Grey Skies are gonna clear up...put on a happy face
SHEESH! The commentary wasn't even that bad people! Surely all of you know that you have to read what the writers say, think about and then re-read it. What were you expecting from them anyway? For them to admit that J/E was and always was there intention, that in AWE they'll have a lavish ceremony and will eventually have 4 pirate children? No, they don't admit anything like that. Nor do they give any sort of hope to W/E either for that matter. If anything they make some sly comments that hint at what is that plagues the relationship in the first place.
Here is my take on the commentary:
Most of the commentary deals with Elizabeth's actions and emotions. There's very little said about Jack, which makes me suspicious. All they in fact did confirm was that Jack cares for her more than he's willing to admit. And another thing, they did very little to confirm or clear up what the compass actually means. Which tells me that it will come into play in AWE and it will finally be explained.
But let me clarify a few of the statements that they make. First of all, the whole thing with the compass. I think what they revealed in the commentary is SOOOOOO importatant and kind of cool. First of all, they as much implied that Jack knows that the compass points to Elizabeth, and that it will always be so. Secondly, they implied that Jack knows that the compass points to the chest the entire time for Elizabeth, insinuating that Jack still cares for Elizabeth, even though there is no hope in his mind, of her ever returning those sentiments. Essentially, his love is a very unselfish, quiet and pure love. It's unwavering and steadfast, wouldn't you say? So, when you compare that kind of love to Will's love, you get a very telling picture. His love is not as steady, even though he says that it is. That is incredibly important!
Elizabeth's action in DMC are meant to be callous because I still believe that though it's not an exact parallel, the story is meant to be similar to Calypso and Davy Jones. Spoilers that I've heard on the net seem to confirm this suspicion. This doesn't mean however that Jack will rip out his heart, but I think that's part of what's going to be at the center of importance in AWE. They have to increase the dramatic tension between the two characters in AWE because so much of the tension was already resolved with the kiss in DMC.
Now, Elizabeth and the compass. My opinion is that the compass is essentially void. Forget about the compass and where it points, whether it points to the chest or not. The writers said something that is VERY interesting. They said that on the island, Elizabeth believes that she has betrayed Will. She'd done nothing much at that point to betray him, and yet that is what she believes. Interesting, isn't it? Essentially, she's projecting her emotions onto the compass, and thus misinterprets what she's seeing. The fact that she's believes herself capable of betraying Will insinuates that she doesn't trust herself with Jack, and that she kills Jack because he'll essentially always be this horrible temptation.
That says a lot about their relationship and Will. Like I've been saying, even if she was only lusting after Jack, there are some massive issues with her relationship with Will.
There are other comments that are equally as interesting. They talked about how J/E's relationship is built around challenge. They challenge each other in this game they play at outwitting one another. The kiss is yet another example of that game. The writers very clearly pointed out that her chaining him to the mast was a call back of how they first met in POTC 1. If you think about the way that the writers used call back with Jack, the scene has a very different undertone. They said that they used the why is the rum gone line to imply that Jack has Elizabeth on his mind. The moment she burned the rum was when he was first attracted to and infuriated by her. So, why can't the same be said of Elizabeth? In chaining him to the mast in a way that's similar to the way that Jack uses Elizabeth to escape in POTC 1, the writers admitting that Jack has been on her mind. The moment of their first meeting, and his using her to escape, was a moment in which Elizabeth has thought about and in which she was first attracted/infuriated with him.
Also, the commentary brings up an idea. Each of the characters has to lose the false ideal that they cling to in order to truly live. The writers have said that Jack sold his soul for the Pearl, and in doing so lost his identity. For him to get it back, he has to let go of the Pearl, aka his false ideals regarding what freedom is. In order for Will to acheive balance he has to let go of something that is essentially the equivalent of the Pearl in terms of importance in his eyes, i.e. Elizabeth. His love of her is a false ideal, and I think this will be shown in AWE. It is a love based on an illusion and not who she really is. Which brings us to Elizabeth. The end of DMC and the choice she makes is more deeply symbolic than her simply choosing Will over Jack. What she essentially did when she sent Jack to his death was attempt to murder her Pirate self. She sold her soul for a false ideal. (Will's love) and in doing so, her character cannot achieve balance.
