Hm, just after the timeskip, you've got Tsunade, Jiraiya, Danzo, Kakashi, and Gai as Konoha's biggest guns.
Rip's bullet is a problem, but she can't handle a giant summon.
I'd say it's possible for Millennium to win, but it depends on how fast the Ninja realize what they need to do against each vampire and with the right deployments can definitely win. If they don't take out the ninja who can take out their big threats first, the ninja can turn things around. Casualties will be heavy regardless, but my bet is on Konoha.
General knowledge of each side is common in vs. I'm assuming the Ninja know about Vampires and Vampires know that they're going to be up against magic ninja and thus won't be caught offguard when people start throwing fireballs, lightning bolts, and mini-earthquakes at them.
I mean, it's not like it's the only way to inflict mass damage, so even if we assume no knowledge they'll manage. Gai could do an Afternoon Tiger and blow up a few hundred of them in one go, and Naruto can fox out. But it'd be one way to gain a significant edge.
Way before. They've got fortifications, cover (and the ability to make more cover as needed), something like 10 times the enemy's number, superhuman speed and reflexes so they aren't screwed against vamps in close like humans are, lots of fireballs and similar, and plenty of strong ninja often with abilities like mind-control and illusion too.
The enemy elites, specifically Rip, The Captain, and the Dandy, are big problems and only the super-elite ninja have a real chance of stopping them, so if the vampire commanders can manage to take them out Millennium can win, but if the vampire commanders get taken out, the ninja will come out on top. The rank and file vampires aren't enough to carry the day against the higher end ninja.
You're overestimating the ninjas. Very few of them are on par with the vampires in terms of speed and reactions, and most ninjas have no real defence against automatic guns. Furthermoar, Millennium is a military organization. I am willing to bet that they'd have greater tactics then Konoha (Especially considering each and every vampire is Waffen SS with decades of experience).
The Vampires are honestly going to be superior to most of the ninjas physically, what with being able to dodge bullets and rip humans apart with their bare hands, being generally immune to most of their weapons, and hai. Guess what. Illusions dun work on vampires. Thank you Third Eye (Which also grants vampires extraordinary senses and marksmanship.)
I can almost guarantee you that Konoha will not be able to take out the elite of Millennium. Rip van Winkle alone would utterly wreck most of them, what with her bullets that can keep up and hit something going at mach 2.8 several times and penetrate titanium. Zorin Blitz will wreck most ninjas with her illusions that take a crap on most genjutsu, and The Captain. Lol Captain.
In terms of running speed, I think genin are comparable, although they are slower in reaction.
Higher rank ninja are faster than normal vamps. And keep in mind, we're talking about 10k ninja total, so more chunin+ people than there are vampires, most likely. Maybe a hundred jonin/special jonin types. A minority of them being on a level with the vampires still leaves a large number comparable and a reasonable group superior to the rank and file. There's enough of the slower ones to still be useful too.
Cover. Cover's a nice defense against automatic guns, and ninja know how that works. Some ninja can even make cover for a large group.
Only a small number have individual powers that let them defend well against guns, but even a low rank mook ninja can toss explosive tags from cover.
Konona is a military organization which has war tactics. Not all of them are vets, but plenty of them are, against foes with a wide variety of powers.
They can dodge bullets to an extent, but human Iscariot priests were able to kill them with pistols. At high casualties, but still. It's more the Third Eye that lets them judge where bullets will be, but they aren't always fast enough to get out of the way/can be taken by surprise.
Also, elemental jutsu should be able to blow them apart pretty well, and those are quite common among the ninja, and even kunai through the skull will do.
All ninja have superhuman stats like strength to various degrees. Genin may be weaker, but chunin are probably close, and higher rank ninja are physically superior. An ANBU with a sword should be able to cut them up much better than Integra.
As for illusions, they aren't immune. Zorin's illusions worked on her twice- first for a few moments when she was as part of a group, which the third eye let her break free of, then when Zorin focused on her specifically, she didn't break free at all, she lost her arm and eyes in a tactic just like Kurenai uses.
It was only when Seras gained Pip that she became immune to Zorin's illusions, and these vampires don't have familiars.
Yes, her bullets can kill most of them, though conversely there are ninja that can kill her given the chance once they find her location (and using various means to approach stealthily).
She's really the most deciding factor in the fight, how long she lasts and how many of the big ninja threats she can take out.
Conversely we've seen genjutsu stronger than that, and it's only hard to break when focused on an individual, on a group it's easy to break and breaking illusions is something ninja are trained for.
It's like having one special jonin genjutsu specialist- she's really nothing exceptional in terms of what the ninja are used to fighting.
The second most dangerous of the lot. Still, there are ways to deal with him. Kakashi's mangekyo sharingan Kamui. Danzo's Shisui eye. Hitting him with a sealing that paralyzes him. Possessing him with a Yamanaka and turning him against his comrades for a temporary but very bloody solution.
