Feats from all movies are included. Bruce finds out that Pai Mei killed his master and finds him to take his vengeance.
All out battle, who wins?
Some info on Pai Mei, All the stories agree: Pai Mei’s kung fu is incredible. He can make himself as light as a feather, a single strike can kill, and the standard weak points on a human—throat, eyes, balls—are not only iron on Pai Mei: they are weapons. He uses his powerful inner thighs to break arms, his throat to break swords, and his eyes to break hands. His qi is strong enough to deflect almost any attack. He is the master of the Five-Point-Palm Exploding Heart Technique. He has only one weak point in which he can freely move to different parts of his body at will.
Info on Bruce Lee movie characters: All of his movie characters had incredible, speed, skill, durability, power, and strength. Characters in two of his movies stand out for their unique abilities. Game of Death Bruce Lee character had the distinct ability to quickly spot the weakness in a fighter’s art and style and exploit and turn it against them to his advantage. In Chinese Connection or (Fist of Fury) Bruce Lee character’s chi reach peak ability making Bruce far from anything normal and unstoppable in battle.
It's Pai Mei for me. I just believe he's on a different level than Bruce skill wise. I understand your point about Bruce in CC, and I think there is some validity to your claims on the implications. That said, Pai Mei has VASTLY more years of experience studying MA as well as fighting. If you look at their fights, Pai Mei appears to barely try and still beat some of the best easily. Where as Bruce, in his movies, often times when he faces the best... he takes blows and sometimes repeated blows. I just can't see that with Pai Mei. Though I will say, I have more respect for Bruce in a MvF setting now since Kotor framed his argument in the other thread. He gets more respect and accolades than I originally thought.
Here is my case for Bruce.
Both can kill with one strike. Here is the only real advantage for Pai Mei, is that he has one weak spot which he can move at will on his Body. However, Pai Mei has been defeated by the combo of two or more techniques or arts as shown in 'Executioners from Shaolin'.
Here is Bruce advantage.
One - His art includes multiple styles that are made into his own. Pai Mei will not be able to spot an particular art and react due to his knowledge. Bruce art will pretty much be foreign to him.
Two - Bruce has shown superior speed (this cannot be denied) and strength.
Three - Bruce knowledge of different arts will allow him to use his distinct technique of noticing a weakness in whatever art Pai Mei uses and exploit that weakness to his advantage.
Four - Reaching peak chi as displayed in CC and reference in later movies (last dragon as the glow). *Other versions of Bruce Movie CC they are called lose versions of that story since the main character is no where near the peak abilities displayed by Bruce and minor story differences.
We can argue their opponents abilities and skills as well.
I couldn't disagree with some of what you said here. I would not say in the least Bruce has better speed feats. In fact, Pai Mei has the superior feats when you look at it as a whole.
Example, Pai Mei move where he stands on the sword as she tries to impale him. This would take incredible speed and agility to accomplish. In fact, superhuman speed and agility. When you figure, that the Bride is very skilled herself and fast. She also has good feats of speed. Yet, she couldn't land a single blow on him.
You must remember, being hit is indicative of not being fast enough to move out of the way or block. Pai Mei, was never hit by her... whether she was armed or unarmed. Bruce, in all his major fights... took blows... repeated blows. That is indicative of inferior speed... not greater speed. Even Pai Mei plucking out the eye... to a trained very fast deadly assassin... you'd have to be incredible fast to have them to be able to do a thing about it. He still did. Speed goes to Pai Mei.
Again strength... I'm not sure why you're saying this... Pai was CASUALLY tossing around the Bride as if she was a sack of potatoes. To say nothing of, his clearly superior understanding of pressure points means, he doesn't need to be stronger... he can simply apply a pressure hold and they are done.
Also, you reference a fight which Pai Mei was clearly winning and his superior. He was toying with the boy and doing a monologue throughout. I would hardly call that a sign of him being inferior. More like, he was handicapped by plot and CIS. The good guy, will usually always win. He did. Doesn't mean he was better.
