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Revan vs Caedus
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Darth Truculent
Truth is written in Blood

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Revan vs Caedus

Force:
Saber:
All Out:

The Object of War is not to die for one's country, but to make the other son-on-a-***** die for his - George S. Patton

Old Post Dec 21st, 2008 01:13 AM
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ApolloCloud
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Has Caedus actually done anything impressive with the Force, like at all? I know his command of the Force was stated to be greater than that of Darth Vader, and I know all about his broad range of knowledge and all that, but in terms of power, what actually has he shown?

Traya, who's peers consisted of a planet eater and Force immortal, and who was actually pretty damn powerful herself, was pretty much in awe of Revan's power, and this even before he went on to amass a knowledge base that some would say is arguably one of the greatest ever for a being with his age and experience. I fail to see how Caedus at all compares to any of the top tier Force Users.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2008 04:42 AM
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Dr McBeefington
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Taven
Has Caedus actually done anything impressive with the Force, like at all? I know his command of the Force was stated to be greater than that of Darth Vader, and I know all about his broad range of knowledge and all that, but in terms of power, what actually has he shown?

Traya, who's peers consisted of a planet eater and Force immortal, and who was actually pretty damn powerful herself, was pretty much in awe of Revan's power, and this even before he went on to amass a knowledge base that some would say is arguably one of the greatest ever for a being with his age and experience. I fail to see how Caedus at all compares to any of the top tier Force Users.


The fact that he was able to stick with Luke in their incredible duel. He is most certainly a top tier force user. His force potential mixed with his knowledge of esoteric force techniques makes him top tier.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2008 05:27 AM
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Nephthys
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What!!? How does surviving in a lightsaber duel grant you uber pwnage skills in the force?
To tell you the truth, Caedus hasn't done anything really impressive with the force in a duel, except redirect a speeder. In terms of force lightning, Revan has been shown (alluded) to have the power to kill, Caedus hasn't (vs Jaina). By pure stint of that I would say he is more powerful in the force, or at least more skilled in the lethal arts.
Obviously though, Revan loses the saber duel. Unknown and all that.

Anyway, Revan fights are dumb. No experience.


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Old Post Dec 21st, 2008 09:08 AM
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Elite Hunter
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Taven
Has Caedus actually done anything impressive with the Force, like at all? I know his command of the Force was stated to be greater than that of Darth Vader, and I know all about his broad range of knowledge and all that, but in terms of power, what actually has he shown?
I list a few but one or two might not be combat related. But it is still a good indicator of his power. (sort of like what Revan did the rakatan)

1. Jacen was able to "fix Leia's future," with that force vision in the Joiner King, so she was "destined to see it".That was something that Luke never heard of jedi doing (no duh) and Mara didn't like the idea of.
2.In the Swarm War he was able block/ricochet canon blasts from a Chiss dropships's turbolasers. It was noted "that was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before."
3.In Inferno, he was able cut Ben off from the force without him noticing then he was able to reconnect him to the force.
4. His ability to hide in the force even when he is standing in front of Luke and Mara.
5. Twice in Bloodlines, Caedus used force illusions to hide Lumiya 's identity/force presence right in front of Luke so he could only "faintly" detect her but he had no idea she was actually standing a few feet from him.
6.His use of shatterpoint in Invincible.

I could list a few more if you techniques if you want to see them.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
In terms of force lightning, Revan has been shown (alluded) to have the power to kill, Caedus hasn't (vs Jaina). By pure stint of that I would say he is more powerful in the force, or at least more skilled in the lethal arts.

In fairness however, the rakatan aren't force sensitive and Jaina is powerful in the force. I still think Revan had more sith knowledge than Caedus (who hada broader knowledge overall) but that doesn't help much if we don't know some of the technqiues he learned. Wait why haven't we had a lot of Jaina Solo threads since Invincible came out?

