Alright, I was going through the various eras in my head and categorizing them because, well, that's what I do
A couple prefaces: This is mostly by quantity of high-tier force users. That is to say, even a single really uber force user or two won't give an era a top rating. They count a bit more than less uber ones, but numbers weigh more.
This is about achieved power, not potential.
You may disagree on some of these ratings, and you're free to, feel free to post your own opinions.
Chronologically,
Hundred Years Darkness- HIGH
We primarily know the survival exiles, and of the 12, we know 5 were particularly uber. And those were impressive indeed, Muur was a serious badass when we saw him in action, Dreypa his rival was able to bully pretty much the entire Lost Tribe of the Sith later on, and Ajunta Pall was supposed to be stronger. Five of those! And they lost! Way up there.
Darth Andeddu Era of Sith Empire- LOW
There was a point when Darth Andeddu was the most powerful living sith and a great sorcerer, to the level that the other members of the Sith Empire had to gang up to try and take him down, but when revived in a later era he was still overcome by the number two member of the One Sith in his own speciality.
Great Hyperspace War- LOW
In contrast to the HYD, you had Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh... and that's about it. And Naga relied on artificial aids for his big feats. Of the Jedi, several were reasonably skilled, but none really shown to be high tier. It was a bit higher before Marka Ragnos, who was pretty uber, died, but well, he was dead by the war.
Exar Kun War- MEDIUM
In the first of the Old Sith Wars, you've got Exar, Ulic, Nomi, Thon, Arca Jeth, and Vodo-Siosk Baas. Some stronger than others, but a pretty nice lineup.
KotoR (Comics)- LOW
A few decades after Exar Kun, still several years before Revan goes Sith, the casualties of the Exar Kun war have apparently . We know a good number of, but the strongest individual seems to be the Revanchrist, who's not near what he'll become.
KotoR (Revan's war)- LOW
Better than the above, but you have Revan, you have Malak... and that's about it! The Jedi at this time relied on teams to take on tougher Sith, Atris is the only one that comes to mine.
KotoR (Triumvirate)- MEDIUM
Beats the prior conflict but not by much. Three new Sith add to the pack, Meetra Surik being able to beat any of the new sith. Aside from Meetra, Atris is still around. Considering the next era has a number of people higher than the person who beat everyone else in the era, on the low side of Medium.
TOR- HIGH
One of the highest eras. Vitiate, several high-end Sith like Malgus, Scourge, the Emperor's Wrath, and the more impressive members of the Dark Council, Satele Shan, the Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, and several more Jedi who are pretty strong themselves.
New Sith Wars- VARIES
Well, long era, we see a fair number of medium-tier sith during the Knight Errant era, and know of some individual badasses scattered around the era like Darth Ruin, the Dark Underlord, and Belia Darzu, but unfortunately lack enough information on any specific time to give much in the way of ratings.
New Sith Wars (Brotherhood of Darkness)- MEDIUM
You've got Bane, Kaan, Kas'im, and two other members of the sith who are supposed to be rivals of the prior. In the Jedi, you have Hoth and Raskta Lsu.
Post-New Sith Wars- LOW
You've got Bane, Zannah, and Raskta Lsu until she dies. That's it. It takes quite awhile for the force using community to recover from the battle of Ruusian.
Clone War- HIGH
Yoda, Mace, Sidious, Dooku, Plagueis when he's around, Anakin, Obi-wan, and a whole rack of solid masters and other sith apprentices / prospective apprentices like Maul, Depa Billaba, Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, etc.. Probably the lowest of the Highs, but it's called the golden age of the Jedi for a reason.
Rebellion- LOW
Sidious, Vader. Two's not exactly a lot, badass they may be. There's some inquisitors around but only Jerec's really worth mentioning. The addition of Galen Marek bumps this up to MEDIUM, but only for a short time, he doesn't last long.
Post-Endor- LOW
But wait, it had Luke! You might say. Sure, but it only had Luke, and he wasn't fully trained, and the other Jedi he picked up were even less so for several years, even if some of them were pretty badass. Immediately after Palpatine's fall was one of the lowest points, and even when you get into the Clone Empire that raised the number of high end force users to two.
New Jedi Order- HIGH
Grand Master Luke, Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade, Corran Horn, the Solo twins Jaina and Jacen, Saba Sebatyne, and more solid ones behind them. Even Lumiya's gotten rather powerful at this point. One of the highest eras, there's a reason they beat major threats like the Vong and Lost Tribe with most of their strong members intact.
Legacy- MEDIUM
Darth Krayt, Wyyrlok, Cade Skywalker, Celeste Morne-with-Muur, and a good number of very solid masters in the rest of Krayt's inner circle, some of the Jedi like Shado Vao, Nat Skywalker, and Planted T'ra Saa, and some of the Imperial Knights, such as Draco who took down six sith warriors at the same time. One of the higher Mediums even, though a bit less-so when the casualties really hit at the end.
