Rank the ff. From fastest to slowest according to best on screen combat speed (NOT travel speed) showing (low/average "feats" not allowed). No "assumption of speed" allowed. Speed must be visually evident in an on screen showing of GTFO.
-Quicksilver (X-Men: Days of Future past)
-Obi Wan (Star Wars franchise)
-Superman (MoS)
-Metro Man (Megamind)
-Agents (the Matrix)
-The Beast (Kung-Fu hustle)
-Russel Edgington (True Blood)
-G-Girl (My Super Ex Gf)
Metro Man, heard some shit about freezing air molecules through speed or some shit, so he prolly takes the cake (well, he was agreed to fodderise Quicksilver here so)
MoS Superman is Mach triple digit speeds to low end quadruple digit speeds
Quicksilver was calc'd at Mach 200 or some shit
Agents, been prolly 6 years since I watched the Matrix, don't they outrun explosions or something as of the last movie? Probably around about Mach double digits or something
Obi Wan, hard to say, Star Wars is kind of inconsistent, depends on what set of feats you use, though given they're deflection of blaster bolts which have super-hypersonic feats from close ranges, yeah, I'd say around that range conservatively speaking
**** if I know about the others
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Because precog helps you with things so much faster than you from close range, I mean, you'd still need a good enough reflex level for your precog to mean dick, as even with precog a normal human isn't exactly going to be dodging a bullet from a few meters away
Plus I'm personally not a fan of the idea that Force Users are just aim dodgers with precog when they still have to move their arms a meter to a meter and a half before the bolt reaches them
__________________ "I'm the hand of a god! I'm the dark messiah! I'm the vengeful one!
Except that's exactly what they do. They know where the bolt is going to be so they can move their saber into position before the shot is even fire. They aren't moving too fast for the human eye to keep up with.
Now sure, if we analyze every scene we will likely see some examples of Jedi blocking after the shot is fired. But if we are going to analyze it that closely then we should also analyze the speed of the blaster bolt in that case and it would be slow as hell.
It's really a catch 22 on your end.
Basically, at the end of the day, the Jedi in the films never move to fast for the human eye to keep up with. In film only continuity (or Disney canon for that matter) they are certainly not super-sonic nor anywhere near it.
Metro Man is fastest hands down. Time literally stopped at least on a city wide basis and he screwed around for hours. He even had a directed energy weapon/laser(in space I think) frozen as he went about his day.
Quicksilver is second. Bullets were practically standing still and he was moving so fast even the tiniest tap amplified the force transferred a great deal. If he'd been hitting those guys as hard as he could they would have imploded.
Beast is third. He caught a bullet from point blank with the opposite hand he'd fired with. Also he did it with his fingertips which is even harder. He and Sing both showed some pretty good fight speed throughout the movie.
Agents were dodging bullets and showing high speed fighting, however Neo easily blocked everything Smith could throw at him once he evolved. Although that's just Neo getting better as opposed to Smith downgrading. And while the Agents were fast, they weren't moving so fast humans fighting them in the Matrix couldn't fight back.
Obi-Wan has a pretty decent movement speed feat but that doesn't count. Even with precog, blocking blaster bolts casually is impressive. His fight with Anakin got pretty fast paced.
Superman was never really all that fast in a fight. Sure he could fly to India in a few minutes from the US, but Faora was dancing around him like he wasn't worth her time and he could barely keep up, if you could even call that keeping up.
Don'know enough about Russel or Super Bride to comment on them.
And like I said, they do at least move their arm a meter and a half before the bolt hits them, so yeah, still movement that's good enough for their precog to be relevant (again, a human isn't dodging bullet from less than 10 meters away even if he could see the future)
Or you know, take the best feats of a fictional universe and assume it to be definitive of their capability, like we do for every verse here when it comes to analysing fictional universes
Pretty regular chore in fiction, not really much of a justification
Why?
>implies losing to Faora is some kind of low end showing
__________________ "I'm the hand of a god! I'm the dark messiah! I'm the vengeful one!
Their blade reaches the bolt just before it reaches their body, if they were only low superhuman tier with precog, the blaster bolt would have reached their body before their lightsaber did
Try "pretty much every debating board this one included since vs debating became a thing"
Kind of why DBZ characters are relativistic planet busters or Bleach characters are hypersonic city busters, you know, top end feats (well that aren't SMvsFL type outliers anyhow)
__________________ "I'm the hand of a god! I'm the dark messiah! I'm the vengeful one!
They have precog... I don't know how you can't grasp this. With precog they could have already positioned the saber before the bolt is even fired.
I don't care about "pretty much every debating board this one included since vs debating became a thing" does. In the films, we see that the Jedi aren't moving anywhere close to hyper-sonic speeds. It's as simple as that.
Anyway, I'm done here. As anyone who has seen the films could clearly see Jedi don't move at hyper-sonic speeds.
Edit: I guess they can use force speed to run really fast. But even that doesn't appear to be anywhere near hypersonic.