Last edited by Elite Hunter on Dec 21st, 2008 at 12:31 PM

Old Post Dec 21st, 2008 12:28 PM
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Gideon
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By the way, Caedus demonstrates a proficiency with illusions that surpasses Luke's own skill in the Dark Nest trilogy, deceiving (and by Luke's own admission, "manipulating him") into believing Mara was injured in battle.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2008 03:39 PM
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Eminence
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
In terms of force lightning, Revan has been shown (alluded) to have the power to kill, Caedus hasn't (vs Jaina).
Revan has shown the ability to kill non-Force-sensitives with his lightning. A battered, eighteen year-old Jacen almost killed Vergere - a Jedi Knight and former apprentice of the Sith - and brought down a ceiling with his in Traitor.

quote:
By pure stint of that I would say he is more powerful in the force, or at least more skilled in the lethal arts.
That's a terrible assumption.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2008 08:12 PM
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xxxpoppunker182
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Gideon
By the way, Caedus demonstrates a proficiency with illusions that surpasses Luke's own skill in the Dark Nest trilogy, deceiving (and by Luke's own admission, "manipulating him") into believing Mara was injured in battle.


but by the end of legacy I think it's pretty clear that Luke's skills surpass Jacens...............and NOT because Jacen is dead.

Old Post Dec 21st, 2008 11:26 PM
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Lord Lucien
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Even with as little as we know of Reva, I'd give this to Caedus.


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Old Post Dec 22nd, 2008 06:30 AM
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Nephthys
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quote:
Revan has shown the ability to kill non-Force-sensitives with his lightning.


I think its already been argued and established that Force Sensitives don't have innate resistence to FL. Unless I'm mistaken Jaina wasn't blocking or resisting when he hit her with FL, so pretty much they were operating under the same circumstances. Revan Killed (multiple opponents), Caedus Didn't.

quote:
A battered, eighteen year-old Jacen almost killed Vergere - a Jedi Knight and former apprentice of the Sith -


Did she even attempt to stop him? Did she try blocking him? I actually checked this on Wookieepedia and it would appear that this happened off page, so we have no idea of what actually happened.

quote:
and brought down a ceiling with his in Traitor.


Yes, this is impressive. I'd still like some more info on that scene but that is good. And yet he still couldn't kill or at least incapacitate his sister with it.

quote:
That's a terrible assumption.


It's not an assumption when its supported by facts and logic, its an analysis. And mine says Revan is better at FL then Caedus.


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Old Post Dec 22nd, 2008 12:02 PM
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Eminence
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I think its already been argued and established that Force Sensitives don't have innate resistence to FL. Unless I'm mistaken Jaina wasn't blocking or resisting when he hit her with FL, so pretty much they were operating under the same circumstances. Revan Killed (multiple opponents), Caedus Didn't.
The circumstances weren't remotely similar. On one hand, you have Revan killing an unknown number of primitive tribal warriors with his lightning. On the other, you have several instances of Jacen - both as a young Jedi and an older Sith - using his lightning directly against a Force-sensitive individual.

quote:
Did she even attempt to stop him? Did she try blocking him? I actually checked this on Wookieepedia and it would appear that this happened off page, so we have no idea of what actually happened.
Sure we do.

quote:
Yes, this is impressive. I'd still like some more info on that scene but that is good.
There was far more than I'd remembered:

quote:
She lay crumpled on the floor a few meters away, just within a ragged archway lipped with jagged stone, as though some incomprehensibly powerful creature had trampled her as it crashed through the wall.

Broken stone littered the floor. Her clothing was shredded, smoldering, red embers sliding along torn edges, and burned flesh beneath it still smoked.


I could provide more passages detailing how completely ruined Vergere was by the burst of lightnign that strick her, but I find Jacen's effect on the environment and the Vong to be more interesting.

quote:

He remembered the wild joy of release as the power of the storm had roared into him and through him and became a mad vortex within the underground chamber, lifting stone and brick and chunks of duracrete to whirl and batter and slash the Yuuzhan Vong, pounding the warriors with pieces of the planet that had once been Jacen's home. A shrug of wind had crushed the Yuuzhan Vong into one corner of the chamber, and he remembered bubbling laughter exploding with malice into a shout of victory as he had reached up his hand and brought down the building around them.



quote:
And yet he still couldn't kill or at least incapacitate his sister with it.
This would be why:

quote:
Apparently not, because as soon as she began to gasp for breath, his hand shot up, the fingers splayed and pointed in her direction. Jaina barely brought her lightsaber around in time to absorb the forks of blue lightning that came dancing toward her chest.

Then Caedus stepped forward, the Force lightning still shooting from his fingertips. Jaina could not believe what she was seeing. With that wound, he was coming after her.


quote:
He splayed his fingers and sprayed Force lightning at her.