Vitiate existed during this time. In addition, the Jedi of this era were a force to be reckoned with.
Greatest issue is that much of the ancient times are noticeably unexplored so it is difficult to ascertain competency of Force-wielders during these times.
Ressurected ancient Sith Empire (led by Vitiate) existed in all of these times. Therefore, all should rank HIGH.
Also, we shouldn't underrate Bastilla, Bandon and Vandar.
Should rank LOW
Kaan's brotherhood promoted equality rather then cut-throat competition. Bane was instrumental in its downfall; not the Jedi.
Should rank MEDIUM
The Jedi are not fighting a Sith Empire but rather a rebellion force comprised of mainly droids.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Feb 25th, 2013 at 07:00 AM
Beyond sometime during the Sith Empire, nope, just the circumstances from his history.
Yea, I did forget about him. Worth mentioning, but wasn't uber yet, just moderately strong. We can count him, as he was doing stuff in the Empire, but I wouldn't say it's sufficient change the rank at this point.
Of the several Jedi introduced in the conflict, none stood out as particularly high level in their performance. Even the ones defending Coruscant and Kirrek. Ooroo was the most notable, and Odan-Urr, the one who had the most long-term fame for stuff centuries later, wasn't yet strong enough to use Battle Meditation to any real effect against the Sith forces.
Mm, since they aren't active in galactic affairs, I think they should be counted separately. Ditto, say, the One Sith when they're in hiding, the Lost Tribe (though of course not getting near as high), and The Ones.
Also we have no idea how long it took for it to become big and powerful. It started, after all, as a small thing and only struck out during TOR. We only know one or two of it's sith lords while it was in hiding. So ignorance makes it hard to count it too.
I.e. one can consider the TOR Empire as a bar that gradually raises from Low to High in the background while the ones in the front fluctuate around.
Still, Bane himself admitted Kaan was not weak. Bane, Ka'sim, and the lords acknowledged as serious rivals in power, Qordis and Kopecz, were strong. Most got strong before the Brotherhood itself was formed, so weren't hampered too much by it's non-cut throat nature, though newer recruits certainly wouldn't get to that level, with the exception of Bane for obvious reasons.
And then there's the Jedi of the time.
While individually, no uber members aside from Bane, there was a good number of strong force users.
But there were still several powerful active Sith in addition to a great lineup of powerful Jedi. The Jedi are the primary reason it rates high, there were a lot of them. And it had not just one, but multiple very uber people.
Moderately strong is an understatement; he began killing adults at the age of 6; he killed Lord Dramath at the age of 10; he killed many potential rivals afterwards; Marka Ragnos found him very impressive when he met him (Vitiate; only 13 years old during this meeting) for the first time and accepted his rule over his homeworld; Vitiate, however, secluded himself from greater political ambitions and concentrated on his personal ambitions.
Bigger issue is that the "ground realities" of both the Jedi Order and Sith Empire during this era are not very clear to us with current level of content. Details of rise of Vitiate to power during this era is a welcome addition nonetheless.
But the Jedi won the "Great Hyperspace War" nonetheless; it is a big accomplishment. You disagree?
Sith Emperor was active during these times barring that of Exar Kun. He was responsible for the Mandalorian Wars and also the Jedi Civil War.
During the time of Revan, it was powerful enough for him to not ignore it as a threat. Unlike the lost tribe of Sith, this resurrected Sith Empire was a big threat. Revan was responsible for the delay in the invasion of the Republic; otherwise, the timing would have been perfect right after the fall of the Sith Triumvirate.
See above.
To be honest, the brotherhood holds no candle to the legends of the past such as the Sith which existed during the TOR timeline. The Sith rulers during these times came close to destroying both the Republic and the Jedi Order (and in all out confrontations nonetheless). On the contrary, the Jedi Order and the Republic were not short on capable agents either who managed to turn the tide of the conflicts regardless of "nearly unstoppable" odds.
Thanks to the intellect of Bane, he figured out the method to not just defeat the Jedi on Ruusan but also terminate the brotherhood. Revan's holocron paved way for the rise of Sith to great power once more.
In addition, notable Jedi were also few during Bane's era.
I believe that the aftermath of the events of TOR timeline led to the decay of Sith in the future until Bane came in to the picture.
Issue is that the Jedi Order was primarily contending with droids during this era. The Order wasn't adequately prepared for the threat of Sith. Several centuries of peace have led it to this failure. In the past, the Jedi Order have always found a way to survive against heavy odds; in contrast, the Jedi Order of this era couldn't.
Competent individuals have existed in all eras; key difference is that Anakin's era is the most well-explored era of the mythos and this is why we find the players in this era so impressive. In the big picture, the Jedi Order of this era is a failure and the stage for the Sith to rise in power have already been set a thousand years earlier after the discovery of Revan's holocron.
