Bruce Wayne (Batman: Year One Novel) Vs Adrian Veidt (Watchmen Novel)
Ozymandias threw an over 200-pounds-of-muscle adult male (the Comedian) through a plated glass window after overpowering him, Batman threw a S.W.A.T. through a brick wall. Ozymandias kicked open a heavy wooden door while it's chain was locked, Batman cracked the base of a hardwood oak tree with his legs alone using the bat-kick. Ozymandias caught a ****ing bullet, Batman was described by a S.W.A.T. as being so fast that he could be "anywhere" and proved a very difficult target for several S.W.A.T.s armed with automatic assault rifles to hit because of his speed alone.
This is a good fight, Batman, in his late 20's, possesses a working knowledge of several martial arts, proven when he observed that Cat-Woman only knew Karate, and Batman trained his body as well as his mind to perfection. Ozymandias trained his body and his mind to perfection by a later age (early 40's) as well using the Veidt Method, he also studied "martial training".
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Vs
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Hand to hand martial arts fight to the death in an alley way in the roughest part Gotham City. No weapons or prep.
__________________ In the heat of attack its passion that kills.
Last edited by \\S// on Mar 29th, 2010 at 10:28 PM
This Batman is in better shape, stronger faster, and younger than most other depictions, and possibly stronger than all save the pre-crisis Bats who supported 2000 pounds over his head. He doesn't possesses a working knowledge of paralyzing and sometimes lethal pressure point techniques like two particular depictions, but is physically stronger than the Bats in said depictions.
__________________ In the heat of attack its passion that kills.
Yes, the only Batman-based depiction of super strength, but it was pre-crisis era and every super hero had to at least be super doper uberhuman or it wouldn't have been pre-crisis and Superman would have been too much better than everyone else. Save Doctor Manhattan,
__________________ In the heat of attack its passion that kills.
I could vote for Batman and tie it up just to piss everyone off.
But I'm not going to do that because I play by the rules and right now I'm not sure who would win the fight. I don't think Batman could catch a bullet, but I also don't see Ozymandais hurling a Police Officer through a brick wall, or cracking a hardwood oak tree by merely kicking it a few times without shattering every bone of his leg and dislocating that leg's knee and hip in the process.
__________________ In the heat of attack its passion that kills.
Batman was a rookie in his firts year, he was green and unprepared, that was the whole point of the story. Of course he was more competent by the time it ends, but still, Ozymandias would both outwit and physically wreck him. I'm pretty sure he is plenty strong enough to throw a man through a wall too as he picked up a 120kg comedian, lifted him above his soulders and and threw him through some pretty thick glass. He also easily defeated rorschack and night owl.
Ozymadais and Batman, I think both their speed, their strength, their physical power were very comparable, maybe even equal. Ozymandais obviously had some advantages, his brain might have been self-trained to operate faster than Batman's, which was why he could catch the bullet, but Batman was physically identical in build and performance, but his physical advantage was that he, in this scenario, is almost twenty years younger, fresh, joints are in their prime, Batman's physique was certainly something Ozymandais definitely couldn't wreck physically.
__________________ In the heat of attack its passion that kills.
First of all, Batman was far more physically dangerous when he was a rookie, plain and simply, in The Dark Knight Returns, canon to the story of Year One because both were the same depiction of Batman by the same writer, Frank Miller, Batman had lost much of his former physical ferocity, as a rookie he could take down any number of opponents in hand to hand combat with minimal effort, he tossed a 300 pound female hooker dead over his head, tossed a S.W.A.T. through a brick wall, easily took out several opponents armed with knives and bats, took out Catwoman with a single blow, beat the shit out of two dangerous criminals whilst holding a fifteen year old in the air, stopping him from falling twenty stories with his right arm while beating two criminals to a pulp with his left hand and his foot.
When he wasn't a rookie, like in TDKR, he was always getting beat up, had to use mud to stop some 300 pound muscle bound dude, where-as his former Year One "rookie" self would have decimated that same dude in h2h.
For Adrian the opposite happened, he trained more when he was older, he strengthened his body to peak perfection and trained his brain and even as far as his brain-to-muscle-to-brain-to-muscle neuron signals and muscular responses I'm guessing, and whereas when he was a kid he got his ass handed to him by Comedian, when he was in his forties he completely overpowered the fighting man.
But still, Batman was more of a physical specimen than Veidt as of Year One, although they were close to identical as far as peak human performance goes.
__________________ In the heat of attack its passion that kills.
I think it would come down to whoever got luckier, which is why I voted for "They'd kill each-other" because as far as anyone can accurately tell, they're even, Batman being in better shape, Ozymandais able to think and react faster than Batman, Batman's superior knowledge of Martial Arts.
__________________ In the heat of attack its passion that kills.
I believe he could, although he may not be physically superior he has better martial arts and reflex feats, Ozzie was pushing the limits of peak human regarding coordination and reaction times. An older version of batman would do better in my opinion, experience and combat savvy count more than youth. Besides regular batman is only in his 30s.
IMO, the old men from TDKR would have a better chance against ozzie than his year 1 counterpart, not only because angry old people rock hard, but because he was a master tactician in every conceivable battle setting, including cqc. There was a character development point in the story for him to get beat up, but when he stopped thinking and acting like he was still young and put his savvy, experience and wits to work he butchered a monster-like hooligan who was 40 years younger than him.
Old grandmasters from the real world like Masaaki Hatsumi would not stand a chance in an UFC octagon fighting by those rules, but in a real fight they would blind, cripple and kill those kids very quickly. Real world military cqc experts ad trainers are often out of shape guys, but they would butcher those cage fighters too.