You also can't get around the fact that Pai Mei has VASTLY more experience fighting and acquiring knowledge compared to Bruce. Nobody even knows how old he is. He could be 1000 years old some source say. He experience and knowledge gained makes Bruce look like a child.
As you also indicate... he can move around the weak spot to his choosing. Bruce will have no idea what that spot will even be nor that he even has a weak spot. He'll just assume he can try and punch him and KO him... He'll be sadly mistaken.
It comes down to this... Pai Mei has looked superior to Bruce when dealing with foes. He barely tries, and they do nothing. Bruce has to work for his most times.
Bruce was not touch by the sword. There are two sword fight scenes in the movie. Then we have the arms. The others I mentioned in the previous thread.
I’m not sure why you keep saying Pai Mei does not get hit. Playing or not he has been hit plenty in his movies and not by the very best. Kareem Abdul Jabbar, the Russian, and Chuck are the only people who have straight up hit Bruce multiple times. Those fighters were not normal and the top of the top. Anyone else used tricks and the hits were very limited.
Many fighters in movies have dodge swords and weapons but none move their hands and arms like Bruce did. As stated previously this was a sign that he reached a point in his ability or Chi that showed he peaked as a fighter.
Then we can say comparable. Bruce in CC grab two people with each hand, picked them up, swung them around, and threw each one across the dojo. He also was able to temporarily contend with the strength of the Russian who was bending metal around his arm and punching nails in wood with his hand.
Never said he was better. The point is he lost and it wasn’t due to the fact that he knew his weak spot because Pai Mei made it clear that he can move his weak spot. At the end of the movie it is stated that the combo of mixing two different arts is what defeated him.
Something Bruce characters specialize in.
I do not deny this fact and am not disputing this fact. The point I am making is that Bruce doesn’t really have a style that you can be aware of without first watching him or fighting him because how unique it is. He takes from everywhere and makes it his own. This is clearly seen in his fight with Chuck who was the superior fighter until Bruce changed his style. Game of Death, where Bruce adapted and changed his style, according to the weakness of the opponent.
The point is Bruce style is made to be flexible, adapt and exploit weakness. Granted this would be difficult to do against Pai Me but Pai Mei is not known for mixing the arts but changing art when fighting and being the best in the those particular arts due to his superior skill and knowledge.
As stated before he can be defeated without knowing the weak spot and Bruce is more than powerful enough to cause damage to him. Bruce techniques for exploiting weakness would allow him to find that weak spot.
I am not going to argue who did better against their opponents; it is a matter of opinion.
Frankly, the battle would be great between the two but it is the fact that Pai Mei would be facing an opponent who Chi is at peak ability and whose style is made to be flexible and adaptive that would put him in danger in losing this fight. I don’t see them in different leagues. I believe Bruce could definitely win.
Notice how in this first clip, the guy challenging Pai Mei, has to go throw expert sword fighters at the same time. They are clearly very skilled, and imo, display better skill than the sword fighter Bruce beat. He's able to deal with them pretty casually. Yet when facing Pai Mei, he lands almost nothing of consequence. In fact Pai Mei, turns is back to him multiple times and still casually blocks his shots. You'll also notice how far Pai Mei sends him flying with his blows. Hey even dislodges a giant rock statue with a punch. Clearly indicative of strength and striking power.
Look at this expanded version of Kill Bill. Notice the move where Pai Mei throws a guy with only his fingertips like 10 feet in the air and way. Stamp 3:07
I view those scenes where he kind of get hits because he let's them hit him. For example his groin move is legendary. He allows people to hit him there. Same with his neck. His done this is repeated movies. He also lets them hit him in the chest to prove they can do nothing to him. He tells them so. In stark contrast, Bruce gets hit and it can leave a giant foot print on his chest... or draw blood. It looks cool when Bruce wipes the blood from his fast and licks it and does his pose... but he was still hit and hurt by the blow. When people land on Pai Mei it's mostly because he allows it and it does nothing to him. Nothing.