Conversely, you have people like Gai, who can rip through hundreds of vampires and only the officers might be able to stop. Danzo, who's Izanagi will allow him to ignore any attacks while dishing out damage. Jiraiya, who in sage mode is super-powerful and I doubt normal bullets would do much of anything to him. Also normal bullets definitely won't do anything to his frog summons. Hiasha Hyuga, who's Kaiten creates large craters and sends dozens of people flying, and would be immune to bullets while it's under effect, so he'd be able to wipe out squads pretty easily. Yamato and other Earth specialists who can have the ground beneath them swallow them up. The Nara clan, who can freeze the vampires in place and let genin walk up, take their guns, and slice their heads off. The Yamanaka, who can make them turn on each other.
Hellsing stuff is badass, no doubt, but don't overlook the capabilities of the opposition. The opposition here is around ten thousand superhumans, ranging from merely having high stats to having battlefield shaping abilities and stats in excess of all but a few of the opposition.
The average vampire cannot go near mach 2-3. The Wild Geese were able to shoot them when they were hopping over the minefield, heck they would've been able to just run past the mindfield, and the Iscariot priests were able to kill them as well.
They have really good reflexes but they are definitely sub-mach.
Watch the 6th OVA when they pass through the minefield.
In terms of pure movement speed, mebbe. Definately not reaction-wise though. I have seen nothing that suggests that the average jounin is a bullet timer.
Ninja have never dealt with guns, do you really think they're going to know how to react to them? Also, cover can jump off a duck, Panzerfausts >
Explosive tags that the Vampires will easily dodge. Not that they'd do any real harm.
And Millennium is Waffen SS. As in, part of the Wehrmacht, inarguably one of the strongest armies in modern history. And this particular group of Nazis are utterly devoted to war, and are led by a genius who's intellect makes him look like he's right out of Death Note.
Iscariot Priests are people who, well, basically live to kill things like vampires =| Their bullets would have had to been blessed to actually harm the vampires.
Not really. Seras in the second chapter, where Alucard considered her more of a half-human, half-undead creature then more of a vampire, was casually dodging bullets after they'd been fired. If anything, would say that the vampires, who had previously just been tanking bullets shot at them by others, weren't prepared for the Iscariot Priests.
Uh, no they won't dood. Except maybe for very powerful elemental jutsu, vampires will generally be able to tank most of their attacks. Only holy weapons are effective against them.
Not really dood. I demand chunin/jounin strength feats. Average Chunin/Jounin strength feats.
Seras Victoria wasn't actually a real vampire when they were working on her. And about that familiar thing? Yeah, Schrodinger outright says that blood is the currency of the soul for vampires, and all of the vampires in Millennium have drank blood.
Trying to stealth a vampire with the 3rd Eye is kinda funny.
Uh, not really. I have seen few genjutsu outside of top-tiers that really surpasses Zorin, who has large area-of-effect attacks.
And, uh, they do this before a gai who slaps an Awakened Seras around like nothing rips them apart, how?
Again, overestimating Ninja and underestimating vampires. Ninjas do not know how to fight against the awesome power of massed automatic gunfire and artillery. Against beings that each possess advanced regeneration and general immunity to most conventional weapons.
Oh, and uh, if Millennium has their zeppelins, then lol at Konoha.
I'm talking about the Blackbird Alucard was driving. It has titanium armor. Rip's bullets tore through it with impunity.
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I'd have to say Millenium wins. sure the 100 vampires may not be much compared to the elites of their group (the Captain, Rip Van Winkle, etc), but compared to ninja they're pretty damn fast and strong. and like what was already said, they have guns and the like so that's another advantage. and if the Captain along with the other Millienium elites fight alongside each other instead of doing their own thing, then Konoha is going to go down.
Yes. If they went mach 2-3, the fact that they were filled with mines would matter jack squat. They'd be gone before the mines detonated, they wouldn't have to jump on knife hilts in the ground. Nor would they be vulnerable to being shot while jumping on said hilts.
Definitely. Just not *that* fast.
In Naruto, people both use and block mach-speed attacks. An average jonin probably travels at near-mach speeds with a body flicker, considering how far we've seen them travel without apparent movement.
Jonin can blitz chunin can blitz genin can blitz normal chakra-less fighters.
Yes? Guns are not exactly complex- they point and make loud noise, people die. They're obviously a deadly jutsu.
Panzerfausts are a lot clumsier and more obvious than the automatic guns, not that hard to avoid, and won't work on all cover like earth-jutsu walls. They reduce the effect of cover a little, but they don't suddenly make cover not a good defense.
Explosives kill vampires dead all the time. See: Mines.
That's actually not too hard to argue... they were pretty good, but they also got all the best equipment.
