mas oyama versus bruce lee (both in their prime)
Bruce lee- the superstar, the legend, the creator of one of the most efficient and dealy forms of true combat on earth,the man who was the fastest hands on earth, " The Dragon"
V.S.
Mas Oyama- the legend, the man who trained for nearly two years alone in the forest,the man who had over 200 real-life fights(most being won in under 1 minute, the man who knocked out bulls with one punch,"The God Hand"
Bruce Lee is a better martial artist and more free from limitations of form.
BUT
He's woefully inexperienced in actual fights. He's only been in a few of them, and only one since founding Jeet Kune Do.
Mas Oyama is a bear of a man, and knows how to disregard his style to just grab a mutha and knock him out.
Mas wins.
This is up my alley. I'm really into bareknuckle sparring and it's no picnic. Mas Oyama was the man at this. Along with his Kyokushinkai Karate. To the rest of the world, Oyama's style was dubbed "The Most Feared Karate"... His famous Ni-Hyaku kumite or two hundred person kumite was done against like 50 or so of his students. They all stood in a line and one after the other each student was sent to the chopping block, which many of them were knocked out at least once, and some of them twice. On the other hand Bruce Lee, founder of Jeet kune Do/The intercepting fist, was extremely quick, and hit as hard as men twice his size. Variations of Jeet Kune Do are are Jun Fan Gung Fu, Wei Kuen Do, and Jeet Kune Do Concepts. Probaly the most well known and versatile martial art today that contains the concepts of 26 different martial arts. Bruce lee took the best techniques and concepts from these 26 arts and discarded the rest, and put it into a style that is not a style. But a way of combat. Simplicity was the key.
In a battle between these two is really hard to judge. In street a fight, I'd give the edge to Bruce. In a bare-knuckle Karate competition, I'd give it to Mas Oyama. Still both fights could go either way. Raw Speed+Strength+Technique+Power Vs Speed+Agility+Technique+Power.... Very hard to judge. Could go either way. Sigh...
Originally posted by Sentry
This is up my alley. I'm really into bareknuckle sparring and it's no picnic. Mas Oyama was the man at this. Along with his Kyokushinkai Karate. To the rest of the world, Oyama's style was dubbed "The Most Feared Karate"... His famous Ni-Hyaku kumite or two hundred person kumite was done against like 50 or so of his students. They all stood in a line and one after the other each student was sent to the chopping block, which many of them were knocked out at least once, and some of them twice. On the other hand Bruce Lee, founder of Jeet kune Do/The intercepting fist, was extremely quick, and hit as hard as men twice his size. Variations of Jeet Kune Do are are Jun Fan Gung Fu, Wei Kuen Do, and Jeet Kune Do Concepts. Probaly the most well known and versatile martial art today that contains the concepts of 26 different martial arts. Bruce lee took the best techniques and concepts from these 26 arts and discarded the rest, and put it into a style that is not a style. But a way of combat. Simplicity was the key.In a battle between these two is really hard to judge. In street a fight, I'd give the edge to Bruce. In a bare-knuckle Karate competition, I'd give it to Mas Oyama. Still both fights could go either way. Raw Speed+Strength+Technique+Power Vs Speed+Agility+Technique+Power.... Very hard to judge. Could go either way. Sigh...
Of the styles I have done one of them is Jeet Kune Do, and the other ShotoKai (the genesis of Shotokan), in which i am a Ni-Dan.
I couldn't have written it better myself. As you said, Sifu Lee would have the edge in a street fight, while Masutatsu (Mas) Oyama would win in a bare-knuckle full-contact Karate bout. And again, just as you said, it could go either way. Both, at their prime, were amazing fighters. Both started extremely effective fighting styles (Jeet Kune Do is considered one of the premier styles since it integrates everything from striking to dumog grappling, with the other hgihly ranked styles being the three Israeli arts of Haganah, Hirsadut, and Krav Maga; which also look at all areas of combat - from striking to grappling to trapping to biting). PErfect for street fights. I know.
Soke Masutatsu Oyama on the other hand started what is considered to be arguably the most effective style of Karate. Kyokunshikai Karate-do is just an amazing style of Karate that is based on real-life fighting. And bone-crushing fighting. Mas Oyama had several nicknames, one of them being the 'Godhand.' Basically if he hit you you broke. He hit your rib cage you splintered ribs. You blocked his punch you broke your forearm. He used to practice against bulls and wild dogs. He never lost.
The only other Karate style that is as effective (as a whole) is the Sabaki method, which can be applied to any particular style. Melding the Sabaki method and Kyokunshai together forms a rather powerful art.
Anyways, a fight between Lee and Oyama could go either way. Lee is far faster than Oyama, but Oyama had power in spades (and was not slow). Lee would go for targeted areas during the straight blast, and he could disable a person within a second (eg it was hard to even see his eye jab). Mas Oyama on the other hand destroyed anything his fist touched.
It could go either way. But, in a street fight where both are wearing jeans and shoes I'd give it to Bruce. JKD is solely based on real-world fighting. Put them in a dojo and it is Oyama's game.
However, the above could easily go the other way. I once saw footage of Lee kick one of the winners at a national Karate tournament so fast the guy was humiliated (it was then that he got respect from Japanese stylists, who before that thought he was just another skinny movie star). And OYama had been in more street fights than anyone this side of hell!