Might I also ask you to recall what the writers have said about the resolution of the triangle. The triangle will resolve itself in such a way that we'll applaud the most correct choice. At the moment, if you also take the AWE script into consideration, who's love seems to be the most correct choice? The man who can speak the words, and go through the motions of love, or the man who loves without any hope of earning love in return?
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
Also Savvysparrow. It was pointing to the Jack on the pearl for her apparently?
Also. I feel that AWE..the title itself sort of implies..goodbye to the old world hello to the new.
I've often thought that Jack and his pirate ways was the old world..Elizabeth is the new
with Will it's Elizabeth and the new is his father
and Elizabeth its Will but the new is Jack.
it's basically refusal of the call and first threshold...all characters have stepped over that essentail moment in the story before DMC ends..
T&T say they are not going to be using the 12 steps..well I dont really believe that..IMO they are just continuing the steps from where they left off with DMC instead of starting over again with AWE..that is why its not following the steps the traditional way..
Last edited by LovelyOne on Nov 19th, 2006 at 08:28 PM
well, my theory is, becauseit was pointing to the chest all the time on the beach, ment that it was right next to her, and she thought that it was pointing at jack.
on the pearl, my theory is that she wants a way to save will, and jack is her way to save him.
__________________ <3 Tommy and Doug McQuaid <3 <3 21 JumpStreet <3
I tend to agree with you that people need to not jump to conclusions about the commentary, but I do have to take issues with some of what you have said.
And you base this on what? The fact that Will wants to save his father as well as be with Elizabeth? That does not mean that his love for Elizabeth has changed or that his love for her is any less than it has ben before.
Right now Will is hurt, rightfully so, by Elizabeth kissing Jack. His whole life has been filled with loss and heartache, and the shift we see at the very end of the film is not merely a change from loving Elizabeth to saving his father because of the importance to him, but it is a way to buffer himself against the pain.
If he feels rejected by Elizabeth, then he's going to cling to the one thing (the only thing, I might add) that he has left in the world; his father. It has nothing to do with his love being more constant.
The only person who seems to have that issue is Elizabeth.
Isn't even feeling remotely attracted to another man somewhat of a betrayal? She flirted with Jack and might have kissed him earlier...to Elizabeth, who has many idealized visions of what the world should be (i.e. that all pirates are romantic and fun, that good people never get punished, etc. ), and in her world, I'm sure, love is supposed to be unchanging and you don't become attracted to pirates.
I don't see how her uncertainty suddenly becomes a whole slew of 'massive issues'. It means that Elizabeth is growing and learning, but it doesn't mean that her relationship with Will has problems.
Perhaps her love for Will has changed, perhaps it hasn't. I'm not debating for any particular ship; I just think that some of your interpertations are not fair or correct.
Where do you get this idea that Will has been in love with an illusion? He hasn't. What happened in DMC is not that he has never seen Elizabeth's ruthless side (he saw it many times in CotBP). I don't think he ever imagined that Elizabeth would kiss another man, let alone Jack Sparrow, but I don't see how that is an 'idealized' vision for the person you wish to marry.
I also don't think that Elizabeth sold her soul for a false ideal of love in Will. Elizabeth's ideal is that she has a moral compass and everything she does is justified, as long as it is for the greater good. Now she realizes that isn't so. Perhaps she loves Jack, perhaps she doesn't...as I said, I am not defending for any particular ship.
What I am doing is defending Will, because I'm irritated that no matter what you J/E shippers say, you can't ever say anything nice about him. If you can't defend your ship without demonizing another character, then you're either looking at your ship the wrong way or you have nothing to stand on.
Everything you have said somehow makes Will seem like a lesser, 'worse' kind of character, and it's quite annoying. Can you not come up with any arguments for your ship where you don't do that? I haven't seen one yet that doesn't make some attempt to put down Will.
So, while I agree not all things are hopeless for J/E shippers, I have to disagree with every bit of analysis that you wrote, simply because it makes Jack and Elizabeth seem rather glorified, and yet you manage to basically trash Will's character in the process. Not only that, but I think you've lost sight of who the characters are and how they work in your attempt to prove your ship. You've changed them so much that I'm not even sure we're talking about the same movie.
The only thing I did say is that the love Liz feels for Will seems to be remarkably platonic (and yes, that IS my opinion), so if this offends you, read at your own risk.
Whoa, I wasn't attacking Will. Nothing in what I wrote remotely attacked Will as a character. I actually really do feel sorry for him, because I don't believe he deserves his fate.
