ROTS Anakin is probably the best duelist that ever lived up until ROTJ, then Luke becomes the best. Anakin is better then Vader, faster, has a bigger connection to the Force and therefore he can sense and predict lightsaber strikes better then anyone else.
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May be so (I would put Yoda above ROTS Anakin in saber battle), but Vader has many things to his advantage as well...
He is calmer, knows more about his younger self, can utilize weak points.
He has mastered his style (and other ones as well) to a higher degree.
More experience in duelling.
Now I'm not saying Vader wins, but I just wanted to state some of his advantages.
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Anakin Skywalker versus Vader? Hmm, pretty hard battle. I hear Anakin was pretty good, even wtfpwned Cin Drallig and Count Dooku. Though Vader is strong enough to pick up a dude with one arm, so perhaps he could just beat the blade out of Anakin Skywalkers hand!
Vader also perfected the same lightsaber form Anakin Skywalker did and mastered it fully, he also defeated Darth Obi Wan who defeated Anakin and we know age does not matter in star wars.
Come to think about it, Vader and Anakin are very alike. Hmm.. Pretty weird..
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Anakin would > vader in saber combat but a stronger connection to the force? sorry vaders force mastery > anakins and so does vaders force skill, however this is a light saber duel ONLY so anakin > vader in pure saber combat. And sense saber strikes better than anybody else?
Sry that comes under precognition which is under force category which vader has the upperhand.
If this is crystal clear minded anakin, vaders fuked and dont forget vader can use psychology to get anakin out of that state and may be able to defeat him, notice the word "may". i did not say vader will win, only a possibility
anakins advantage is his speed and agility, vaders advantage is in his strength and knowledge of his former self.
Like kamikz said, he knows his former self's weaknesses.
Last edited by BoratBorat on Feb 21st, 2007 at 02:39 PM
Anakin has a better connection to the Force, i didn't say he has better Force powers, Vader lost a huge connection to the Force on Mustafar and yes he can sense(predicts danger because of the Force) better then anyone else, because he has mastered thelightsaber combat and can channel his incredible connection to the Force in his fights with lightsaber, but he cant channel it to his Force powers, because, he hasn't mastered them.
So we agree, that Anakin is better in swordplay and Vader has better Force powers.
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You mean potential? Yes vader did lose alot of potential on mustafar but it did not effect his ability to control the darkside and even being crippled, vader is a formidable opponent with the lightsaber.
Do not forget vader had also added other lightsaber forms to his already-mastered djem so to compensate him for his lack of speed.
Lastly vader has knowledge on his former self as kamikz mentioned
Vader completely shut out everything about his former self from his mind shortly after Purge; his identity, his memories, and everything about his former self (which would include the way he fights), and considering that 22 years have gone by since Vader's mutilation at Mustafar for ESB Vader, I really don't see how he's supposed to know how his former self fights to such an intense degree as you guys seem to think.
He was trying, yeah, but he could never forget who he actually was.
Seeing how Vader actually expanded on his fighting style, I couldn't possibly see how he could've started from scratch....
And you would never forget the dumbest move in your life, the one who cost Vader everything. He would know how he acted, he would take advantage of these things for sure...
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Anakin is faster, has betetr reflexes, Vader had more strength but Anakin's strong, too, Anakin has more flexibility and he bested Dooku, who's a great swordsman and even rivaled Yoda. Vader was only on par with ANH Kenobi, and Anakin is stronger than the more powerful ROTS Kenobi. Plus he's a level 9 swordsman, same as ROTS Sidious, ESB Vader's only 80% of Sidious and saber combat isn't even ESB Vader's strong point so he'd be even less that 80% of Sidious in saber combat. I don't think Sidious really increased his saber skills between trilogies, just his Force skills, so. Yes, Anakin wins, I'd personally put ESB Vader as a low to middle level 8 swordsman.
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Vader is physically far more powerful than Anakin (in terms of strength), and Form V relies heavily, and almost entirely on that.
Vader also knows all about Anakin, giving him both an edge in actual combat because he knows his attacks, and a huge ability to play on his emotions.
Vader is much more level headed than his younger self. "It was the maturity of the mind he had sensed that had temporarily confused him."
In reference to Obi Wan sensing Vader. And while I realize that level headedness can't win a fight for you ("Clever and subtle. He could whip any ten clever and subtle Jedi with his lightsaber tied behind his back." - Anakins thoughts), it can certainly be a deciding factor when it is paired with a skilled duelist (Obi Wan's case). (And that quote speaks a lot for Anakins brashness).
From RODV:
"And so Forte and Kulka went in as a team, each of them employing a radically different lightsaber style, determined to off-balance Vader.
But Vader merely stood like a statue, his blade angled toward the ground until the very instant the two Jedi unleashed their assault.
Then, as the three blades joined in scatterings of dazzling light and grating static sounds, he moved.
Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.
Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and Kulka's strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed.
Toying with the Jedi, he grazed Forte on the left shoulder, then on the right thigh; Kulka, he pierced lightly in the abdomen, then shaved away the flesh on the right side of the Ho'Din's face.
Seeing the two Jedi Knights drop to their knees, wincing in pain, Padawan Klossi Anno broke from where she was helping Jambe and Nam engage the stormtroopers and got to Vader one step ahead of Starstone.
Sidestepping, Vader slashed her across the back, sending her sprawling across the balcony; then he whirled on Forte and Kulka just as they were clambering to their feet and decapitated them. From behind Vader came Jambe and Nam, neither of whom was an experienced fighter and both of whom Vader immediately eliminated from the fight, amputating Jambe's right arm, and Nam's right leg.