Those were the only two instances he used his lightning against his sister, and she used her lightsaber - that thing alongside the Force that the Rakatans didn't have - to block it. I could post examples of him telekinetically owning her.

And keep in mind that in his final duel with Jaina, he was fighting with one arm, was still suffering from wounds obtained earlier, and had just had a lightsaber shoved through his gut. He also tried to walk away from the duel, hurling Jaina away and attempting to leave. And still at the end of the duel, the best Jaina could hope to accomplish was take Jacen out in a kamikaze strike; if he hadn't lowered his weapon to warn his wife, he would've killed his sister.

quote:
It's not an assumption when its supported by facts and logic, its an analysis. And mine says Revan is better at FL then Caedus.
It's supported by neither facts nor logic.

Old Post Dec 22nd, 2008 09:15 PM
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Elite Hunter
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^ Also of note in his duels with Jaina, is the fact that he could only shoot lightning at her with his one remaining arm. He could do a lot more harm to her in this scene (from their first duel) if he had both arms.

Caedus deactivated his lightsaber and let it drop between them. Jaina felt the beskad begin to bite, then her brother's palm sank deep into the pit of her stomach. In the next instant she was riding a bolt of Force lightning across the chamber, her muscles cramping, her teeth grinding, her ears roaring with the fiery sizzle of burning synapses.

A full second later, she slammed into a durasteel wall and felt a terrible popping in her ribs, then dropped to the floor, still holding her lightsaber and the beskad. The Force lightning had died away, but her muscles remained useless aching knots, and the stench of scorched flesh was so powerful she wanted to retch. Instead, she tried to rise-and succeeded only in sparking a dozen different kinds of pain.

Across the chamber, her brother was in little better shape. He sat slumped in a half-collapsed chair, his remaining hand clamped over the stump of his missing arm, his thigh wound dripping blood onto the floor. His yellow eyes were staring at Jaina more in confusion than rage, and his head was cocked as though he could not quite believe what he was seeing.

Last edited by Elite Hunter on Dec 22nd, 2008 at 09:31 PM

Old Post Dec 22nd, 2008 09:26 PM
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Nephthys
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quote:
The circumstances weren't remotely similar. On one hand, you have Revan killing an unknown number of primitive tribal warriors with his lightning. On the other, you have several instances of Jacen - both as a young Jedi and an older Sith - using his lightning directly against a Force-sensitive individual.


The circumstances are very similar if none of the time Caedus used it was actually resisted. Just being Force-sensitive doesn't mean you can tank Force Lightning.

quote:
quote:
She lay crumpled on the floor a few meters away, just within a ragged archway lipped with jagged stone, as though some incomprehensibly powerful creature had trampled her as it crashed through the wall.

Broken stone littered the floor. Her clothing was shredded, smoldering, red embers sliding along torn edges, and burned flesh beneath it still smoked.


I could provide more passages detailing how completely ruined Vergere was by the burst of lightnign that strick her,


I'm becoming more impressed by Jacen but the fact remains that Revan can produce lethal effects and Jacen can't, or, at least, hasn't. There also isn't any evidence that Vergere tryed to block the lightning or dampened it even a little.

quote:


He remembered the wild joy of release as the power of the storm had roared into him and through him and became a mad vortex within the underground chamber, lifting stone and brick and chunks of duracrete to whirl and batter and slash the Yuuzhan Vong, pounding the warriors with pieces of the planet that had once been Jacen's home. A shrug of wind had crushed the Yuuzhan Vong into one corner of the chamber, and he remembered bubbling laughter exploding with malice into a shout of victory as he had reached up his hand and brought down the building around them.



Again Impressive, but this is actually what appears to be Force whirlwind or simple TK, 'A shrug of wind'. Nothing in here says anything about Jacens proficientcy with FL.

quote:
Apparently not, because as soon as she began to gasp for breath, his hand shot up, the fingers splayed and pointed in her direction. Jaina barely brought her lightsaber around in time to absorb the forks of blue lightning that came dancing toward her chest.

Then Caedus stepped forward, the Force lightning still shooting from his fingertips. Jaina could not believe what she was seeing. With that wound, he was coming after her.


quote:
He splayed his fingers and sprayed Force lightning at her.


