Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
ROTJ Luke vs Vader Thoughts
This duel has got be my overall favorite duel in the movies. Imo Luke is nowhere near Vader's level of skill in terms of lightsaber combat. At this point in time, I'd call Luke's style an imitation of Vader's Form V that he made through fighting Vader on Bespin and copying the style, along with some Ataru training from Yoda and basics of Shii-Cho from Kenobi.
Essentially, it appears Luke had an ability to fight an opponent and then consequently imitate their style, since he was such a prodigy in the force. This is confirmed in Fightsaber. Luke's style was mainly him mirroring Vader's Form V.
Throughout the whole fight Vader isn't on his A game. He didn't want to kill Luke, and he was holding back. In the first part of the fight Luke is enraged, and gets amped enough to basically force Vader back and kick him down the stairs, mirroring his fathers style.
It's interesting to note the kick though. Using your whole body, not just your lightsaber, is a core element of Form IV Ataru. Yoda must have trained Luke in some aspects of it, especially that element. Vader comments 'Obi Wan has taught you well.' Obviously thinking it was Kenobi that taught him that Ataru aspect (Kenobi was an Ataru specialist until a little after AoTC).
When Luke calms down, he adopts a defensive stance. Now that he isn't amped, he appears to have some trouble holding Vader's power blows back. Ultimately though, Luke avoids fighting Vader entirely, trying to talk his father back to the light.
In the last part, Luke gets amped again, even more than before, and mirrors Vader's Form V, which again is confirmed by Fightsaber. You can even see it in the actual movie. Luke is countering and following up with power blows. Vader again however is not on his A game.
I like to compare this last part to Anakin when he was amped to a 9. With the dark side he was basically on Sidious' level. Luke obviously, who had less training, didn't get 9 fighting Vader, but he got amped enough to beat down Vader, although Vader again was not on his A game.
But then, did Anakin have the same ability to mirror his opponent's style? Is this specific to Luke? Or did Luke only do it because he lacked real training and therefore needed to mirror Vader in order to form a personal style?
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Explain?
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Vader is noted to be fighting harder than he ever has in the comic, and he was willing to kill his son if nothing else worked, according to the novelization.
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Luke is definitely the superior swordsman in Legends, by the time of ROTJ. I think Vader still has him beat in the Force, but the result of the duel speaks for itself.
As far as canon goes, I honestly think Vader was holding back.
Luke legitimately defeated Vader in Legends and 6 months later it was said Lukes power power in the Force according to Cronal surpassed Vaders in Shadows of Mindor.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Okay so we look at Legends then, how did Luke become a better swordsman than Vader before the fight? If Vader was trying, then obviously it must have been Luke being able to mirror Form V and use his amp from emotions and pure force ability to stomp Vader.
Cos Vader obviously has the better pure skill as the swordsman.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Vader has better technical skill, Luke has better innate skill. Besides, he's trained under Yoda for several months to the point that he could challenge Vader(Fightsaber and Shadows of the Empire note this) and now he's further enhanced his skills by studying from Obi-Wan's journals. I'd imagine a considerable growth in skill would be in order.
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
I guess that's what I was saying; in that Luke had an innate ability to mirror his adversaries form. So he trained with Yoda for several months? I guess that makes more sense now.
Less than a year of training and Luke could contend with Vader. I guess that's more due to his Skywalker lineage and his innate force potential than anything else, which makes sense.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Mar 23rd, 2017 03:06 PM