To her horror, Starstone realized she was suddenly alone with Vader, who immediately signaled his stormtroopers to leave her to him, and to devote themselves to slaughtering the few Wookiees who remained on the tier.
«Now you, Padawan,» he said, as he began to circle her.
Calling on the Force, Starstone fell on him in a fury, striking wildly and repeatedly, and with aver. Moments into her attack she understood that Vader was merely allowing her to vent, as the Temple's swordmaster had often done with students, allowing them to believe that they were driving him back, when in fact he was simply encouraging them to wear themselves out before disarming them in one rapid motion.
So she retreated, altering her strategy and calming herself. Vader is so tall, so imposing... But perhaps I can get under or inside his guard as Master Chatak did
«Your thoughts give you away, Padawan,» he said in a flash. «You mustn't take the time to think. You must act on impulse. Instead of repressing your anger, call on it! Make use of it to defeat me.»
Starstone feigned an attack, then sidestepped and slashed at him.
Shifting to a one-handed hold on his lightsaber, he parried her blade and lunged forward. She snapped aside in the nick of time, but he kept coming at her, answering her increasingly frantic strikes with harsher ones and driving her inexorably toward the rim of the balcony.
He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back...
She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems. Ducking out from under a broad sweep of the crimson blade, she somersaulted to safety.
But only for a moment."
"Counterattacking, Vader strode through fountaining flames to take the fight to the Wookiees. Crimson blade slashing left and right, he parried blaster bolts and amputated limbs and heads. Caterwauling and howling, showing their fangs and waving their long arms about, the Wookiees tried to hold their positions, but they had never faced anything like him, even in the darkest depths of Kashyyyk's primeval forest.
As tall as some of them, Vader waded in, his lightsaber cleaving intricately carved war shields, sending blasters and bow-casters flying, setting fire to shaggy coats, leaving more than a score of bodies in his wake. "
"Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning-fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip. Spinning, Shryne regained his balance and raced forward, feinting a diagonal slash from the left, then twisting the blade around to the right and surging forward. The blade might have gotten past Vader's guard, but instead it glanced off the back of his upraised left hand, smoke curling from the black glove. Shryne countered quickly with an upsweep to Vader's neck, but Vader spun to the right, his blade held straight out in front of him as he completed a circle, nearly cutting Shryne in half.
Folding himself at the waist, Shryne skittered backward, parrying a rapid series of curt but powerful slashes. Backflipping out of range, he twisted his body to the right, set the blade over his right shoulder, and rushed forward, hammering away. Vader deflected the blows without altering his stance or giving ground, but in the process left his lower trunk and legs unprotected.
In a blink Shryne dropped into a crouch and pivoted through a turn.
For an instant it seemed that the blade was going to pass clear through Vader's knees, but Vader leapt high, half twisting in midair and coming down behind Shryne."
"Vader closed the distance between them in a heartbeat, slashing left and right with potent vertical strokes, narrowly missing Shryne time and again, but destroying everything touched by the blade. No whirling now; no windmilling or deft lunges. He simply used his bulk and size to remain wedded to the floor. It was an old style, the very opposite of what was said to have been Dooku's style, and Shryne had no defense against it."
"Vader had kept his crimson blade straight out in front of him, manipulating it deftly with wrists only, elbows pressed tightly to his sides. Only when Shryne left him no choice did he shuffle his feet or leap."
Seeing as how Vader is very skilled, and has knowledge of Anakin, in a place where he can get an advantage (such as Mustafar), I would definitely give the win to Vader, even in a purely saber match (especially seeing as how Obi Wan could do it).
In a battle on flat ground, with no terrain, purely lightsaber, Anakin takes the win, after a tough match.
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Less powerful? name the source please, clearly the movies and common sense prove vaders force mastery > anakins. And clearly vader was referring to the raw power he once had, what use is super powers when you dont have the mastery of it?
Its like having a nuclear missile and not knowing which button to press,
However i do believe anakin takes down vader in pure saber combat
That's not what I was saying, I was saying that it's very unlikely that Vader would have remembered such intimate knowledge of the way he fought, given that 22 years had gone by, and he had tried as hard as he could to shut his identity out of his mind for all those years.
The style, yes, but knowledge of his former fighting tendencies, and weaknesses and whatnot, very unlikely.
Right, I'm sure he'd be able to push Anakin into making that very same mistake again.
Darth Vader personal thoughts regarding himself after he became a cyborg: "…you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory…"
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A few things legend that i would like to point out, that was directly after he just got into his suit. Of course he healed and regained his strength in the force as time went by, Again i didnt see anakin doing anything that impressive with the force other than High level TK which vader had surpassed him in the force in terms of mastery.
Secondly that contradicts george lucas statements. There was a part in the ROTS novel that said something like you are now half of what you once were. Going by what gl said of vader being 80% of sidious, that quote in the novel i read 2 years ago makes it sound like anakin is 160% of sidious that is 60% stronger than he is which also contradicts what gl said that only mace or yoda can take on sidious.
Lastly the RODV novel stated that vaders limitations were mental and not physical that if he were to shake lose his doubts, the incredible power will reawaken in him
EDIT.
And that quote was referring to vaders raw power, anakin had a hell lot of it before he got wounded, but he was unable to do several techniques due to lack of mastery
This is not the case since this is a force fight, so id say anakin takes him in saber combnat
Feb 21st, 2007 01:27 PM
