Hall of the Honored Fallen

Ho, good warriors! I bid thee welcome to this most glorious of feasts! Here we shall share tales of battles won and lost, and of valor rightly earned on the hallowed battlefields of KMC.

{end Asgardian accent}

K fellas, here's the run-down:

1 - This will act as the official discussion thread for all tournaments, past and present. Leave upcoming tourney plans out of this. Basically, I hope to be able to share stories from past tournaments: strategies, debates, participants, etc.

2 - All are welcome. But "The Honored Fallen" will be arbitrarily selected by me as people who have suffered crushing defeats in tourney matches that were hard-fought. It is intended to mirror the Hall of Asgard where fallen warriors drink mead, tell glorious stories, and await the final battle.

3 - That last part is for sh*ts and giggles, and if anyone becomes snippy over it, I won't shed tears over ditching the idea. It's not a team or even a group, just a fun (and sad) distinction. But this is first and foremost a discussion thread for a specific KMC phenomenon (tourneys). See that it stays on-topic.

4 - I intend to someday retire from tourneys, and at that time I also intend to share my "collected wisdom" with anyone who wishes to hear it. Tourney vets are encouraged to share bits of wisdom or advice as they see fit.

5 - Speaking like Asgardians is encouraged ( 😉 ), as are ludicrously dramatic (but true) tales of valor on the "battlefield."

6 - Our lists are posted below, covering a wide range of tourney history. These are for fun, so you can suggest new lists or amendments to current ones, but don't get upset over them.

Resources

Tournament Respect Thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t443343.html

Guide for Tournament Directors (also useful for participants): http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8474873#post8474873

And for all your heathenry needs, this is an excellent online store for all sorts of mythological sweetness:
http://www.northworld-international.com/en

Using this post our lists. I'm sure Faceman won't mind.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
List of "Hall of the Honored Fallen" Inductees:
Khellendros, Long Pig, Krissy Von Doom (KVD), Loot (Norrin Radd)

Respect Thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t443343.html

[b]The Lists: Entry #1

"Hardest/easiest tournament" uses the following criteria: If an average debater from today were to enter each tourney, how hard/easy would it be for them to win? It does take into account era, so it is assumed that no scans would be allowed in the early tournaments (I-III or IV), even for our hypothetical modern participant.

Hardest Tournament:

3 - Iron Man Team Tournament (V) (Winner: Blair Wind)
Why: It was the tournament where the "old guard" vets seemed to meet the newest debaters of the current generation. There were precious few easy-outs, even in a 16 man tourney. Scan-heavy posts also made the scene for the first time, making it a rough transition for some.

2 - Herald Team Tournament (VI) (Winners: Leo and Kahn)
Why: Very little prep put an emphasis on character debating more than any tourney in the modern era, and partner tournaments are always a shade tougher because you have to coordinate plans with our partner and also make sure both partners are dedicated enough to win.

1 - Under Thanos Team Tourney (VIII) (Winners: Darkcrawler and Blair)
Why: Competition. There was one team that was a pushover, then every other team in the whole tourney was not only strong but a threat to win it all. Many felt that the best team, bran and goober with Adaptoid, Despero, and Earth X Absorbing Man, was actually the best in the tourney. And they lost in the semis. Not that crazy plans hadn't happened until this point (they had) but "prep time" took on a whole new meaning as teams went from a groups of herald types to Skyfather-busting meshes and beyond. And the finals match probably had more tourney experience in it than any match before or since, and was decided 3-2 by a hair's length.

The Lists: Entry #2

Most Crushing Loss

3 - illadelph12 vs. Blair Wind (Tourney V)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=391348&pagenumber=1
Illadelph took the loss hard, and rightly so, because it was an incredibly hard fought match on both sides.

2 - Khellendros vs. Scoobless (Tourney II)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=331132
...this was Khell's closest and best chance at a tourney win. He was initially up in the poll only to be overtaken late.

1 - Scoob/Digi vs. Blair/DC (Tourney VIII)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t442032.html
...sorry to make myself #1 here, but it really was. Blair and Scoob had their tourney wins already, but DC and I had a lot riding on it. With the judges locked 2-2, and both plans at feverishly ludicrous levels, both teams threw out last-second arguments to try to swing the last judge to their side. And a week after the tourney, Scoob and I happened upon a scan that may have countered their main point against our prep.

The Lists: Entry #3

Easiest Tourney (same criteria as Hardest)

Please note: "easiest" does not mean "worst" as there is a lot to be said for all of these tournaments listed below. This is simply an assessment of the difficulty in winning each one.

3 - Evangel's 2nd Multi-Level Tourney (VII)
Why: We weren't always so able to field multiple tourneys at one time, and Scoobless was able to use his experience in past tourneys to best a comparatively weak field (some good debaters, but many were very new to tourneys), because it took place at the same time as another tourney (VIII), which had already siphoned away many of KMC's elite at the time.

2 - Low Meta Team Amalgam (X)
Why: Ill's current tourney boasts excellent debaters and powerful strategies, but has suffered from people dropping out. Regardless of the competition level, when showing up assures a team of a spot in the semis, the odds are more in a team's favor than most tourneys.