I'm confused, this wasn't the instance I had in mind.

quote:
And keep in mind that in his final duel with Jaina, he was fighting with one arm, was still suffering from wounds obtained earlier, and had just had a lightsaber shoved through his gut. He also tried to walk away from the duel, hurling Jaina away and attempting to leave. And still at the end of the duel, the best Jaina could hope to accomplish was take Jacen out in a kamikaze strike; if he hadn't lowered his weapon to warn his wife, he would've killed his sister.


Yeah, Caedus totally outclasses his sister. And he's one tough Mother, but no living Human can shrug of lethal levels of electricity and just keep coming.

quote:
Caedus deactivated his lightsaber and let it drop between them. Jaina felt the beskad begin to bite, then her brother's palm sank deep into the pit of her stomach. In the next instant she was riding a bolt of Force lightning across the chamber, her muscles cramping, her teeth grinding, her ears roaring with the fiery sizzle of burning synapses.

A full second later, she slammed into a durasteel wall and felt a terrible popping in her ribs, then dropped to the floor, still holding her lightsaber and the beskad. The Force lightning had died away, but her muscles remained useless aching knots, and the stench of scorched flesh was so powerful she wanted to retch. Instead, she tried to rise-and succeeded only in sparking a dozen different kinds of pain.

Across the chamber, her brother was in little better shape. He sat slumped in a half-collapsed chair, his remaining hand clamped over the stump of his missing arm, his thigh wound dripping blood onto the floor. His yellow eyes were staring at Jaina more in confusion than rage, and his head was cocked as though he could not quite believe what he was seeing.


A-HA! This was the one I was thinking of, here's where he hits her with FL and fails to kill her. While now I can see that he's not exactly 100%, his lightning is still not even enough to incapacitate her, while Revan used it to kill multiple Rakatan. A concentrated blast against just Caedus would be alot more powerful than the spread-out version/reserved version.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2008 12:49 AM
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Elite Hunter
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
A-HA! This was the one I was thinking of, here's where he hits her with FL and fails to kill her. While now I can see that he's not exactly 100%, his lightning is still not even enough to incapacitate her, while Revan used it to kill multiple Rakatan. A concentrated blast against just Caedus would be alot more powerful than the spread-out version/reserved version.


Not exactly a hundred percent? He just got an arm amputated (plus other unarmed and maybe force hits I believe) and still almost incapacitated her, with two arms that would be double the arcs of lightning coming at Jaina I don't see her being conscious at the very least.

I'm going out for a while and then doing some hw so I might be on later tonight to reply to your reply.

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2008 12:59 AM
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Eminence
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The circumstances are very similar if none of the time Caedus used it was actually resisted.
You don't know under what circumstances Revan killed the scouting parties, Exodus, nor do we know how many he killed. Or for that matter, whether he used one or both hands (weird, I know).

The one thing we do know is that he certainly didn't do it with one arm freshly blown off, a shoulder wound, a thigh wound leaking onto the floor, and while under the astounded impression that he was fighting the greatest swordsman in history. This would be ignoring every other injury he acquired from blasterfire or the concussive effects of being hurled through a row of seats, nor does it factor in the unhealed wounds he'd sustained before the battle.

quote:
I'm becoming more impressed by Jacen but the fact remains that Revan can produce lethal effects and Jacen can't, or, at least, hasn't.
I'll try to find more.

quote:
There also isn't any evidence that Vergere tryed to block the lightning or dampened it even a little.
She was still just about dead. Her robes and flesh had been literally burnt, and she was a crumpled heap against the wall rasping out her sermon to Jacen. That after he violently regained his connection to the Force, and while he was a teenager.

Thirteen years later, and now more powerful than even Darth Vader, I think it goes without saying that he would've obliterated her.

quote:
Again Impressive, but this is actually what appears to be Force whirlwind or simple TK, 'A shrug of wind'. Nothing in here says anything about Jacens proficientcy with FL.
I know. But it was still incredible, and speaks to his Force-prowess as a whole when he was just eighteen.

quote:
I'm confused, this wasn't the instance I had in mind.
My mistake. I passed over the first duel.

quote:
Yeah, Caedus totally outclasses his sister. And he's one tough Mother, but no living Human can shrug of lethal levels of electricity and just keep coming.
Luke Skywalker can. Palpatine can. Galen Marek can. Talon can. If you're willing to stretch the definition of "human" a little, Maul can, too.

