Gender: Male Location: Hiding from The Doctor, shhhh.....
Woah woah woah. You have some serious misconceptions here. First off, DS rarely carries boomtubes on him. He can make his own. As for MBs, DS can make them, but he can do anything a mother box can do already, so it's basically just an amp.
As for the fight, Darkseid. Unlike the Infinity Watch, Darkseid will not job. This is a gross mismatch.
And partial knowledge of the ALE? Thor has no defense against that.
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Enyalus: I know this is pre-FC Darkseid. But what ALE is this? A portion of the true ALE revealed in Final Crisis? A portion of the ALE as depicted in Death of the New Gods? A portion of the more generic versions of the ALE we've seen prior to all that?
Well... to be honest, Thor's shown amazing natural resistance to some of the highest attacks on the soul and mind respectively. And here, he has the Power Gem which he's used in Blood and Thunder to counter even more focused and concerted attacks on both soul and mind.
Looking at it from the other side, other than the Life Equation which Thor could not possibly benefit from, there are other things that have resisted the ALE, e.g. Speedforce, Diana's Lasso of Truth, agents of God and crazy people wired differently. They resist the Anti-Life Equation.
And you have to consider that Infinity Crusade specifically focused on how Blood and Thunder Thor's actual psychosis combined with his powerful immortal spirit prevented the Goddess and Moondragon from enslaving his will. Goddess was empowered with her CCU's and Moondragon possessed the Mind Gem. I'd say this is far from a mismatch.
Gender: Male Location: Hiding from The Doctor, shhhh.....
"crazy people wired differently. "
You have the gall to try to use that? That is a worthless assertation considering the 'crazy' people were Nix Uotan, Metron, and possibly Highfather. So that's a completely false example.
2nd, the ALE is completely unlike the soul and mind gems.
3rd, neither of them was trying to kill him or thought of trying to get the gem away. Or possibly they lacked the abilities. Darkseid does not.
__________________ Wanted: New sig. Something crazy, zany, and slightly evil. Will give sig credit to whoever's I sport.
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It was my impression that Darkseid has always had a partial knowledge of the ALE, since the 70's. He just never had the knowledge of the full ALE in very many arcs. That's what I meant by saying he had the partial ALE here. Thor w/ PG was a monster. I didn't want to seem unfair by barring the ALE entirely.
TP: I was under the impression DS carried a boom tube with him in his belt-thingy as part of his standard equipment, but just incase it wasn't I specified. As for the MB, I know he doesn't normally carry them, but since Thor got an outside amp, I figured I'd give DS one, too. I didn't know he can make them. Can he do it on the fly/in a battle or does it take prep?
How is it a false example when Highfather (a likely guess) revealed this information specifically? Is he not a reliable source of information in your eyes? Even if you did presume that he was lying to Nix or was grossly misinformed, Mokkari and his Justifiers clearly did have a holding cell for such people. And as is evident from this scan, there were a whole lot of bloodstains from Mokkari's past victims: http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/...i112/FC5p24.jpg
Neither did Mokkari nor his Justifiers treat the three as if they were the only cases of ALE resistance. There simply is no evidence to justify narrowly reading that scan to presume that only those three resisted the ALE. As it stands, crazy people and those wired differently resist the ALE's effects. Blood and Thunder Thor conveniently fits that description since he both suffers from extreme psychosis and possesses a fortified immortal spirit. Even moreso, both of those aspects were the exact reasons why attacks to subvert and subdue his soul and mind failed.
The Soul Gem gives absolute mastery over the soul. The Mind Gem gives absolute mastery over the Mind. It's about as best an analogue to what partial possession of the ALE provides, which is the stripping of free will away. Both Gems used individually and in concert (i) failed to heal his psychosis and (ii) failed to subdue Blood and Thunder Thor.
They couldn't kill him because they were being stomped on and had their own abilities turned back on them by the Power Gem and they couldn't just simply snatch the gem off. You're right in that they lacked the abilities because of how powerful and resistant Blood and Thunder Thor was. Your presumptuous conclusion that Darkseid possesses facilities for which to do so is completely unsupported.
While what OneGo says is true, I don't feel that the feat is sufficient. The Mind and Soul gem used on a "higher" level or by a being with deeper insight into them, would have been able to cure him. Nobody has deeper insight into the soul gem than Adam Warlock, which is why I feel that it was poorly written. Odin, on his on (With thor in someone's opinion) did through telepathy, what the mind and soul gem couldn't.
I feel that this is because of Moondragon's limited mastery over the mind gem, and not because of Thor's incredible resistance. Darkseid has telepathy that's most likely on par with Odin. Why would he seek out the ALE if it was not superior?
Kris Blaze: Odin failed to cure Thor through overt telepathy. He had to merge with Thor's mind and convince him to free himself. So unless Darkseid can render Thor inert with a similar device to a force-block and then has the preconception to appeal to Thor's soul in a fatherly way and coax him out, I'm not sure how this applies.
celestialdemon: The thread involves Thor with the Power Gem during Blood and Thunder. This presumes that he already broke out of Goddess' and Moondragon's control and now possesses the Power Gem, which increased his resistance to both soul and mind tampering.
No doubt Darkseid's mind is a scary place, but even in a controlled situation with all of Thanos' instrumentalities and the combined powers of Dr. Strange's magic, Warlock's Soul Gem and Moondragon's Mind Gem... they couldn't handle Thor's psyche. His psychosis, immortal spirit and the Power Gem caused too much feedback. I think those things make it exceptionally arguable that Thor's mind wouldn't be simply broken in half. In fact, using telepathy might be dangerous for Darkseid as it was for Thanos and Dr. Strange (both with exceptional telepathic abilities) and the entire Infinity Watch.
Darkseid, does have the facilities to trap Thor and telepathically interact with him. However, I don't think he'd care or be able to cure Thor or be fatherly with him. He wouldn't need to.
Furthermore it's fair to say the ALE works on an entirely different principal than the infnity gems (which seem to be dependent on the will power and competence on the wielder and quite frankly have inconsistent showings throughout their history).
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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.
^ That's your opinion and one which requires evidence to convince me. So far, I've been presented with none so I cannot properly rebut it.
It is very fair to say that they operate on different bases, moreover, I would agree that the Infinity Gem's do rely on each wielder's prowess. But my opinion is not solely based on reliance that the Infinity Gems represent the penultimate power over Soul and Mind. As I pointed out before, the most potent and final version of the ALE exhibited a vulnerability to being dispelled by the Speed Force, Wonder Woman's lasso, agents of God and exhibited an inability to to affect crazy people and those who are wired differently. And Thor is both extremely insane and is in possession of a fortified immortal spirit. Both of which specifically provided exceptional defense against potent attacks on his soul and mind.
The lasso of truth? I don't see how you conclude that it stops the ALE. It immobilized the body briefly (3 billion + DS), not the concept. The speedforce doesn't either, I think this is a case of interpreatation. God's agent, Spectre was affected by the ALE through a special medium.
And this: "being crazy makes you immune to the ALE" talk, I feel is being taken out of context. It's already been stated that only a select few people in creation can resist the ALE, (known: Nix Uotan, Miracle, Metron through the LE) so I hardly think it comes down to simply being crazy.
As far as trapping Thor goes he controls the fundamental forces of restriction, (the life trap). So he can definitely do that, in his pre FC form.
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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.
Last edited by Allankles on May 14th, 2009 at 12:03 AM
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May 13th, 2009 08:02 PM
That is a worthless assertation considering the 'crazy' people were Nix Uotan, Metron, and possibly Highfather. So that's a completely false example. 