What I did attack was W/E relationship. At the moment, I believe their relationship is based on relationship of false ideals. They're two people who love what they think they see in each other. Elizabeth is very afraid of disappointing Will and vice versa. Do you not see that it's a problem? They're clearly trying to live up to each other's unrealistic expectations and end up failing in the process, or at least, Elizabeth thinks she does.
That doesn't mean that they both won't wake up, smell the coffee and see each other for what they really are, but that does have to happen for their relationship to succeed. It's not working the way it was.
Also, my ideas about Will are based on the rough draft of the AWE script. In that, he's very harsh in his judgments of her, and seems to have assumed the worst without so much as questioning her about what he saw on the Pearl. Sure, he has a right to be angry, but he doesn't seem to care to find out why it is that Elizabeth kissed Jack in the first place.
I again disagree. There is nothing false in their 'ideals' of each other...in fact, I don't think that they have any ideals other than that they want to be with each other.
And you do attack Will's character, simply by stating that his love is not comparable or as 'good' as Jack's. You attack Will's character by stating that Elizabeth is not important to him, or no longer as important to him. You make Will sound as if at the first sign of trouble, he just runs off or doesn't care, and that annoys me because there is absolutely no basis for your argument.
You make things work for J/E, while completely ignoring everything that is good in W/E. That absolutely drives me crazy. I could very easily make an argument for J/E that in no way would ever make Will out to be so weak-willed.
Everything you post attempts to cast a shadow of Will's character. You've made him seem inconstant, indecisive, weak, stupid, and insincere...and that was only on this page.
Will doesn't just say that he loves Elizabeth and 'go through the motions'...everything he has done has been for her. Risking your life for her? Is that simply 'going through the motions'? If that is, you have an odd way of defining what it is to love someone.
Again, except for some dreadful characterization of Will and some odd interperations of love and Jack and Elizabeth's motivation, you have nothing to base any of your arguments on a J/E ending. Nothing you said even remotely matches what TnT have said about the characters.
I could write equally as much about Will, but I chose not to at this point because the post was intended to cheer people up.
Secondly, not everything I've ever written here has bashed Will. In fact, many times I've been the voice of temperance defending Will with you, if you'll recall.
Thirdly, if you can't see that Will is not a knight in shining armor, that he has his moments where he is inconstant, indecisive and weak, then I would say that you're not willing to see the character that has been presented.
And last and certainly not least, there is no excuse for your jumping down my throat in this manner. My intentions with this post were simply to reinvigorate the emotions of the J/E ship by pointing out some subtlties that were missed in previous interpretations of the commentary which were equally balanced for a W/E perspective as well.
So, if you want to debate with me about my opinions, fine. But that wasn't my intention with this post and for you to lump me with the rest of the J/E shippers and insinuate that everything I post is to attack Will, then you're doing me a great disservice as I've come to your defense and Will's on numerous occasions.
When talking about the commentary, it appears to have been generally overlooked that it is mostly about Elizabeth’s feelings. We knew all along she doesn’t love Jack and it has also been said before that the only way to make Elizabeth kiss him was to create a situation in which the kiss would save Will. So nothing new here.
Now TnT went a step further: They said she was slaking her lust (yes, she was lusting after Jack) and drowning her guilt. Remarkably, not her guilt for killing Jack but for feeling lust for somebody other than Will. Even though the compass does point to the chest for her while on the island (though I think this was very badly done in the movie), she thinks for some reason that the compass points to Jack and that her feelings actually betrayed Will. Interesting, isn’t it? So what Elizabeth wants is not so much Will but to want Will. She lusts after Jack, she knows this and she fears that in her mind, she has already betrayed Will.
Now her actions on the Pearl get really selfish; she kisses Jack and chains him to the mast because:
1. She wanted to know what it tasted like (“slake her lust”)
2. She wanted to remove the temptation Jack represented
3. She wanted to save her beloved William (but while I don’t think there’s only the slightest doubt she loves him, I am still confused about the true nature of this love; keeping in mind that her lust seems to be directed towards Jack and NOT towards Will, it seems remarkably platonic)
These were her REASONS for kissing him, but obviously, it didn’t work out the way she had planned:
She had to admit that she does feel something, that she does have this desire as well. But then she holds back.
