not to mention force abilities, meaning they're in the same league. However, you add DOOKU in there and Yoda gets his ass kicked. And again, you show your lack of debating skills. Because Mace thinks Depa is better than him, means that she is? Well then I guess the ancient sith are gods because Kreia said so..
No, I've established that Yoda is the clear better over a Dooku whose powers are at their apex on a world steeped with the dark side, now compare the performance Dooku put out (the one where he's sweating like a mad man, half dehydrated, being pushed back and needing to throw people at Yoda to distract him and use missiles to retreat) on the before said world. To that of a Dooku who DOESN'T have the before mentioned advantages (I'm assuming this takes place on a force neutral flat surface) the logical conclusion...He gets shitted on, Yoda IS Dooku's superior BY FAR.
Please try, I need a good laugh.
Because Exar Kun is NOWHERE in their league, the more appropriate question would be why in the hell do you think Kun even holds a candle to Yoda?
He has a better tools against the dark side I'll admit that anyday, but again it doesn't matter as Yoda is a better duelist then him: Period. Mace admits this, a number of sourcebooks say this and even without Vaapad he can accomplish the same results ie: punking out Palpatine, and beating down Dooku.
I know it is a wonderful strategy.
Unless you have some valid evidence to claim that Vodo is some kind of beast in saber combat, it IS a wonderful strategy, considering the fact that the only edge he had on his angry Padawan was experience, and even still the almighty saber prodigy Exar Kun got put on his ass.
Vodo's only described advantage in a saber duel is and I quote: "the skill of long experience" please tell me how beating this average at best Jedi in a duel amounts to ANYTHING at all?
LOL, same old shit, prove up or shut up. Let me guess what makes him a saber prodigy? Cuase he beat Vodo ? Cause he stalemated Ulic? Cause he beat up on Crado and Sylvar? No, Exar Kun is no saber prodigy if thats the case and the criteria for being a "saber prodigy" is so low then people such as Sora Bluq and Sera Keto (whom both have far more dueling accomplishments then Kun, and both are very skilled) and Plo Koon all apply.
Out of context anyone? It said his "Dark Power" was in its own league, it DOESN'T say in terms of saber ability, hell it doesn't even account for the Jedi, it only accounts for him and his pathetic followers, that include the likes of the ubah powaful Krath, the super 20 or so padawans he played child molester with ("Hey guys come back to me to my place I got lots of sith amulets for you to touch!") and ahh mister Emo himself Ulic Qel Droma...some power.
Oh you mean 'rawr me so angry' Sylvar? Who greatest feats in TOTJ are killing bugs? And we've been through this before, he didn't stalemate shit, a stalemate implies that neither side would budge, you and I both know thats not what happened: Ulic ran, mounted no offense then gave up.
Oh yes the amazing new style he had 6 months to train with...are you gonna go on and on about his super duper unique style again? Newsflash unique styles aren't the be all end all of dueling as Neophyte Kyle Katarn multiple foes with rare and unique styles including Maw. If Kyle could adapt Yoda most certainly can.
What combat prowess? the dudes been in a total of what 5 saber duels in his whole life? Compared to the 900 year old Jedi Master...
I'm so sorry I expected people(you) here to have common sense not to lump people like Ulic with someone such as Dooku who was described as "one of the most powerful Jedi Masters the order ever produced in its 25k year history and an even greater Sith Lord", someone who was called a "consummate duelist" who was in "superb physical condition" for being 80. A man who completely mastered Makashi and beat Sora Bluq who is described as:
"...one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental. He even helped Mace Windu perfect the art of vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat so intense and dangerous, that to practice it was to tread perilously close to the dark side."
AND Tholme at the same time, someone who could beat Grevious without going all out (CW Grevious that is) the same Grevious who WTFpwned 5 Jedi at the same time (a party including three Jedi Masters and two Knights) who can compete with the likes of Mace Windu and Yoda.
Depa whom Mace said had better pure bladework then him at the time of the Clone Wars...ya I'd say that puts her above Ulic in the saber skills department.
What bullshit, your "argument" if you wanna call it that, is based on a bunch of useless information that Advent refuted weeks ago that STILL doesn't put Exar on Yoda or Dooku's level. Way to go
And DS with no valid argument as usual resorts back to his tired insults.
Um yeah its pretty obvious if you read the source material:
He sees the dark path Kun's going down and trys to lecture Exar Kun about how violence is wrong and such by kicking his ass...
He tries to fight a Sith Lord who had just frozen the senate by his power with a broken stick...
He takes curiously only 4 Jedi to the trial of the most heinous war criminal in the Republic who had committed war crimes bordering on Genocide...