Ruthlessness and efficient movements hardwired into the nervous system by training>physical stats IMO. In a real, all out fight, anyone can incapacitate or kill a big and strong guy quickly if they know what they're doing, because humans arent very durable, so it comes down to reaction time and efficiency in connecting and causing lethal damage.
Hatsumi would actually die if he were to fight Mike Zambidis, a short, stalky, kick-boxer, he'd also die if he fought Anderson Silva or Hearting, UFC Fighters, because anything Hatsumi can do the UFC Fighters can do too, but faster, harder and more efficiently.
No, you can't make up for strength with knowledge, watch this,
Physical strength determines everything in a fight. Batman was actually bigger in TDKR and could probably max out more weight, but he was weaker in several different areas than he was in Year One, Year One Batman could take anyone that TDKR Batman had trouble beating or even surviving easily if neither Year One Batman nor TDKR Batman had any prep, in a first encounter close quarters fight, strength is the dominant factor.
But Ozymandias' body is stronger than Batman's in that it's cerebral cortex and equilibrium are trained, possible during Veidt's acrobatic exercises, to produce quicker muscle responses and relay neuron signals at greater speeds than anyone else who hadn't trained those areas.
So this muscle-brain speed, and an ability to think faster, is a physical strength factor, experience and combat savvy are definitely not as dominant of factors in close quarters combat.
__________________ In the heat of attack its passion that kills.
They cannot do everything hatsumi can do, he knows more ways to break bones, defend and counter, conceal and feign attacks and kill with a single blow than they do. The strengh required to cripple or kill a human is minimal and hatsumi is rather fast too, even his high grade disciples who are decades younger than him state he could finish them in combat.
I disagree that physical strengh is the most relevant factor in a fight, speed and lethal damage delivery are. Even in UFC style fights, grappling techniques that can be performed by much weaker opponents are still a favoured tactic and can be used to dominate much stronger people. But those UFC fights are a sport for show and have lots of restrictions true combat wouldnt have, the advantage afforded by size and strengh would be even smaller in a real fight, although the explosive power of blows does count for something. Like I said, military combat experts can be fat or scronny and still butcher bricks just the same.
Ozzie's uncanny brain/muscle memory isnt physical strengh, it's a physical speed thing directly connected to neurological wiring achieved through training and experience.
No, it's a physical strength factor, high-strength plus low-bodymass equals speed, same thing with the muscle response, it's all moderated with mass and weight, when you grow stronger you move faster and become more powerful physically. That 300 pound muscle man was far stronger than Batman Year One but he weighed over twice as much, and just couldn't move as fast and in turn could avoid or deal as much, probably couoldn't hit as hard either.
Hatsumi is old, he has less muscle than Silva or Zambidis, they are only a little heavier but their strength at least overcompensates, their bones are denser, they're more flexible, their faster, stronger, physically more powerful, more flexible even. They would kill the old man just from getting a good knee strike on his cranium, he's not fast enough to do what he "knows how to do" to people like Zambidis, he's not going to be able to touch them before he's dead with a cracked open skull.
__________________ In the heat of attack its passion that kills.
Last edited by \\S// on Mar 30th, 2010 at 01:01 AM
You can't overpower a man in arm-wrestling if you have no arm to wrestle with, same with muscle, you can't over power a man with more muscle in an arm wrestle of you have 50% of his muscle mass, you can't win a race if you weigh over twice as much as your competitors but lack the muscle to compensate for your weight.
My grandmother's not going to be able to last one second with me in a fight no matter how much she knows about hand to hand combat, a big mutant blob can't beat anyone up because his limbs might as well be T-Rex arms to his own weight. This is just how it works.
__________________ In the heat of attack its passion that kills.
In this sense that speed relates to physical strengh and light weight I agree with you, but then strengh is not the dominant factor in absolute numbers. Like I said, speed also has traning and experience components to them. Those guys can oneshot hatsumi it's true, but so can he and he's actually pretty fast and good with feigning.
Just watched the video, as a biologist I cant really say that guy knows what he's talking about. Even in the stone age, factors like stealth, acuraccy, stamina, wits and the intelectual faculties involved in making tools and understanding prey behavior and the environment still counted more than strengh for a successfull hunter/gatherer. The strongest individual is not, at all, necessarily the best hunter, and among primates he usually isn't. Even among, lions for instance, the males are twice as heavy and 4 times stronger than the females, but are still far less effective hunters. If we compare lions to african wild dogs who weight 40kg each and are even more effective pack hunters because of strategy, greater intelligence, more stamina and sometimes superior numbers it becomes even more obvious that strengh is not the most important factor in the wild. Snakes are usually considered top efficiency predators - they have some of the best success/failure numbers - and they do it through stealth and poison.
His claim that even today strengh is the most important factor in life is puzzling, the most powerfull and influential people in the world by all acounts are not the phisically stronger. And if we consider happiness the goal of life, I see no evidence that physically stronger people are happier either. Of course general health is among the most important things in life, but that's not what he's getting at there.
Fights set offensive power against durabilty and deffensive skills, not against the opponent's own offensive power like an armwrestle pits strngh against strengh. It takes very little strengh to kill and it's more important to know what you're doing, react quickly and think clearly under stress. Defeating those who are physically stronger is the basis of martial arts anyway.
Your grandmother is probably very frail and slow, so not really a good comparison. Like I've been saying over and over, one must deliver damage and avoid damage and that requires speed and applied knowledge developed through training.
I say Ozymandias, only because he would probably outwit this Batman.
"Regular" Batman would decimate Veidt but this Batman, even if he's a bit stronger that Veidt, doesn't possess his speed, and most importantly, his brain.
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Mar 29th, 2010 10:25 PM
