Gender: Male Location: Heavens of Mystic
The Birth Place
Isn't this is in the wrong thread? Team 2. No matter who fights who team 2 wins.
If Sidious fights Vader he wins due to being greater than Vader in everyway.
It sure how Luke goes up against maul but either way Sidious can just finish the job.
Then if Vader fights maul. Vader wins but if Luke fight Sidious, Luke is done for. So at the ends of the day Sidious is what brings this team to victory.
I personally do not see TPM Sidious beating ROTJ Vader. If Sidious fights Luke first, Vader will get piss very quickly and probably force choke Maul to dealt and then Sidious
Maul is irrelevant. Luke beats him then helps his father. Either way both Luke and Vader will get piss quickly if they see the other one losing and tap into their force reserve and take out their opponent and help the other for the win.
How is team 2 winning easily? First what makes you think Maul can be Luke? He was hard press to be a padawan Obi wan.
It is going to be a hell of a battle between Vader and Sidious. A piss off Luke over powered Vader what makes you think Maul could withstand. Vader will also get piss off in this fight. Its not like he going to fight Sidious the same way he fought Luke.
People seem to forget Vader had no real desire to defeat Sidious until he found out his son was alive. Sidious had some freakish mind control thing over Vader.
Because if we are taking ROTS Sidious' feats into account, he blitzed two masters before they could react, killed another within seconds, has displayed better speed and skill feats than either Luke or Vader and, the deal breaker, has lightning ( which we've already seen Luke couldn't do shit against and we know Vader is susceptible to ). Throw Maul in there who could arguably defeat either via being far more acrobatic/athletic and also displaying superior speed feats, and it's an easy win for them.
"First what makes you think Maul can be Luke? He was hard press to be a padawan Obi wan."
See above.
"It is going to be a hell of a battle between Vader and Sidious."
Not really.
"A piss off Luke over powered Vader what makes you think Maul could withstand."
Maul handled pissed off Obi-Wan alright. Raged Obi-Wan displayed superior speed to raged Luke, Luke was just physically superior. Even if he can't, what makes you assume Luke is going to get into the same state he did against Vader? Vader was taunting him, saying he would turn Leia to the Dark Side, and that's what drove him over the edge.
"Vader will also get piss off in this fight."
Why?
"Its not like he going to fight Sidious the same way he fought Luke."
Okay?
"People seem to forget Vader had no real desire to defeat Sidious until he found out his son was alive. Sidious had some freakish mind control thing over Vader."
???
Vader has always wanted to overthrow Sidious, he just wasn't powerful enough to. Discovering his son was alive gave him the opportunity, that's all.
__________________
Last edited by Trocity on Jul 1st, 2015 at 06:37 PM
Really? Those Jedi would do what to Vader? Yes they showed Sidious move superfast then somehow the film slowed drastically during his fight with Mace. So lets not get all caught up in film tricks. The objective was to show that Sidious was too much for those Jedi no matter what their skill was due to his power in the force.
Going by your logic I can say that Vader has greater displays of force choke so he must be greater than Sidious when it comes to force choke. The amount for speed you can call upon is depended on the amount of force you can call up or exercise. Luke and Vader can call upon a lot more of the force than those Jedi that Sidious blitz.
So no blitz for Sidious.
You mean a defenseless Luke who threw away his saber. Sorry but Luke and Vader both would have their sabers and would block his lighting the same way Mace did. Now you are just making me laugh with Maul. Vader would destroy Maul. Luke would overpower Maul. None of his jumping would help him.
Countered and quite easily I might add.
Yes, with Vader most likely winning.
Right lets compare padawan Obi wan to Jedi Luke. As I recall Obi wan broke Maul lance and had him running. Good for Maul there was a pit near them. Prove, Obi wan was moving faster than Luke. What, you are going to say by coming a 1983 film to one made in the 1999. Even then you don’t much of a speed difference at all.
By Luke being more powerful and having much more force reserves he should be the faster of the two.
As for Luke going over the edge. It’s a possibility if he sees Vader losing. Luke needed to go over the edge for Vader. Maul is nowhere near Vader’s level. So Luke doesn’t need to go over the edge in order to fight Maul. I really don’t recall a scene where Luke wasn’t using anger in some form while fighting. He wasn’t trained fully to keep his anger under control.
Vader got piss when Sidious torture his son. You don’t think that is a great possibility that if Vader feels his son is in danger that he will not get pissed?
Simply put Vader was under Sidious control because he had no desire to surpass or take over Sidious. He was lost as it was with no purpose until found out his son was alive.
That would be ROTJ Sidious who was more powerful than TPM Sidious. Sidious had increase in power by ROTJ most likely surpass Yoda by this time.
I have to look it up but I thought it was hinted by GL or whoever that Vader’s lack of advancement was more mental than anything else.
When I try to quote your post, it just shows up blank, so I have to use quotations again. Sigh.
"Really? Those Jedi would do what to Vader? Yes they showed Sidious move superfast then somehow the film slowed drastically during his fight with Mace. So lets not get all caught up in film tricks. The objective was to show that Sidious was too much for those Jedi no matter what their skill was due to his power in the force.
