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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Twenty sabers at a time and moving faster than can be seen? Naw. They lose the saber battle, too. ROTS Vader was too much of an emotional wreck, and ROTS Sidious wasn't impressive at all - losing to Mace and barely holding his own against Yoda.
The only way I'd say they have a chance in sabers is if Anakin is in his "in the zone" state.
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Oh yeah? RotS Sidious isn't impressive?
"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine?"
"Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them-But he could feel them in the Force."
Ye see, Luke is not the only one who can move faster than the eye can see.
"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again."
See, Mace only managed to even keep up with him due to Vaapad's effects...
"Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse."
... and even that was not enough. He needed his Shatterpoint ability in order to defeat Sidious.
In addition, Kolar is referred to be the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel as one of the greatest swordsman in the entire Jedi Order's history. Both Fisto (who tooled post-AotC Kenobi in combat) and Tiin are subsequently called also two of the order's greatest swordsman by Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti. Do you happen to remember what Sidious did to them? Yes, he utterly destroyed all three of them and proceeded to overwhelm Mace, causing him to move back to the central office. He also managed to fight Yoda very equally, and keep a steady offense in the parts we see more clearly.
Nick Gillard refers to him as a 'level 9', the highest level of swordsmanship one could achieve, along with Mace, Yoda, and Anakin. He also calls him a 'master of every weapon and every form'.
Yeah. Combine that with Anakin, 'the strongest and fastest Jedi' of his generation, capable of tooling Dooku, the 'legendary duelist' and one of the greatest Jedi/Sith in history when actually going serious, and you have a team that can defeat even Luke Skywalker. In saber combat, of course.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
I know how impressive Sidious' speed is, but I'd still say NJO Luke is faster.
Also, I tend to throw out what he did against Fisto and the others, because it screws everything up. If he was THAT much better than 3 of the supposedly best bladebeings in the Order's history, then he should have destroyed Yoda and beat Mace. They aren't THAT much better than Fisto and the like. Do you agree?
And yeah, if Anakin is 'in the zone' in this fight, they win in the saber department. I did concede that.
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Maybe NJO Luke is faster. Maybe he isn't. There isn't truly a way to fully gauge the difference between the speed levels- NJO Luke has far more raw power and a considerable mastery of the force, but RotS Sidious is a more masterful and knowledge practician of the force. And if NJO Luke is faster, it's not to the extent that he can WTFpwn him based on speed alone. He won't curbstomp him in a saber duel, that's to be sure- he'll win (Luke will), but as I've said in the LotF Luke vs. Yoda thread, it won't be a curbstomp.
Oh, and as for the Jedi Master's death? The answer: speed. They were fast and technically skilled- being amazing swordsman- but Sidious was simply waaaay faster and more unpredictable than they were (the databank refers to his speed as 'blinding'). Mace wasn't as fast or as skilled as Sidious, but his Vaapad allowed him to keep up with him and force a stalemate until he can use his Shatterpoint ability. The only person who Sidious ever fought who could match him in speed and swordsmanship based on pure, innate skill alone is Yoda. And I'd say that speaks for Sidious' skills, don't you think?
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
I'd say that speaks for Sidious' speed and masterful ability to tap into the Force. Technical ability with a saber...I still say he's overrated. That's just a personal opinion though, and I doubt there's any conclusive proof to the contrary or to back up the claim.
I would like to take the time to point out that Lumiya, a Vader-esque monstrosity (only considerably weaker) was able to defeat a post-NJO Luke Skywalker in single combat, despite the vast disparity in power and skills between them. Moreover, he was wounded multiple times by Jacen Solo, a Sith Lord whose power is stated to have surpassed Vader's only in Invincible. He's clearly top tier and arguably the greatest ever, but he's hardly infallible. Here, he's facing two prodigious swordsmen, "the most powerful Jedi Knight ever", capable of unleashing all hell upon someone of Dooku's caliber and the most powerful Sith Lord ever, capable of WTFpwning three of the Order's finest swordsmen in seconds. If he wins the lightsaber match, it will hardly be ownage.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Wasn't Caedus more powerful than ROTS Sidious? I keep hearing about what a beast he was and how overpowered they made him. And Lumiya had a very unique weapon...style difference is what did it, I'm sure.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
So is every blademaster, Sith and Jedi alike, for millenia. No doubt he's great. That's clear. But OMGasming over his saber ability? Meh. To me it's mainly speed, and NJO Luke nullifies that advantage with his own.
Darth Caedus has only been stated to have been more powerful than Darth Vader. Caedus has not demonstrated anything approaching the feats of the Galactic Emperor, though it should be stated: Caedus is a friggin' beast.
Luke had been dealing with Lumiya on and off for decades. He was more than familiar with her style and weapon. Lumiya won because she's simply a much smarter and more cunning combatant than Luke. As is Palpatine, by far.
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
NJO Luke isn't known for being an 'OMG GOD!' with technical skill, either. Kas'im and Dooku are, I believe, the best examples of "OMG GODS!' in technical skill.
However, Luke and Sidious are both better swordsman than they are. You wanna know why? Force abilities. Anakin had displayed- that due to his incredible stamina, constantly growing power, and physical strength (all granted by the force), a powerful force user can overcome a technical skill advantage in his opponent. Yes, Sidious' saber style is primarily speed, agility, and force-enhanced reflexes. But that's more than enough for someone like him. Luke can probably nullify that advantage in a 1-on-1 scenario- but this isn't a 1-on-1 scenario. Couple Sidious' 'blinding' speed and Anakin's devastating power, and you have a team that can take Luke down.
Except this isn't DBZ, and the traits associated with each individual can't be applied cohesively. Sidious, if he actually wants to live, is going to have to use that "blinding" speed against Luke, at which point he's fighting on a level that Anakin can barely even comprehend and is therefore on his own. Luke, meanwhile, is on his own capable of speeds matching or exceeding those that Sidious can achieve, has raw power (and the control to use it) that completely eclipses anything that can be attributed to either of his opponents, and to top it off, can detect shatterpoints.
In any all-out or Force-only situation here Anakin's presence becomes irrelevant, and Sidious is quickly left alone to fend off the most powerful being in history. Now, there's actually a fight there, as the only other people who can effectively compete with Sidious are Yoda [God], Bane [orbalisks], Mace [Vaapad + shatterpoint], Kyp [raw power only], and Jacen [bullshit], but it's still a one-sided battle that Luke would win.
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: On my way to the Cage
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There is the scene in Vector Prime (if not Vector Prime, then the novel following) where Luke rescues Jacen from the Vong. He is wielding two sabers and creates...well...I am gonna call it a "force tornado", or something like that.
I am gonna find the book here, its buried away in storage, and give an exact quote.
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Aug 18th, 2008 05:46 PM