He agrees to take Exar Kun on as a student...
Didn't tell any of the other Jedi that "Hey uhh guys my curiously strong padawans on Korriban screaming for help and is in the clutches of a Sith spirit. Maybe we should investigate a bit...just a thought."
Oh yeah and he tried to fight a freakin Sith Lord with a broken stick....
I don't know the timeline? From the start of the Deneba conclave to the crowning of Exar as Dark Lord of the Sith, the only given indication of time passed is a few weeks. Exar Kun spent a few days at most on Onderon and Dxun, little time in Korriban and dug in with Naga Sadows notes for a few weeks. Read the source material, then get back to me.
The utter crap you spew is baffling and the sad thing is you don't even see that you didn't make a single point, let alone "destroy" something. You do know you just compared Dooku to Darth f*cking Sidious the "Most Powerful Sith Lord EVER" and Anakin f*cking Skywalker the "Chosen One" a 'true' saber prodigy who went from being good to a complete Master of the art in 3 short years and learned the most dangerous styles of "every form of combat" who had astonishing physical power on the level of a droid and was fast as hell.
Yea, I'm comparing Kun's saber abilities with Yoda, not to mention force abilities , meaning they're in the same league.
De De de...
*Yawn*
Are you really that dense? Depa was Mace's padawan, helped Mace create Vaapad likely spared with Mace a number of times, I think Mace is a great authority on whos better then HIMSELF. Where as Kreia is talking about things that happened 1000's of years before she was even a thought, and is going of large amounts of here-say. You see the diff?
What you've done is somehow try and convince yourself that Yoda is miles ahead of Dooku, which isn't the case. IF that was the case then your original belief that Yoda could somehow magically take both combatants at once, would work, or at least be valid.
I've already had one with "Yoda pwns all".
That's a matter of opinion, and a retarded one at best. THe best swordsman of his era is nowhere in their league because they're PT Jedi.. Nice. And in reality he IS in their league at the very least.
Yet another simple concept eludes you. We're not debating who's the better duelist between the TWO. Who is Yoda pitted against? OH yes, two darksiders. Ergo, Mace is better than Yoda in this case. We know Yoda can beat Mace, but we also know Mace is unstoppable against dark sider users.
Yes, the almighty padawan got put on his ass. Great logic there. But please, with all the PT Fanboyism running wild, lets diminish Exar Kun because he was above and beyond everyone in their time. It seems like the common PT logic.
Vodo's only described advantage in a saber duel is and I quote: "the
Being a master swordsman, second to none, developing his saber and own style. Actually Exar Kun iS STATED as a saber prodigy so your pathetic attempts to diminish the character don't work when you argue against facts. Ulic was also a saber prodigy. But omg they're not PT so they MUST SUCK!!*$*$!
Oh boo hoo lets call non PT jedi names.. I guess I can relate to the little drugged up muppet, shaft, and sauruman. What's your point? OH that's right, your argument consists of trying to diminish the OTHER characters rather than attempting to make a case for yours. Great strategy there copernicus, what will you do for us next, juggle 10 bowling pins in a pit of fire?
No, a stalemate means they fought, and there was no victor. Would you like me to post the dictionary.com definition of stalemate, or would you rather go on your "instincts", that haven't helped you yet.
Omg only 6 months!(!*#!(*# Anakin trained for 10 years and wtfpwned someone who's trained for 60. Your point, as always, is moot. Oh newsflast butthonkey, I never even once mentioned that his unique style and saber would have ANY impact on this fight. If you plan on arguing(poorly), don't add words into my text.
Ok...Wow and? Why wouldn't I put Ulic in the same league? His track record speaks for itself. Nobody said he was better but he's definitely in the league. In saber combat that is, not force abilities. And Kun? More than likely better than him in saber abilities and definitely better than him in the force. Oh but wait, Kun only have a few years to practice force techniques and Dooku had 60, so quantity>quality according to you.
No, see if you had any evidence then it would. But unfortunately someone's opinion doesn't constitute as fact without any other sources backing it up.
REally, where did Advent place Exar Kun below Dooku and Yoda? Furthermore, being in the same league doesn't mean he's better, and in no way does it mean Yoda is somehow going to take down 2 powerful combatants in his league.
This coming from the tool that would prefer to talk trash about non PT characters, rather than forming a logical argument himself.
Yea, broken. I guess you forgot the part where he did his little force power thing and made the stick powerful again.
I have... But I'm glad you somehow can interpret Kun's vacation plans and timing.
