Feats for Tulkas.
HoME and Sil feats are allowed.
In HoME, His strength is so great that he ripped a landmass in half.
"Tulkas rent it asunder with his great hands and the seas roared in between, and the land of the Gods was sundered utterly from the lands of the Earth.”
He is physically the strongest Valar, and is stronger physically then anything within Arda.
"Greatest in strength and deeds of powers is Tulkas." From the Sil.
He is stronger then Ulmo (who casually tugged a Great Britain-sized island across a 5,000+ km wide ocean twice effortlessly.)
“He rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless."
He is faster then anything within Arda (Most likely, he is after all practically the God of War.)
He walked over 90% of a continent seven times, covered an entire mountain range much larger then the Himalayas thrice, then still got back to Valmar before anyone else.
When angered: He leapt across a throne room (People shouldn't make him angry lol,) while carrying a chain that he previously could barely walk with.
Tulkas also was never beaten, ever.
Tulkas wrestled with Melkor (The Single Most powerful of the Valar,) and beat him.
"Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him (Melkor,) and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aule had wrought, and led captive; and the world had peace for a long age."
He shook continents in his wrath and his laughter echoed across all of Arda and into the void.
I wrote the speed for Tulkas earlier, that was a copy paste of his feats, I forgot to get rid of speed stuff, sorry about that.
I'm pretty sure Toneri is stronger then Juubito, who was weaker then One Eyed Juubidara.
Melkor created the Helcaraxë because of his power, so basically he created a huge country sized area of ice. http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18564. Check it out.
So much bullshit in these calcs. That said the fact that Melkor nearly destroyed the world when he broke the pillars is proof enough for his strength. Of course, Melkor at this time was far more powerful the when Tulkas defeats him.
Tulkas at that time was stronger in combat, but Melkor was more powerful.
Tulkas was always the strongest amongst them, Melkor and Manwe were the most powerful.
There's a reason why he is physically the strongest Valar.
Melkor broke the pillars with his strength, which means the feat could be replicated by Tulkas, being stronger in strength.
I don't see the bullshit of the calcs. Please explain.
Calc of Twin Lamps.
We certainly start off big, with Melkor's collapse of the Twin Lamps of Illuin and Ormal, which were the first structures devised by the Valar to cast light across the entire planet of Arda/Earth (succeeded by the Twin Trees Telperion and Laurelin, whose fruit was endowed with the same light, that eventually survived only in the triad of the Silmaril gems).
Quote:
But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utummo and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared; and he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and cast down their pillars and broke their lamps. In the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps spilled destroying flame was poured over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.
Chapter 1 ("Of the Beginning of Days"); Page 29 (HarperCollins, 2008 Edition)
Bolded important text for emphasis.
So clearly, the devastation wrought by Melkor's collapse of the Twin Lamps was immense, being planetary in scale. But let's dig deeper to get something more quantifiable.
A description of the creation of the Twin Lamps:
Quote:
...Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the encircling seas. Then Varda filled the lamps and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised near to the north of Middle-earth, and it was named Illuin; and the other was raised in the south, and it was named Ormal; and the lights of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless day.
Chapter 1, Page 27 (same edition).
The pillars upon which the lamps were situated were massive in size, dwarfing any of the future mountains raised by the Valar. This leads us directly to the next quote:
Quote:
...and since Melkor was returned to Middle-earth and they could not yet overcome him, the Valar fortified their dwelling, and upon the shores of the sea they raised the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon Earth. And above all the mountains of the Pelóri was that height upon whose summit Manwë set his throne. Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain[...]From their halls upon Taniquetil Manwë and Varda could look across the Earth even into the furthest East.
Chapter 1, Page 30 (same edition)
The Pelóri mountain range were created by the Valar as a natural barrier to Aman and Valinor, in direct response to Melkor's destruction of the Twin Lamps and the Valars' first occupation on Middle-earth itself. They are established as being the tallest peaks on Tolkienverse Earth, even surpassing the Thangorodrim slags raised by Morgoth in later centuries (by a whole lot, as we'll see in a minute). But the crucial piece of information comes at the end of the quote: the tallest mountain of the Pelóri, Taniquetil, is so high that its summit enables an observer to view to the opposite ends of the planet.
Fortunately, the Atlas of Middle-earth provides us with a lore-accurate map depicting the world of Arda during the early First Age as a demonstration of this significant viewpoint (note that at this stage, Arda/Earth was actually still a flat plane, Eru not shaping the planet into a spherical geiod until millennia lafter, with the sinking of the island Númenor: presumably the artist made a spherical Arda for easier reference to viewers):
So a view approaching 9000 kilometres away can be observed from Taniquetil's summit. Almost ludicrously impressive: but even beyond that is determining the exact altitude necessary for such a distance to the horizon to be visible, for which I once again call upon the services of SD.net's Planetary Parameter Calculator.
The results can be seen here. Taniquetil is a whopping 4649.45 kilometres tall, or roughly 436 times the height of the Thangorodrim. Insane you might say, but these are world-shapers we're talking about here, and it is also necessary for them to observe the world that they help to shape at all times against the treachery of Melkor: such an outpost provides both that observational necessity and personal security. The Thangorodrim were also never specified as being the tallest mountains in Arda's history.
