Leia has been kidnapped and Luke runs to save her. How far does he get with
1. Rest between rounds.
2. No rest between rounds.
Sith Team
Ventress
Savage
Maul
Dooku
Pre-suit Vader
Boss: TPM Sidious
Jedi Team
Ahsoka tano
ROTS Obi Wan
Boss: Mace
Please note that Vader and Yoda stated that Luke did not need anymore training. Yoda and Obi wan state that Luke must kill Vader and send him to do so. From a canon standpoint Luke is powerful and skill enough to face and defeat an ROTJ version of Vader.
Yoda and Obi wan are able to communicate with Luke as ghost so there was no reason to send Luke if he was not ready.
first off, TPM Sidious has no feats so thats a really weird choice for a Sith boss
He gets stopped at Dooku. The only reason Anakin beat Tyranus was that he was stronger when he tapped into his Dark Side, granted Luke did the same thing to Vader but he stopped short and Vader wasn't fighting at his fullest. Dooku going for the kill would fillet Luke. Plus Luke has absolutely no answer for Force lightning, nobody thought to teach him that (looking at you Yoda).
He gets stopped at Obi Wan, Kenobi was skilled enough to take on a fully immersed dark side Anakin at the height of his abilities and won due to crazy defence skills on Obis part, he also easily dismantled Grievous; the greatest Jedi killer of the Clone Wars. Luke was a pretty choppy lightsaber duelist and he lacked the polish that golden age Jedi had, let alone the arguable third best Jedi duelist of the Order.
Last edited by relentless1 on Apr 26th, 2016 at 11:48 PM
He definitely can lose to either but could also win. Dooku was overpowered which Luke could definitely do. Luke can use his saber to block lightning. There is no reason for him to throw his saber away.
I don't agree that Anakin was fully immersed in the dark side. He was trained as a sith and didn't even have a red saber. He was very conflicted and was nothing more than an emotionally unstable Jedi.
He was nothing like the fighter that fought Dooku. So I don't see that win as an impressive win for Obi wan.
Well the fight Choreographer and writer of the novel disagree with you. They both stated Anakin was a level 9 as a Sith in skill. Which was higher than his 8 as a Jedi. Further, it was VERY impressive what Kenobi did to Anakin. Going by the people that actually matter, for Kenobi (who himself was conflicted in killing Anakin... and was stated in the book to be holding back at first... on the contrary Anakin was going for the kill) to still beat Anakin is incredibly impressive. He would beat Luke as well.
The book contradicts what was shown in the movies which is the highest form of canon.
In the movies Obi came there knowing he would most likely have to kill Anakin. Anakin gave Obi wan a choice to join him. Its clear by the way Anakin fought Dooku that he wasn't the same fighter when he fought Obi.
The movie has a script and visual representation which is the highest form of canon. So, please with the quotes from other sources the contradict the script and visual representation of the movie.
Totally and completely incorrect on the canon progression. The ONLY parts of the book thrown out are the ones that directly contradict the movie. Anakin being a 9 as a sith, I no way contradicts the movie. Neither does Kenobi holding back at first. That contradicts absolutely nothing in the movie. It seems you need to understand the progression of canon first.
I understand the progression of canon and your interpretation of what conflicts and does not conflict I do not agree with.
Luke's and Vader's fight it is clear that they were both holding back by the dialog between the two. Yet, you are stating the same for Anakin's battle with Obi Wan? (Early in the fight Obi Wan tries to thrust his saber through Anakin)
Since you like to refer to the book, tell me please, since Anakin was a superior fighter (according your references) in his battle with Obi Wan in comparison to Dooku, how is it that Anakin's superior force reserves did not allow him to quickly over power Obi Wan who is a inferior fighter to that of Dooku?
Last edited by Kotor3 on Apr 27th, 2016 at 06:52 PM
You are free to disagree, but the authorities on the matter (above you or I) disagree with your stance.
That's easy to explain. The reason why Dooku gained the advantage over Kenobi was due to his force powers. You'll notice that by the time of ROTS where Kenobi was a master of Soresu. Dooku couldn't penetrate his defense via the saber. It's noted in the novel that Dooku was going to be overwhelmed if he didn't take out one of them. He took out Kenobi via the force. Clearly Kenobi's force defense isn't as good as Anakin's. By proxy though... Anakin's force powers aren't on the level of Dooku.
You'll notice when they locked up in a force display, Anakin and Kenobi stalemated. Showing Anakin doesn't have good offensive force powers, which again, is the way to break through Kenobi's defensive style.
Then you add that Dooku underestimated Anakin... Dooku was already drained of his reserves while fighting Kenobi and Anakin.. and lastly Dooku's style is susceptible to powerful striking forms. Which as you should know, is the exact kind of form Anakin uses. Thus his stamina was constantly getting drained.
Kenobi's style on the other hand is tailor-made to prolonging a fight using his defensive form and look for an opening. Kenobi being much younger than Dooku also had better stamina than him, thus he can endure the assault longer.
All this points to the same thing.. styles make fights just like in real life. Dooku also had context to his loss. There ya go.
First off, is not the battle according to the novel between Anakin and Dooku more fierce? Was it not due to Anakin's superior force reserves that he was able to overcome Dooku so quickly?
Even the movie shows that Anakin simply overpowers Dooku.
Dooku is superior to Obi Wan in the force and saber department. All of your excuses are devoid of the force. Youth and skill, only can go so far if the two are close in terms of force reserves, saber skill, and command of the force. This has been shown throughout the movies.