Those Jedi who got the chance to directly contend with the dark side practitioners; typically ended up dead or defeated or stalemated. Even Yoda have questionable record in his fights. Anakin, Obi-Wan and Mace proved to be the most competent warriors of this era.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Feb 25th, 2013 at 10:15 AM
It is a big accomplishment, but it was won mostly through the Republican's conventional forces, and the Empress Teta and her armies.
Jedi rarely clashed with Sith directly during the war, and those clashes were not the important points. The Jedi played some strategic role holding off sith sorcery, but that was about it. The key turning point was actually a Republic force-sensitive he had duped turning on him
It's not like the Exar Kun war where you had the Jedi scorch a planet with a wall of light- the Jedi in the Hyperspace War fought some Massassi, Sith Soldiers, and probably some minor lords, of which we don't know the details of. If there were any epic duels or great shows of the force, we don't know about it.
He set things in motion, but was personally very distant from them.
I agree- there was a half-dozen or so powerful Sith in the Brotherhood (including Bane), but no truly uber ones like Vitiate.
But there were still more of them than in some other eras.
Well, I'd say it's more complex than that. Post TOR, things went in decline for awhile... but then things got a lot better with Darth Ruin and the Fourth Great Schism that started the New Sith Wars. For awhile, their lords were said to be incredibly powerful. But, in turn, once Belia Darzu fell, no-one was able to unite them for centuries, and they did go downhill as you say until Bane.
The reason why Kaan was able to do as much as he did was because said greater lords had already worn down the Republic so much.
Ok, but that has to do with Palpatine's brilliant plan to have their own army turned on them. I'm just talking about the total number of high-power force users here, which the CW era had in abundance, even if many of them did end up walking into a giant trap.
Agreed. Heck, I would argue quite a few eras rate higher in competence than the CW era, just the CW era has a lot of force power.
I'm just noting that a lot of them were noted to be specifically very force impressive in the absolute sense. Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, you could drop any of these three into the MEDIUM or LOW eras and they'd usually be the strongest, occasionally the second strongest. Only in the HIGH eras would they find multiple peers in terms of power.
I'd rank the Kotor-era as Medium to High personally. But then, I wouldn't separate the Triumvirate-era from it. Its only a few years since Kotor, the same time-frame as the Clone Wars. I'd also take Revan into consideration. That way you still have Revan, Malak and Bastila but also The Exile, Sion, Nihilus and Kreia, Vitiate, Scourge and Nyriss. Thats at least a Medium lineup.
The Jedi of the prequels are, collectively, greater than any previous incarnation of the order: The Big Man called it "the heyday, the golden age of the Jedi." You also have the pinnacle of the Rule of Two in Sidious, the most powerful and intelligent Sith Lord in history.
By that logic the Golden Age of the Sith would be superior by the same virtue inherent of the title. Not only does it have obviously the bestest Sith ever, on an Empire-scale, but also a thriving Jedi Order. Whereas the Prequels only have like, 3 Sith? in total.
First, the Golden Age of the Sith does not have Barris Offee. Your argument is invalid.
But even if I were to entertain your nonsense, The Big Man's comments are specifically in reference to combat whereas the Ragnos era could refer to multiple elements or a combination thereof.
The numbers aren't decisive when the one conquers a galaxy whereas thousands upon thousands upon thousands failed miserably. It's embarrassing how vastly superior Sidious is to his predecessors.
But that's prolly why he's the main villain whereas no one cares about Nihilus, Vitiate, Malgus, etc.
The Golden Age of the Sith doesn't actually seem to have the best sith ever, though, and I don't think were stated as such. It's the only time when the Sith ruled unchallenged for centuries, but weren't the dream-team of top Sith that some other era had.
The Prequels had 4 Sith (Sidious, Tyranus, Maul, Vader at the end), plus two more high-level pseudo-Sith (Opress, Ventress). And I'm pretty sure that if they had walked in during the Golden Age of the Sith while Sadow was in charge, they would've been able to take out the whole Sith Council, some of whom were there for purely political reasons.
Does it matter? The thread is looking for the largest number of high-tier Force users, not combatants. The Golden Age would logically have that number. After all, the Sith are a cult based around using the Force, it stands that the greatest incarnation of them would be the greatest at using the Force.
This thread is specifically about comparing the number of high-tier force users era by era. Numbers is decisive. Savvy?
More people care about the Kotor games than the Prequels.
KotOR is more acclaimed than the prequels. Sales-wise? The prequels enjoy a titanic, monumental advantage.
As for the rest, I don't necessarily disagree. I was just saying that the prequels, the golden age of the Jedi, represented the pinnacle of Jedi strength.
And no, a golden age of Sith does not necessarily represent the Sith at their peak in terms of combat unless otherwise specified.
Feb 25th, 2013 05:00 AM