If you recall all the way back to the description of the Twin Lamps, you'll remember that the pillars they were built upon are even taller than any future mountain: this includes Taniquetil. Melkor smashed these pillars into rubble.
Time to obtain a volume: given that they are pillars, I presume a cylinder shape is most plausible to use here.
Volume of a cylinder =
Going ahead to assume that these "pillars" were actually designed in the same fashion as columns by the Valar, thus following the same ratio style between height and diameter: in particular, I'll be going a bit low-end and choosing the Composite Order's ten diameters high structure as the basis for determining the pillar radius.
We already have a minimum height of 4649.45 km for the pillars, thus:
4649.45/10 = 464.95 km
And then halving it for a radius of 232.48 kilometres.
3.14*232,480*232,480*4,649,451 = 789,046,353,414,483,600 m^3 per pillar.
We are uncertain of the exact material used to craft these pillars, but I think continental crust is a safe bet to use here: any complaints about this, just let me know.
Given the description of the level of devastation that destroying these pillars had on the entire planet's surface, I think using the 120 J/cm^3 figure for particularly violent fragmentation is okay.
789,046,353,414,483,600*1,000,000*120 = 9.4685562409738e+25 joules or 22.63 petatons of TNT equivalent.
Continent-busting Melkor, though already I suspected as much through sheer hype: questionable showings of the Vala Verda may result in even higher showings than this, but for now, a solid placement of pure power by the Dark Foe of the World.
Both of them. I didn't run through the math but treating the pillars as if they were conventional pillars that are just very large is incredibly silly. The second is just a single interpretation of the quote. He also uses maps not drawn by Tolkien. I'm sure there are many more holes in it but I'm not to bothers to look.
Tulkas is described as the strongest (not necessarily the greatest at combat) of the Valar and only at a time when Melkor is no longer considered one of the Valar.
Could Tulkas be stronger? Sure. But considering at his prime Melkor was as powerful as all the Valar combined (aside from Tulkas) I have my doubts.
Last edited by ares834 on Jan 5th, 2015 at 09:50 AM
Tulkas was strongest in combat, which is why he is the God of War. They were lamps my good sir, and they were tall.
There aren't a huge amount of maps Tolkien did my good sir, many were unfinished. And they are still based of Tolkien's, no need to be picky.
Melkor just before fighting Tulkas had beaten down all of the other Valar, and after some rest, Tulkas came in and beat him down into a pulp with ease.
There is a reason why he is "Greatest in strength and deeds of powers."
He was the Champion of Valinor, despite being one of the weaker ones in power.
Though he was one of the least invested into Arda.
Even the mighty Melkor was afraid of Tulkas, but Melkor was never afraid of the others, does that not say something?
I think it does.
How is anything I said clams when its in the books?
Tulkas was called the strongest Valar physically. He was the most Warlike of the Ainur. Nothing wrong there, or am I somehow wrong?
Besides Aule, Tulkas didn't invest any of his power in Arda, as supported by the text. Nothing wrong there.
The Lamps were placed upon pillars. Do I need to tell you the definition of a pillar?
Melkor having just defeated the entire Valar combined besides Tulkas, was then defeated by Tulkas one on one, after an unknown amount of time. Nothing wrong there.
Melkor by simply seeing Tulkas ran away like an afraid baby even though he had fought all the Valar combined.
So please tell me where all of these 'unsubstantiated claims are. Please do tell.
First, Tulkas is never said to be the Vala of War in the Sil or (to my knowledge) the HoME. That’s a guess on your part.
Secondly, you state Melkor defeated all the Valar combined. That never happened. For awhile he held the upper hand against them but when Tulkas entered Arda the tide turned and Melkor retreated. At the time Tulkas did not defeat him one on one, rather it was all the Valar that forced him to retreat. When Tulkas did defeat him one on one, Melkor was far lesser and roughly on par with Manwe.
You also claimed that Melkor wasn’t afraid of any of the other Valar besides Tulkas. Untrue. He was afraid of Manwe as well.
Last edited by ares834 on Jan 5th, 2015 at 03:52 PM
Sorry, it seems you forgot my first post where I said Tulkas was practically the God of War, I later forgot to add the practically, sorry for my forgetfulness, but many people refer to him as such.
Melkor did fight all the Valar combined, it seems you need to give the books a nice good reread. But your right though, I did get some events mucked up, sorry, I haven't read the books in years and have mostly been going of memory.
Manwe was the most powerful Valar behind Melkor.
But man there's such a huge gap between them, its scary. My point still stands, Tulkas was physically the strongest Valar, and the most warlike.
I don't remember him being arfaid of Manwe...
He fought them all, but did not defeat them. He was winning though.
After he destroys the pillars, he is afraid of the voice of Manwe and footsteps of Tulkas. Also, according to the Sil, Melkor fears Varda more than any of the other Valar. It seems wrong but that is what it states...
Yes. Never claimed that.....
I don't remember him fearing Varda, it has got to be wrong.
Tulkas and Manwe makes sense.
But I don't remember him fearing any of the others.....
I'll have to give it reread sometime.
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