Obi Wan is not close to Anakin in terms of force reserves. Due to the long battle Anakin should have gotten stronger and faster while Obi Wan should have been weakening especially since you said that Anakin was superior as a Sith.
However the same factors that made Dooku lose did not happen. Anakin did not become stronger and Obi Wan weaker. Why? Let me answer, because Anakin could no longer tap into his reserves like he did against Dooku due to the conflict inside of him and being untrained as a Sith and in the darkside of the force.
So even if you want to say he was a 9 as a sith he was in no shape of form a superior fighter to the Anakin that fought Dooku.
What are you babbling about here? I mean did you even make a here? You keep talking about which fight was more fierce this and that... like okay?
It comes down to this indisputable facts on why Anakin beat Dooku?
1. Dooku underestimated Anakin
2. Dooku was never supposed to even kill Anakin in that scene, he was only testing him. Thus from the jump he was holding back
3. Dooku stamina was already taxed by having to fight off Anakin and Kenobi. It was literally said that he had to split them up or he would lose.
4. Dooku's form is vulnerable to powerful strikes, which is exactly what the form Anakin uses relies on.
All of those contributed to Dooku losing. Anakin according to sources more important than you, say Anakin was more powerful as a sith. That is the version Kenobi fought. We can speculate about Anakin being conflicted this and that, but the reality is, he was more powerful and Kenobi was also conflicted. So that is a wash. Kenobi simply beat him thanks to his style and ring generalship. It's really that simple.
I said nothing about force reserves, which again I don't know why you keep saying it. I said Kenobi and Anakin were equal in offensive force powers. Specifcally TK during combat. They locked up, and it was a stalemate. To say otherwise IS going directly against canon.
Now don't get me wrong, in a fight Dooku beats Kenobi, but that is mostly because of his force powers and Kenobi's lack of force defense. If they just squared off in sabers only, it would be a long drawn out fight. Kenobi is made to take Anakin more than Dooku and it's really that simple.
the way I saw it was Anakin had let go of his control and allowed his arrogance and hate to fuel his fight with Obi Wan, this made his fighting style a little less crisp that it should've been while Obi Wans was on point. When Anakin fought Dooku he was much more in control.
This is evident in how he actually beat Dooku; he caught him in a slick maneuver that got both of Dookus hands.
When he fought Obi Wan he was all over the place; jumping and flailing around in a blind fury trying to kill Kenobi.
Okay? not to sound like a dick here, but it doesn't really matter how you see it. I mean we can all see what we like, that is the beauty of movies. However, what the director, screenwriter and author think count for a lot more. You act like Anakin wasn't always arrogant and brash. That is the EXACT thing that got him in trouble the first time with Dooku. Got him captured trying to rescue Kenobi. That's him. Kenobi is always the calm composed one, and that is to his credit, not something to brush under the rug in a matchup between the two.
Kenobi simply beat him, and did so while himself conflicted, and that is a great feat.
im not trying to take anything from Kenobi, I think that the reason he was able to beat Anakin was exactly because he was composed against Anakins anger.
The whole fight ended because Obi took the high ground and Anakin was arrogant enough to think he could make the jump unscathed.
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Two problems I have with your stance of Kenobi being hindered due to being conflicted, is his personality. While he did love Anakin he realized the threat he posed, and he saw the atrocities he had committed. Killing younglings, wipping out the Jedi order, almost killing Padme right in front of him, and then his talk with him right before the battle where he speciffacly says "I WILL DO WHAT I MUST." So I guess you can say that he was just saying that, but not only did he say that from the start, he backed it up by https://youtu.be/40HhaIJ0QVw 2:14-2:18, 2:53-2:56. Then you see he is the agressor on the force battle, so I'm not seeing why someone who would be conflicted/holding back would be the agressor on any front. So while I do agree that Obi Wan didn't want to do it, he knew what had to be done, and he went down there and he handled business, he wasn't holding back caused he defintly needed every trick, all the skill everything he had to defeat Anakin. The one you can say was really conflicted was Anakin. If Anakin were in the state of mind he was when he fought Dooku, Anakin would have won. Not a stomp due to Keneobis familiarity with Anakins style, and Kenobi's purely defensive style.
This is why I find it hard to have a serious conversation in general on this forum and can only do so with certain individuals. You take parts from the novel and movie and spin it to fit your argument.
Fact - No where is the movies does it state Dooku is testing Anakin.
Fact - Novel Dooku is testing Anakin. However when it became clear that his life was in danger he was no longer holding back and fought for his life.
Fact – Anakin’s superior ability to pull from the force and his stronger connection to the force is what allowed him to defeat Dooku.
All the other things you mentioned are irrelevant to those facts. You still have not answered why Anakin was not able to pull from the force in the same way in his battle against Obi Wan which was much longer and fierce.
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Also your ridiculous comments about it doesn’t matter what we saw on screen you go by what the director, screenwriter and author thinks, well that is what acting is for to display what is written visually without a person having to read a book. The screen and script is law unless changed. If they did not like what was displayed on screen or the dialog in the script then they should have done a better job.
Fact Anakin was conflicted and untrained in the darkside. The darkside did nothing but give Anakin an adrenaline boost. That did not make Anakin a superior fighter. He was visually out of control.
Irrelevant to the facts I mentioned. That is what I said. Your whole point is that Anakin was a superior fighter when he fought Obi Wan then to the fighter he was when he fought Dooku.
Your main point is because he was a 9 as a sith. Great his saber skills increase. I already said the darkside gives you an adrenaline boost. How did that make him a superior fighter?
Not surprise by your response seeing that you never answer my original question.
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Apr 26th, 2016 05:23 PM