Going by your logic I can say that Vader has greater displays of force choke so he must be greater than Sidious when it comes to force choke. The amount for speed you can call upon is depended on the amount of force you can call up or exercise. Luke and Vader can call upon a lot more of the force than those Jedi that Sidious blitz.
So no blitz for Sidious."
This isn't about Vader. My point was that Sidious displayed superior speed to anything Luke or Vader showed in the OT. That is something you didn't counter and can't counter, because it's true. I wasn't trying to make a case that Sidious could speed blitz either, only that he is faster and more skilled. His on-screen showings prove this.
"You mean a defenseless Luke who threw away his saber. Sorry but Luke and Vader both would have their sabers and would block his lighting the same way Mace did. Now you are just making me laugh with Maul. Vader would destroy Maul. Luke would overpower Maul. None of his jumping would help him."
Mace Windu could barely block Sidious' lightning in the movie - he was noticeably struggling, and going by what we saw in the films, Mace is more impressive than Luke or Vader. Similarly, Yoda deflected/absorb Dooku's lightning casually, and one burst from Sidious blew his saber out of his hands and he too had to strain to use tutaminis against it. Really not seeing how Luke and Vader will just casually block it with their sabers as you are suggesting.
"Countered and quite easily I might add."
This... "Now you are just making me laugh with Maul. Vader would destroy Maul. Luke would overpower Maul. None of his jumping would help him" is easily countering my point? Not really, you didn't provide any evidence whatsoever, you scoffed at my point and then just reiterated more nonsense.
"Yes, with Vader most likely winning"
Lol. Well, why?
"Right lets compare padawan Obi wan to Jedi Luke. As I recall Obi wan broke Maul lance and had him running. Good for Maul there was a pit near them. Prove, Obi wan was moving faster than Luke. What, you are going to say by coming a 1983 film to one made in the 1999. Even then you don’t much of a speed difference at all."
I'm not sure you quite understand what's happening here - this is the "Movie versus debate" section. We go by what happens, on-screen, in the films. I don't need to prove it, you can go and watch the fight sequences and clearly see Obi-Wan is faster.
"By Luke being more powerful and having much more force reserves he should be the faster of the two. "
That's not how this works. See above.
"Vader got piss when Sidious torture his son. You don’t think that is a great possibility that if Vader feels his son is in danger that he will not get pissed?"
What danger could Luke possibly be in? Isn't he going to stomp Darth Maul while Vader kills Sidious?
Again, we are going by the MOVIE feats, there is no EU or novel discussion in this debate.
"That would be ROTJ Sidious who was more powerful than TPM Sidious. Sidious had increase in power by ROTJ most likely surpass Yoda by this time."
Well yeah, ROTJ Sidious blasts Luke with lightning - all TPM Sidious did was talk.
@Trocity: The same thing is happening to me when I try to use quote on your post.
Simply put if you are going to take that approach to this discussion then we are going to have to agree to disagree. Movie feats are used yes but in context.
So if I was to say that Vader could force choke Maul and Sidious to death, based on what movie feat from Sidious or Maul would you use to proved that false? However, I know that would not be true for Sidious because of his power level and the explanation of how the force works from various different resources.
I also gave you the example of comparing visuals from a 1983 movie to that of a 1999. It isn't fair. So to be fair you have to go off of what you know the director was looking to portray.
MOS during combat move faster than what is displayed in Reeve's version of Superman. Does that mean he was faster? No because the reality of it is that Reeve's superman was moving extremely fast during combat however the difference in special effects clearly makes MOS seem faster.
There is nothing that I mentioned that was based upon EU. During the clone wars Sidious did not think he was strong enough to confront Yoda. He did in ROTS. Thus showing he increase in power.
TPM Sidious is not on the same level as ROTS or ROTJ Sidious. It is very possible that ROTJ Vader is on the same level or more powerful than TPM Sidious.
As for Maul, he would be a great battle for Luke but a Luke going all out is much different from the one that was holding back when fighting Vader.
Last edited by Kotor3 on Jul 1st, 2015 at 10:03 PM
Strictly going by canon feats and movie feats only TPM Sidious has shown very little
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Sure but didn't Lucas himself say that the PT was the golden age of the jedi, height of their power, etc. and that he wanted to show how well the Jedi from that era could fight when he made The Phantom Menace? And that Vader was a cyborg shell of his former self, and when he and Kenobi fought they were far past their prime? If we go solely by movies but take that in context, he's worse than ROTS Anakin, Kenobi, Dooku, Mace, etc. for sure, and arguably Maul and Jinn to be frank. ( Might be a stretch but you see what I mean )
__________________
Last edited by Trocity on Jul 1st, 2015 at 10:11 PM
I thought GL's comment was more in reference to the fact that the Sith were supposedly no more and there was balance in the force.
In ANH Vader clearly states to Obi wan that his powers are at there peak. "When we met I was but a student. Now I am master." "My powers are at there peak". He does tell Obi wan that his powers are weak". Showing also that his powers had increased.
KMC Community Forums
Jul 1st, 2015 01:37 PM