Strength I just can't see as equal though. Bruce is strong, but Pai Mei to me is clearly stronger. Bruce has no moves that can compare to Pai Mei casually tossint people with fingers. At the very least, we can say Pai Mei's striking power is vastly superior. He was sending people flying 20 feet with casually blows. Not to mention killing a whole bunch of trained Shaolin monks and killing them with blows. Most of them.
I understand what you're saying about Bruce's style being adaptive. This is true, and plus for him in movie debates and real life fights. However, I think you underestimate Pai Mei knowledge. For example, in Kill Bill, he explicitly states to known multiple style... he said your tiger claw can't compare with my eagle claw. Clearly indicating he knows both very well and an expert. He even makes fun of her tiger claw. So we can clearly see, he knows multiple styles and has mastered them.
I also enjoyed the clips you posted Kotor, I hadn't seen those in a little bit. As I said, Bruce is impressive, and better than I remember. To me though, Pai Mei stinks of Superhuman, and as good as Bruce is, in most of his movies I never really got the same feel. To me that is the difference.
Great post, I enjoyed the clips from the classic movies. So what we have here is perception. I went through this with a thread I made previously with Bruce and Jet Li characters as well as the actor who plays Transporter.
As stated previously, Bruce style of Film mimics what a real fight would look like instead of fancy wires, Chinese opera dance movements, and speeding up the film. Look at this clip. This is one of the most well done fight scenes of a person with no weapons going against a samurai – Done in many movies by many fighters such as the clips you provided https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdL0z4I2cdc (Its closer to the last fight scene.).
In the clips you provided I don’t think those guys were more skilled with the sword. They seemed to be dancing more than fighting, once again perception. Due to the difference in the styles of filming and years in which films were made I have to go with the way the characters were meant to be portrayed.
I agree Pai Mei is the ultimate Kung Fu master. Due to Bruce Lee character portrayal in the movie Chinese Connection, I say he can fight and possibly win again Pai Mei. Why, because Bruce character Chen Zhen is portrayed as being the master not a top master. His arm movements were shown to portray his Chi as reaching a point that no other master who was alive at that time had reach. (This could include Pai Mei but probably not). I draw this conclusion from references from other movies and commentaries.
In the end all fights are grounded. CC puts Bruce at a level from my perspective that enables him to fight Pai Mei straight up. Without more repeating it is Bruce unique adaptive style that makes this a battle. No matter what style Pai Mei uses, if he does not take out Bruce quickly Bruce will adapt and exploit its weakness. Pai Mei will have a harder time trying to figure out Bruce style and weakness then Bruce because Pai Mei relies on his knowledge of different arts and it counters then a style that adapts to whatever style of fighting is presented.
Pai Mei's punches go through 2" wood planks like styrofoam and on top of that has a legit Hokuto shinken death touch. He can also seemingly control his mass(?) and extend his natural lifespan. He's superhuman
I think you need to review the clips again bud. You said those swordfighters don't look more skilled? They look vastly superior in my eyes. They aren't just dancing around... look at all the sword thrusts and strikes they throw from all directions. I agree that Bruce fight was probably more realistic, but that is about as much as I would say. The others clearly displayed more skill, and frankly, by a good margin.
Fair enough. As I stated it is all perception. That is why I provided the other clip of a person fighting a swordsman with no weapons.
I've seen those movies and others like that plenty of times. That is why Bruce Lee films and style of fighting were so highly praised. Those other films were more like dance moves not real fighting.
But I will say this. Bruce styles of film were never like those and probably would not have been had he not die so young.
Last thing I will say is that what separates Bruce from characters portrayed by Chuck, Wesley, Jackie, Jason S (transporter), Van D, Jet Li, etc. is that no regular only the top masters could take a hit from him (this is besides his speed and strength). This is clearly seen in his films were many thugs and regular fighters were taken out with one hit.
I understand we are not going to agree but I believe there is ample proof from Bruce films that the characters he portrayed were far from anything normal from a human and martial artist prospective.
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Oct 18th, 2016 03:19 PM