PLease tell me where I compared Dooku to Sidious, go ahead. Your reading comprehension skills are lacking. And my comparison to Anakin apparently made my point, since you seem to parade around the fact that Dooku had decades to train with his saber and force techniques, so he MUST somehow be better than Exar Kun and Ulic.. Yet he was beaten by ANOTHER saber prodigy who 3 years earlier, he wtfpwned himself. So wait, because Anakin is a saber prodigy in the PT days, he MUST be god. But anyone who is a saber prodigy in non PT days, must SUCK.
And yet, using the only thing to argue that Depa is better than those characters, doesn't work. Know why? Come on you can get this. Oh, it's because someone's opinion, no matter how valid it is, has to be backed up by some kind of fact or proof to make it a fact.
And yet again you do as you usually do: provide no counter argument and simply make assertions assuming your opinion is correct. Here are the facts that you can't seem to grasp:
Yoda beat Dooku on Genosis in about a minute or so while he had reservations about killing him and didn't really want to harm his former Padawan.
Yoda beat Dooku on Vjun a place where Dooku's powers where at their apex and Yoda had nothing but his own skill to draw on, not only did Yoda best Dooku there but he turned Dooku into a sweating, dehydrated mess while Yoda seemingly hadn't even broken a sweat.
Now AGAIN where assuming had a battle between the two taken place on a neutral setting and Dooku has no trump cards (throwing people at Yoda, missiles, planets drunk in the Dark Side) and Yoda has no reservations about killing Dooku: the logical conclusion...Yoda shits on Dooku.
I can't spell it out any planner for you, if you still can't comprehend that then its your problem. I tire of running around in circles with you.
Strawman.
I said Yoda pwns (which he did) Dooku and Yoda pwns Exar Kun in a saber duel, his unpredictable movements ie: constant flipping and spinning would keep the two off balance so they can' mount an effective joint attack, he takes out Kun rather quickly then proceeds to decimate Dooku.
Strawman.
I didn't say anything close to that, the PT Jedi in discussion happens to be you know..."the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known." Theres nothing ANYWHERE that says flat out Exar Kun was the best swordsman of his era considering they're thousands of Jedi running around many masters its totally illogical to assume otherwise simple because he got the most screen time.
Prove up or shut the f*ck up , give me ONE source that says Exar Kun was the best swordsman of the TOTJ era and I'll concede the point. But thats not likely to happen as better debater then you namely Advent can't even give me a source that says this.
Yoda being called
"The most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known" puts him and him alone above ANY advantages Vaapad and the Shatterpoint lends to Mace Windu against dark siders.
I'm waiting DS, I'm waiting for you to prove your all this shit you keep spewing:
PROOF.
Strawman.
Since you like to ignore anything that negates your points: assuming you are correct (your not) the only source on your side that truly speaks of Ulic and Kuns saber ability is one quote from DLOTS that says they "they were like master swordsman". Now please tell me; what the hell does that mean? A master swordsman in comparison to who? Tinn, Plo Koon and Agen Kolar are all master swordsman, yet they were bested in seconds by Palpatine, Sora Bluq is a master-swordsman yet he was owned by Dooku even while he had help from Tholme, Sera Keto is a master swords-woman yet she was tooled easily by Anakin, Cin was a master-swordsman but he was owned by Anakin with one hand. Dooku is a master-swordsman yet Yoda easily handled him. Do you get it yet? Unsubstantiated, unquantified quotes mean NOTHING.
Strawman.
I've more then made a case of my own, for the blind:
And I'm attacking your position and asking you to to prove and substantiate your baseless claims, because with out any form of comparison to the other greats your 'argument' rest on hollow quotes that don't even make sense, half the time (much like you).
I'll do it for you:
2. any position or situation in which no action can be taken or progress made; deadlock: Talks between union and management resulted in a stalemate.
You are correct, it was a stale mate since they both in their own ways gave up. HOWEVER, that does NOT speak well for Ulic considering he ran the entire time and as I said mounted no offense against Sylvar.
And that proves what now? If you take the situation out of context then yes it helps you but with the fact that Anakin was a padawan facing 'one of the greatest Jedi in the history of the 25k year old order and an even better Sith' it doesn't really help. Kun had no one on his level to give him accurate training with his new blade let alone he first had to figure out not to hack his own head of with the thing, half a year at best =/= complete mastery.
I didn't say you did? I ASKED you would you do that? As you did in the last topic regarding this matter. Oh and butthonkey...stick to talks of denial and depression.
'Sexy logic': I say it there fore it is true. Provide me some substantiated proof that puts Ulic Qel Droma in Dooku or Yoda's league. Then kiddo you'll have what we call: an argument.
LAWLZ Kun had a more 'quality' training then Dooku? Dooku who learned under f*cking till that point the most powerful Jedi EVER and the the Most powerful SIth EVER. I'll take 6 months under Yoda then 18 year under Vodo anyday. Dooku has Quantity and Quality.