And considering what Caedus has walked through in the past, I don't think it'd be a stretch at all to say he could tank almost anyone's Force-lightning.

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2008 04:20 AM
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Darth Truculent
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No where did it mention that Jacen was able to summon a Force Storm. With all the collected knowledge of the Sith, Revan would be more than a match for Caedus. Sure any nitwit can summon FL - Zekk, Kyp, Jaina, Jacen, Tahiri & Luke. Probably Alema Rar went she went mad too. Too call on the dark side to creat a FS, that takes a shitload of power.

Revan was a true Sith Lord. Caedus wasn't. Did he kill his Master? Nope. Did Caedus kill his pathetic excuse of an apprentice? Nope. How many fully trained Jedi did he actually kill? Two I believe. How many Jedi did Caedus turn to the dark side? One - well sort of. Ben "saved" Tahiri. Revan was able to turn hundreds of Jedi and twist them according to his will during the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. Was Revan distracted by outside influences? Nope. Was Caedus? Yes. He constantly worried about Tenal Ka and Allana. A true Sith wouldn't give a shit about who got in their way.

In short, Caedus would be able to take a lightsaber duel. Revan takes the last two.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2008 06:32 PM
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Vorpal Ruin
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You are nuts. Revan would not beat Caedus in an all-out fight. Are you suggesting that a criteria for being a DLoTS is turning mass people to the dark side? I don't think that Bane or Vader turned many to the darkside, did they? They must not be true DLoTS'.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2008 06:56 PM
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Gideon
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Jesus H. Christ, this is why I hate KotOR.

Look, there's only one real type of Force Storm and that is the hyperspace wormhole, a rip in the space/time continuum, summoned by Emperor Palpatine and only Emperor Palpatine; Darth Revan nor Darth Caedus are capable of wielding it.

The "Force storm" from the KotOR games is simply an elevated version of Sith lightning. Nothing particularly special. Bane was able to do that in a couple of hours.


Edit: I have to agree with Darth Truculent. Caedus isn't a Sith Lord; he's a complete joke. But the reason I proclaim Caedus to be a wannabe Sith is because the true Sith Order died at Endor. All subsequent "Sith" are pretenders.

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2008 06:57 PM
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Darth Truculent
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Revan created the "One Master - One Apprentice. One to embody the power, the other to crave it"

The Force is stronger than a lightsaber. Revan would annihilate Caedus in a duel of the Force. Why do I say Revan takes all out? Revan would wear Caedus down in the Force. Revan has all the collected knowledge of the Sith. Caedus in my opinion was only partially a Sith. Lumiya was not a true dark lady of the Sith. Kyp would be able to kick her ass.

Caedus FL is not as strong as Revan's. Revan is able to use a FS. For some unknown reason, Lumiya never trained Caedus in the use of FS because she didn't know it. Neither did Vader. Sidious probably knew FS because he was the strongest Sith (maybe), but he didn't teach it to Dooku or Vader. Strange isn't it?

Caedus only received partial training in the dark side. Shadow Academy and Lumiya. He didn't complete it because he didn't kill Lumiya. Luke did. Sure, he killed Mara who was a JM, but that doesn't make him special. Revan collected all of the knowledge of the Sith and learned it because he craved it's power. He despised weakness due to the Mandalorian Wars. Caedus never went to Korriban or Malachor. He was perfectly content to stay aboard the Anakin Solo. Malak was a far better apprentice than Tahiri. Tahiri felt bad about killing. At least Malak tried to kill Revan. Malak was ruthless. A true Sith has to be ruthless. Caedus should have been willing to kill Tenel Ka & Allana. Caedus wasn't.

Revan killed far more Jedi than Caedus. On Korriban he fought his way to destroy his former apprentice and succeeded. Caedus didn't - he stopped fighting Jaina and allowed himself to be killed. Revan never would have let that happen. That is why Caedus would never win. He isn't ruthless enough. He wasn't a true Sith - just another dark side user. Like Zekk once was.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2008 07:12 PM
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Gideon
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I'd love it if you could do us all the honor of actually providing evidence for your (bullshit) claims.

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2008 07:28 PM
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