Anyway, they aren't unique in being good at war in this fight is the point.
The point is, humans were hitting vampires with guns.
The genin are fast enough to fight against them, and a human would not even be near fast enough to hit a jonin with a gun.
Ninja of rank have significantly better offense than guns too, fire works against vamps.
Seras is far beyond the Millennium vamps even before she drinks Pip, she kills like 20 of 'em inside the headquarters.
An unblooded true vampire is still above any of the non-officers by a very noticeable amount.
All the Millennium vamps have drank blood, but they're also fakes, FREAK vampires. They don't get the same benefit a true vampire like Seras does, they don't have familiars.
Not really, it doesn't work on what it doesn't see, as Integra showed.
Kabuto, who's not a genjutsu specialist in the same sense Kurenai is (though admittedly still pretty good, rating of 4 out of 5), sent several hundred people to sleep.
We don't see genjutsu in use as commonly, but dealing with one genjutsu user like Zorin is hardly out of their experience and they do have several people here who are better.
And un-blessed explosives. And fire. And water. And having their heads or bodies destroyed physically.
By having their own most uber people deal with him. Danzo, Kakashi, Jiraiya, etc..
Keep in mind, they outnumber the Vampires ten to one. They can get lots of people ripped up for awhile then have their own super elite take out the vampires super elite, and still win.
They have a lot more elite people. They have a lot more people period. They do have ways to hold up someone stronger than they are until help arrives, and they do have help capable of killing anyone on the vampire side.
They fight other ninja with far more power than a panzerfaust or anything else the vamps have. They fight people who shoot lightning, needles so fast they drill through steel, invisible bullets of air that can kill people without warning, Deidara's homing explosives (one of Konoha's arch enemies has a group called the "Blast Corps" who specially in explosion jutsu, so artillery is not exactly odd to them) etc. etc..
Rapid firing bullets, while nice, is only slightly different than what they've seen before, and it does have some obvious defenses, namely it only works in direct line-of-sight and can be blocked by thick cover, which the ninja both start with and can make more of, and telegraphs where it's going to fire by where the gun's pointed. Some ninja can also get so tough they can ignore gunfire completely..
Conversely, I could say "Vampires don't know how to fight against the awesome power of a huge variety of jutsu."
The ninja have fought against stuff more similar to what the vamps have than vice-versa. There's much more flexibility on the ninja side.
Keep in mind I'm not just assuming the ninja can handle that, I'm noted specific ways they can defend and similar things they've fought before, and comparing the ninja directly to foes the vampires have fought before.
Again, I am not denying that the vampires are very powerful, but it's easy to overlook just how powerful the Ninja are.
In the plot, right now, they are fighting people who can be blown away to the point only their feet remain and regenerate to total strength in seconds.
The vampire's damage resistance is not that impressive in comparison, especially when fire jutsu is one of the most common weapons of Konoha.
The Captain and the Dandy, now they're hard to kill, but as mentioned right now they're fighting foes with similar uber regeneration. And very powerful foes at that.
Kakashi has a move that is literally a space warp. Sucking them into a pseudo-black hole will work on anything Millennium has. Danzo has a move that only requires he touch a foe, then a seal covers them and immobilizes them completely. He also has an irresistible mind control that works even on those normally totally immune to control due to having additional beings in their head to save them.
Jiraiya has the Sage Frog Song that traps someone inside their own mind forever. He also has the "Toad Mouth Bind," wherein he summons someone into a pocket dimension of a toad's stomach and the only known way out involved flames that burn hotter than the sun.
So yes, they have ways of dealing with the Captain and the Dandy. That is five different techniques that'll work, and that's not even a complete list.
We don't see a ton of pure strength type feats, but here is *Genin* Sasuke one-shotting a 50 foot bear with a kick.
By the databooks, he has a strength rating of 2 at the time, though I suspect he *may* have been up near 2.5. Iruka has a 2.5. Obito, who was promoted to chunin only because it was war time, has a 2.
Genin Kiba's physical attacks can drill through stone (here, several feet deep and wider than he is), and he's a 2.5. Somewhat exceptional genin rather than chunin, but these aren't even the strongest genin, Sasuke is definitely not known for his brute strength.
Shizune, the *medic* Jonin, has a 2.5.
By the way, there's practically no such thing as an 'average' Jonin. Practically every single one we've seen has been a named character with major jutsu.
This is a jutsu done by a barely-shows-up enemy Jonin from Stone. That is, in case you can't tell, a hundred-foot pillar of rock erupting in an explosion.
What makes a Jonin jonin level varies, some are more obvious than others, but the mook jonin is something that very much doesn't exist in the anime, even the smaller scale ones are super-good at something, and many of them have mass destruction like that.
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Mar 3rd, 2011 03:39 AM