Last edited by ares834 on Apr 22nd, 2015 at 07:29 AM
This thread is about combat speed, correct? So in this context, losing to Faora is a low showing as his speed is severely lacking. Even though that wasn't the point I was making, although you think it was. In that aspect Superman is pretty low on this list, because while he can fly fast as hell, he doesn't seem to be able to fight or react at those speeds.
If he did, he'd have schooled Faora as he was stronger. He wouldn't have been plodding around fighting Nam-Ek, and he and Zod's fight would have been a lot more fast paced.
And I'm saying they're reflexes are at least at a level where their precog is relevant, how fast exactly that is, hard to say, but not too far away
I'd also like to think that SW character are not dumb enough to fire at a blade that's already there/moving there before they squeeze the trigger
And they do regularly fight groups of guys who use blaster bolts from several different angles and are fired at different times not too far apart. No peak human could achieve this kind of shit
Good for you
Well hypersonic was a bit of a high end estimate on my part I'll admit (though given blaster bolt speed feats in Geonosis, Hoth, Kasshyk, etc, I don't see why supersonic is hard to believe) but you can't really judge how fast something is just by how fast it "looked", you could do this for any fictional universe otherwise
lolcombatspeedargument
Ugh, I feel the age old DBZ vs comic thread vibes
Except Namek intercepted Superman while he was in motion, either way, means that Zod and Namek are just that ****ing fast
And as I said, yeah, how fast it "looked" doesn't mean shit, only feats mean shit, else I could pull this logic in any other fictional universe
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Last edited by StealthRanger on Apr 22nd, 2015 at 08:03 AM
Okay so what you're saying is...despite combat between Clark and Zod looking(as well as being) really slow in comparison to Faora(whose own speed was essentially high speed dashes where she threw punches at the same time), that they're still super duper uber fast in a fight? Despite all evidence to the contrary? Gotcha.
My list still hasn't changed.
And whether you like it or not, combat speed does not = movement speed.
Neo can't fight as fast as he can fly.
MoS Superman can't fight as fast as he can fly.
Deadpool from Origins could block bullets all day, but he ran around like a normal guy.
etc...
You not liking something doesn't change the fact.
Last edited by KingD19 on Apr 22nd, 2015 at 08:36 AM
Yeah, that's just an argument from portrayal dude. Shit like speed lines, afterimages and blurs are just speed tropes meant to indicate speed, they're not quantifiers
There are many different ways of portraying speed in fiction, be it an instance of striking in a microsecond, or an instance of crossing thousands of kms in a second, or an instance of punching a character hundreds of thousands of times in a second. Speed feats come in different forms, and don't have to have speed lines or blurs to be legitimate
After all, Thor, Surfer and Glads have MFTL speed feats but they don't leave afterimages and speed lines and shit. Kenshin characters do leave speed lines, afterimages and blurs, yet only a select few character break the sound barrier
Feats and logical powerscaling always beat out stylistic portrayal
__________________ "I'm the hand of a god! I'm the dark messiah! I'm the vengeful one!
But really, if you try to say characters aren't x level of speed because they don't appear fast when they fight in some instances then that's just damn sad at best, and downright desperation at worst
You could use that argument in any fictional universe ever, seriously
Simple fact is that (quantifiable) speed feats are presented in different shapes and forms a few times throughout any series, everything else indicating super speed are just use of tropes, pretty much everything else is nobody being a ****ing retard and assuming they're going slower for no ****ing reason (if it's not stated, why assume such a thing)
I mean, let's be real, nobody's going to give two shits if x favorite DBZ character zipped around the planet several times in a few seconds in some instance, yet when the saga's namesake villain shows up and bitchslaps him they don't even zip between cities during their fight
And if you haven't grasped that concept by now, then what the hell you're doing in any vs debate is beyond me
__________________ "I'm the hand of a god! I'm the dark messiah! I'm the vengeful one!
What you need to realize is that film is a visual medium. We can only debate based on what we see, or what is directly stated. Even if it's just for effect to sell the illusion, if that's the illusion they're going for, that's all we can go on.
In Avengers, Quicksilver is fast enough to have a speed trail and people are pretty much standing still when he's doing his thing. There's no solid way to quantify his speed without some genius doing a bunch of calcs, but we know he's fast based on the world around him.
Superman based on what we see can fly really fast, but can't fight or react at high speeds like that. It's why his fight with Zod was basically haymakers and them crashing into each other. It's why it took everything he had to not get steamrolled by Faora who was the fastest thing in that movie by a mile.
Yeah that's what i figured, your entire argument revolves around use of flashy speed tropes and portrayal, all of which are useless unquantifiable garbage, until you find a quantifiable speed feat, which puts them into perspective how impressive they actually are
Also, yeah, that's the case with characters who are primarily portrayed as speedsters vs character where speed is just a secondary power
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Apr 22nd, 2015 06:21 AM