No winner.
Bruce lee was not the fastest. He admitted that one of his students was faster than he was. I can't remember his name though. But Bruce lee was a wonderful mix of speed and power. And he even turn a suppose weakness (his shorter leg) into a strength (quickness and added power to his side kick). We saw so much of lee and very little of Oyama who spent his life hardening his body and strengthening his skill. He was apparently very strong before he completed his martial arts skill, thus killing a guy when he was a young man. What it boils down to is who is the greater warrior, because there is no superior style. People who have fought outside of tournaments i.e. real life knows all that stuff goes out the window when you are fighting for your life. In a real fight there is too much to adapt too. Anyway. I have to give it to lee. Oyama is a bad mo fo, but bruce lee has handled adversity on all levels like a true warrior. I give it to bruce lee. In a street fight he'd win in five minutes. In a match, it would be the tenth round.
jeet kune do is nowere one of the "deadlist fighting arts".
i've never even seen if properly used.
one guy from ifc was jeet kune do but used more jiu jiujitsu than he did stand fighting.
i'm not saying lee wasn't tough but how many matches did he actualy have?
how many vale tudo tournements did he enter?
you can speculate all you want but in the end i don't belive lee was tough at all.
he was a pioneer in bringing the martial arts to america,I admit that,but i'm not gonna learn a fighting style that incoperates its founder being some sort of super human that could do amazing techinques.
i would rather learn an art that i can use something from that day if my life was realy in danger
Yeah, Bruce Lee was only in, I believe, three fights since founding Jeet Kune Do. One of them was the famous fight to earn the right to teach his style to Westerners. But it actually was a poor showing. It took a really long time, and Bruce was winded afterwards. Eyewitnesses say he didn't really even win the fight. And the guy he was fighting was only halfway through his training (he only learned the external portion of his art at the time). Bruce was so discouraged with his performance that he basically scrapped jun fan kickboxing, leaving behind Wing Chun almost entirely and started again. The second fight was against Gene Lebell, a famous wrestler. It wasn't a REAL, REAL fight, but Bruce tried a few trapping techniques which Gene basically shrugged off and just grabbed him and put him in about a million different holds, giving him lots of nuggies in each hold. Bruce was embarassed, then asked him to train him in judo and jiu-jitsu. I can't remember the details of the third fight, but it was basically inconclusive and it's what caused Bruce to throw out his second incarnation of JKD entirely and start from scratch AGAIN.
The problem was (and Bruce himself admitted this) mainly that Bruce had a lot of speed, but didn't have what he called "stopping power", the ability to end the fight with sheer punching force. He fought against any number of guys who just walked through his hits and he found it to be a bit frustrating, so he began to integrate "stopping techniques" into his style, which mainly consisted of setting up a straight blast, which transformed into locking technique in the grappling range which could give him the option of breaking a limb. He was really trying to beef up his grappling game towards the end of his life, but he died before becoming competent in it. So JKD was largely incomplete. That's why a lot of JKD guys get owned at UFC championships.
That's also why I'd give Mas the edge. I don't think Bruce had enough power to really put him down short of dirty fighting. But don't think Mas doesn't have a bunch of dirty tricks up his sleeve.
One last thing - Mas wasn't undefeated. He lost two fights. One of them, ironically, was to a Wing Chun practitioner named William Cheung. The other was to a little known Brazilian dude named Gracie. 😉
i like lee don't get me wrong,but i think too many people have misconceptions of "real fighting".
the closet thing to real fighting we ever had was the orginal ufc in the early 90's.
today it's still closs but not as much.
i don't want to disrespect any fighting style but can you realy consider anything a true fighting style that isn't ring proven?
ring proven? So when you refer to fights you are referring to tournaments. I wasn't sure. Do you agree that tournaments are not good proving grounds for ones ability to fight? I suppose you think I am kidding, but that is the only way I can think of a fight--that rush you get when you have no idea whether you may live or die. I have fought in the ring, (boxing, judo, wrestling, and karate) but it is not the same. Before I was taught to fight by the military and Dr. Turse, I ran into a few martial artist. someone who had studied ju jitsu, and another who had studied shotokan. For each one our fight didn't last a minute. They seemed so weak to me. This was before I had studied anything. Later when I entered tournaments I could not be as effective fighter because it wasn't the same (oh, i was good, but I was not unstoppable which is what I am used to). The rules limit you to protect you and your opponent. But sometimes to win you must sacrifice yourself in battle. I choose bruce lee, because he will not limit himself by his conscience in a street fight. Oyama, I can't really be sure but judging from his fighting style he seems to be a man of scruples which will work against him in a street fight.
i'm not saying tournements don't work.
the problem is most tournements involve the same style or branches from the same style.
in learning most artforms the defense moves involved seemed to always rely on the opponent fighting within the same style
tournements work best with mixed styles and very very little rules
I have seen many different biographies that stated that Lee was continually fighting in street fights because many who trained in the martial arts wanted to test him and his new style.
There is even a black and white home video floating around out there somewhere of some guy who was sitting on a wall watching Bruce film a movie who then jumped down and challenged him in front of the crew in between takes. He was taken out in a few seconds.
By the way, if anyone knows where I can download that b/w film i'd much appreciate it.