A character is their own best judge of their abilities in comparison to other characters, I'd trust Mace who trained numerous times with Depa to be able to judge whom is better then him and who is not. Now if Mace was saying padawan Scouts pure bladework surpasses his own then it gets suspect but this is Depa the only other true master of Vapaad. Her style alone puts her above Ulic and doubled by the fact she's actually mastered other styles.
I know, I'm that damn good. I'm basing this on the fact that Ulic had only spent at most a few weeks 'undercover' with the Krath. And its irrelevant to even argue this, Kun that whole series of events didn't last at BEST longer then a month and a half, and were given NO indication what so ever that Kun spent the time practicing his dueling skills.
No, its simply the fact that Anakin is a FAR FAR FAR better duelist then Exar Kun and Ulic put together. Thats why. Anakin Skywalker is probably (save for Luke) the best pure duelist EVER in Star Wars history. Kun and Ulic don't come close:
What am I countering? Your anti KOTOR/TOTJ bashing? Or your pitiful excuse for an argument.
If by beating him you mean he lett Dooku escape, you are correct. Exactly what does this prove? That Yoda is better than Dooku? Well, as you put it , Dee dee dee. But for Yoda to beat Kun AND DOoku, he has to be miles ahead of Dooku AND Kun, which is not the case, so go back to the drawing board.
And yet again, there's nothing that shows Yoda to be MILES ahead of Dooku, we just know that he's better.
Oh wow.. So Kun and Dooku can't adjust to Yoda's flippage, but YODA somehow WILL adjust to Kun's foreign saber and style. Wonderful argument, truly.
Why would it have to say it? It's common sense. Not only was Kun the darkest power in the galaxy, but he was miles ahead of anyone in the force. Furthermore, Ulic was the only one that came close to him in abilities, and that was before Kun reached his prime. But I love your "absence of proof" argument. Cute cop out.
IT doesn't have to say it.. That's like saying "show me a source that states Kun was more powerful than Yoda". Stupid shit like that. Guess what numbnuts, Yoda being the most devastating foe blah blah means what exactly? Oh right, that he was the biggest threat to a dark side user. Nice proving nothing jackass. Not to mention that's not really even true considering Mace is more effective against dark side users. Way to hide behind your quote.
A master swordsman with a unique style, unique saber, etc. It's not unsubstantiated jackass, there was nobody in that time that could challenge Kun or Ulic. But with your incredible logic, "omg nobody stood up to them that means the TOTJ era sucks and Kun sucks omgz!!" Yet again, it's Kun's fault that he was above and beyond everybody during his time.
Yes, everyone always claims they've made a case.. Why should you be any different.
What exactly do I have to prove? That even if Yoda is better than the other two, they are still in his league, and for him to somehow beat them both, Yoda has to be MILES ahead of them BOTH, which he isn't? Done.. Now it's time for you to prove your fanboyism with your ridiculous assumption that Yoda can somehow wtfpwn these 2 characters because he was, OMG, able to resist 3 jedi!!!
I'll do one better for you since you still aren't comprehending. A stalemate is where there is no victor. Got it? You want to get into semantics, your problem. He more than held his own WITHOUT the force, and that speaks volumes for him.
Ah, so because Kun trained himself, he's somehow weaker than Anakin because Anakin was trained by somebody. Now let me ask you something here Einstein. If Kun invented his own saber and his own style, why the HELL would he need someone to give him accurate training?
Lets see, Styles logic: He's a PT Jedi, therefore he pwns a TOTJ Jedi
Yes, this is why Dooku was beaten by Anakin, who had 3 more years of training with Obiwan. Great argument!!
Right, someone's style alone puts them above another character. Pathetic argument brought on by fanboyism. Oh and again, someone's opinion is not fact if it's not backed up by anything.
Yet again, Kun's vacation planner. YOu have no idea what you're talking about but assumptions are cute.
Yet another retarded statement from a PT fanboy. Anakin is better than Kun because he does have more soures going his way. But far better than Kun? AND Ulic? Please pass what you're smoking. Yea, Kun and Ulic don't come close because the PT fanboy said so. And what the hell is a pure duelist? Learn to debate without bias, otherwise nobody is going to take your shit seriously.
Jul 5th, 2007 10:55 PM
? Cause he stalemated Ulic? Cause he beat up on Crado and Sylvar? No, Exar Kun is no saber prodigy if thats the case and the criteria for being a "saber prodigy" is so low then people such as Sora Bluq and Sera Keto (whom both have far more dueling accomplishments then Kun, and both are very skilled) and Plo Koon all apply.
