Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Sidious already dismantled far better trained opponents than Luke in instants, in the form of Kit Fisto, one of the most prodigious swordsman in the order, and Agen Kolar, one of the greatest bladesbeings in the Jedi Order's history, all superior to neophyte little Luke. Vader can't keep up with Sidious; all Sidious needs to do, within the context of a saber battle, is blitz the team, own Luke with one attack and defeat Vader in a short duel.
Overall, Sidious will likely fry Vader with lightning and proceed to remove poor Luke's head.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
So, he beats Vader in a short duel, but owns Luke with ease? The same Luke who by ROTJ was equal to Vader in sabers prior to tapping the Dark Side, and afterwards obliterating him?
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Because Vader was both emotionally conflicted and was holding back? According to Luke's later musings (can't remember the name of the novel or whatever), Vader could have EASILY beaten him if he was bloodlusted. He wasn't.
Darth Vader is a formidable duelists and his powers, arguably, are on the same vague tier as the Emperor's own. The problem is that his weaknesses are far more profound. The Emperor just obliterates the team in all cases in the Force and he will win the majority of the all out duels. The true case would be in regards to swordsmanship.
The quote comes from The Courtship of Princess Leia
Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me. Who had Luke been kidding?.......
If the recently posted quotes regarding Luke's "equality" with Vader in Return of the Jedi can be verified, then I'm going to have to change my stances a little.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
No doubt he was not trying to kill his son, in either duel. Palpatine wanted to turn him. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that Vader was fighting sub par. In Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat, it says that Luke was able to perfectly copy Vader's modified Form V. And he clearly held all advantages against him during the duel even before being enraged over Vader's "sister" comment. I'll see if the ROTJ novelization says anything more specific later.
I doubt that Luke held "all the advantages" in the duel. He certainly didn't have the experience advantage and I would also question his mind state or more specifically how close he was to the darskide prior to the sister comment after all he being baited by Palpatine to strike him down. See if there is anything mentioned about that too while your at it.
Oh and could you post the quote from Fightsaber too?
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
The Fightsaber quotes (multiple) are in Star Wars Insider 62, and I don't have them online.
I will point out that Luke didn't want to kill Vader either. So that evens them up, there. Luke kicked his ass down the stairs, parries all of his blows, turns off his lightsaber and manages to flip it on and block Vader's strike in time - all before going apeshit crazy.
I am most curious to see them, so anybody got them?
Just thought I throw this out but it does look like that Luke was fairly close to the darkside as it says here in the rotj novel prior to Vader mention Leia and more specifically when he was "beating" Vader as you pointed, and also of note is how Vader said Luke stood a shot (but as the novel clearly points at that Luke is not exactly committed to the lightside) at killing him.
Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations.
He had the power; the choice was his.
And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer
And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.
It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil.
He took one step forward.
For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
These things were mirrored, each facet, by the young Jedi who now towered above him. The Emperor, watching joyously, saw this, and goaded Luke on to revel in his Darkness. 'Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Yes! Let the hate flow through you! Become one with it, let it nourish you!'
Luke faltered a moment - then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity - gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.
He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.
In that instant, Vader attacked. He lunged half up the stairs, forcing Luke to reverse defensively. He bound the boy's blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry. Vader jumped over the railing to the floor beneath the platform on which Luke stood.
'I will not fight you, Father,' Luke stated.
'You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.
Then we have the whole apeshit Luke after that.
But essentially Luke was giving into the darkness (before the Leia comment as it states) and we know what can happen with someone giving to into their anger(tpm obiwan). I found it was interesting to note that while giving into his anger Luke he definitely questions whether he should kill Vader at the time (which is before he declare that he will not fight Vader) so I would highly question the belief that Luke wasn't going all out at the point of the duel where he knocked Vader down the steps, it certainly seems like the idea of the two fighting evenly is not exactly being said accurately given the fact of one oppenent giving into his anger for the first time. Based on the paassage imo, should the two fight all out and without the temptation of the darkside Luke would be killed. Which is of course what Luke later admits.
Yea, because he really has the experience of killing dozens of force users at this time. Oh Luke has really shown himself to be a force powerhouse by now. Not that Vader used any force base attacks save for throwing his saber, but Vader would safely beat Luke in a force fight at this point.
Last edited by Elite Hunter on Sep 16th, 2008 at 11:31 PM
why does everyone act like vader is any more susceptible to force lightning than anyone else? i mean, anyone who lets it hit them pretty much is screwed, (anakin, AOTC, yoda, ROTS) We only know of Dooku, Sidious, and Yoda (in the movies, obviously more in EU) who can catch it on their hands. Vader has a lightsaber like anyone else, why would he let it him?
The force witch who was guarding the leader of the black sun prior to Xizor. He was hit by it went to a knee the got right back up and sliced her in two all the while still being hit by force lightning.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Thanks for posting that, EH, and saving me the trouble (I just got home from class).
But, as you can see, Vader is also angry after that point and doesn't want to be humiliated. Meaning that when Luke goes apeshit, Vader was going full-out.
Luke is at least Vader's equal in sabers by ROTJ (I think his superior). Certainly, though, in an all-out, Vader would take it due to his Force prowess. And maybe that's what Luke was referencing with his quote in The Courtship of Princess Leia.
Sep 16th, 2008 07:12 PM