So the writers admitted she felt something when she kissed him – and that’s what almost made her kiss him again. So her plan actually backfired and BECAUSE she felt something, she can’t live with what she’s done. It’s not just about having killed another person, it is about having killed someone you felt something for. (Ted even said on wordplayer “Someone you may love”). Please note that these feelings probably don’t play into the rest of DMC (because she apparently wasn’t aware of them BEFORE the kiss), but into AWE, so it’s not surprising they didn’t discuss them further.
And the most interesting thing about the commentary: Jack’s feelings are rarely addressed. We don’t know how he feels about all this. Alright, he doesn’t want to want Elizabeth, but we knew that before, didn’t we? He regarded their flirting as a game, which, interestingly, appears to have gotten out of hand. I think it’s rather clear that Jack’s feelings for Elizabeth are beyond lust, he feels something else, something probably much deeper. For him, the compass wavering back and forth is not a temporary phenomenon, but something he seems to have experienced for months! And notice the compass still wavers while he’s in mortal danger: Elizabeth is obviously as important to him as saving his own life. Now the commentary says that Jack knew all along that the compass for Elizabeth never pointed to him. This means he knew all along she didn’t love (or even want) him. But he returned to the ship anyway. I think Jack was really being unselfish here – he knew that there was nothing in it for him, but he sacrificed his freedom and his safety anyway.
When she kisses him, he doesn’t move and he doesn’t touch her – she’s the active part, he only kisses her back. I wonder if he knew what she was doing and simply didn’t mind because the kiss was more important to him than the intentions behind it. In the leaked script, he appears to feel really miserable because the kiss meant more to him than most things he experienced in his life:
This life we have is cruel, Will, it mocks us we’re granted just a
taste, if we’re lucky, and then it’s ripped away. I’ve been on the
path to the Land of the Dead. I’ve been there and I’ve done that, I
don’t care to do it again.
Since they were talking about “wanting to know what it tastes like” in DMC, I guess this line is about the kiss and about the kiss alone. To me, it seems obvious that Jack sacrificed all kinds of interpersonal relationships for his freedom, and when Elizabeth kisses him, he finally realizes what he’s been missing in life – but it’s apparently too late.
In AWE, Elizabeth is said to treat Jack with coldness and cruelty, which is actually a good thing for our ship. If she treated him with respect and kindness, like an old friend or a good acquaintance, we’d know that there are no feelings whatsoever involved anymore. But Elizabeth seems to feel uncomfortable, she doesn’t know how to behave in Jack’s company and there’s obviously a lot of tension left to be resolved. What happened in DMC is neither forgiven nor forgotten, so it’s absolutely impossible that the subject of J/E will be dropped completely in AWE.
(See also the leaked scene which might be real, judging from rumours I’ve heard lately)
On a related note, Gore Verbinski said that Jack will act really strange in AWE, but before he gets too silly, they’ll give him “a little heartache”. So I think we have quite some hints that might point towards Jack being unhappily in love with Elizabeth. I don’t think this is a bad thing since it is actually very interesting to see how the character will react to a situation like that.
Besides, Elizabeth discovers at the end of DMC that she “feels something” and that she “does have this desire”. So I actually think we may have lost a battle but not the war
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
OOMMMGGG...me thinks Johnny..."may" have slipped up on something during the special features of the DVD..his expression once he said it says it all IMO
Last edited by LovelyOne on Nov 20th, 2006 at 04:55 PM
@LovelyOne: You know, I don't thinks it's particularly polite to write things like that into the forum where everyone can read them and subsequently starts to wonder what you're talking about (and knowing perfectly well you won't tell).
Well, apart from that, maybe you could just post what Johnny said ... that would be really kind, you don't need to comment on it, just the quote and I'd be perfectly happy.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
sorry I was just excited and didnt know what to say, I will comment on it..[SPOILER - highlight to read]: well most people know about the possible child ending..look for the captain "Jack Sparrow from head to toe" feature..and when he talks about whats on his belt..look at what Johnny says and does in that feature
Last edited by LovelyOne on Nov 20th, 2006 at 05:05 PM
I have to disappoint you, I never posted at KttC ...
Furthermore, I am sorry I can't watch the scene myself at the moment ... you know, there're countries where the DVD hasn't been released, yet ... but I think I know now what you're talking about (the fertility-thing?). Thanks anyway.
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Grey Skies are gonna clear up...put on a happy face
Nov 19th, 2006 07:43 PM