1 - KMC's First Multi-Level Tourney (I)
Why: Not a testament to the participants or tourney itself, which pioneered the idea of tourneys here on KMC, but it's just an undeniable fact that the quality of tournaments has improved drastically. The first tournament was groping in the dark with strategies and rules, so it's to be commended for setting the base for future tourneys, but one cannot look at it today and not see how the knowledge of the forums has increased monumentally.

The Lists: Entry #4

Best Character Never to Win (thanks to newjak for compiling this list)

3) Spider-man:
With only one low-meta tourney completed you'd think Spiderman's blend of speed, strength, agility, and pre-cog that he could be combined with anyone with combat skill, weapons, or abilities to become an instant beast. Yet despite three to four exact Spiderman clones it was a combination with Venom that came out on top. Leaving Spiderman and his fans to wonder how.

2) Ironman:
The man in the Iron suit has had two completed tournies using him as the cut off point. Yet he has never be involved in a tourney win as well. Which some would think as odd considering the fact that he has possibly the tops or close to tops of each power allowed in those tourney. Not only that but his prep, and resourcefulness has almost guaranteed him that a scan exists that allows him to thrive in any situation, but sadly all these advantages still haven't translated to tourney victories. Leaving Ironman to drink away his tourney woes.

1) Juggernaut:
The Juggernaut has been drafted and competed in every herald level tourney. Why because he brings a unique characteristic that a bunch of people find appealing especially when mixing with other people. For one at the levels he has been drafted it should basically be said that he possess unlimited durability, stamina, and the ability to survive any environment. Along with his known ability to get to physically strong enough to crush the likes of Thor. Mixed with his connection to a large magical energy source and you have a pick that seemingly gives any possible team, or fusion character a huge advantage. The inability to be defeated through direct means. Yet no one has ever been able to take advantage of these things to produce a tourney championship for poor little ol' Cain Marko.

The Lists: Entry #5

Most Useful Characters in Tourney History

3 - Thor
Why: A herald+ tourney can't and hasn't happened without the son of Odin being drafted. And in each appearance he has performed admirably. One tourney win, and two other finals appearances. His combination of raw power and versatility is matches by few at any level.

2 - Hank Pym (Yellowjacket)
Why: This is probably a surprising entry, but there's a reason. Scoobless' clever tactic of being able to grow an infinite amount with Sasquatch and Moonstone (the only thing keeping Hank from growing as large as he wants is gravity, which is counter-acted with flight) was facilitated by Hank, and is the main reason he not only won but coasted to his most recent tourney win (IX).

1 - Silver Surfer
Why: Two tourney wins, three if you include his "Keeper" incarnation, at least one other finals appearance, and good showings in every tournament he's been in. Kid's a beast. Top tier energy wielder, speed, power, versatility, matter manipulation. There's not much to dislike here.

The Lists: Entry #6

Best Tourney Newcomer

3 - darthgoober (Tourney IX)
Why: This would seem odd because he's the only person on this list not to place in his tourney. But in just two short matches, goober gained the respect and fear of his opponents, and even currently he doesn't have too many matches to his credit but is considered among the elite of KMC's tourney regulars.

2 - DigiMark007 (Tourney III)
Why: I gained the notoriety in this tournament as both intelligent and respectful, and it is one of the main reasons I was nominated for moderator. My debating skills, at the time, were a bit under the elite (despite a 4th-place finish) but it gained me recognition of a different kind that has led to my influence as a mod on the forums.

1 - Blair Wind
Why: In his first tourney he entered one of the toughest fields in tourney history, came out on top. 'nuf said. [/B]

Using this to post our lists. I'm sure Newjak won't mind. Thanks.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
[b]The Lists: Entry #7

This one will be broken into separate categories.

Most Creative Participant: Blair Wind
Why: He routinely sets the high-water mark for inventive strategies, is always a threat to win, and while some may complain that he finds "loopholes," others simply see it as finding what is the most powerful legal strategy in any given tournament.

Most Diligent Participant (Research): Darkcrawler
Why: In Ill's tourney, we were preparing a strategy but there was one very obscure scan that could have ruined the entire plan. I told leo, "If it were anyone else but DC, I wouldn't mind. But the fact that he's our opponent, and that scan exists, scares me." I wouldn't have had the same concern with anyone else on KMC.

Best In-Thread Debater: Scoobless
Why: Debating is highly subjective, so I can't honestly compare the merits of his debating with others. But his results speak for themselves. Four tourney wins, one runner-up, and (unofficially, since I've never kept track) the best win/loss ratio in KMC's history (including only people with multiple tourneys). He also, whether he knows it or not, is a blunt but effective instructor. I had writeup duties for our tournament together, but his suggestions, changes, and additions to our plans and my words were surprisingly enlightening and helped make me the debater I am today.

The Lists: Entry #8

"Best" Tournament Ideas

Criteria: "best" can mean one of two things. One, that it was functional and an intelligent step for tourneys to take. Or two, that it was revolutionary and inventive, taking tourneys in new directions.

3 - Judges
Why: Without judges, apathy and controversy were the norm. With them, subjectivity still exists, but with knowledgeable and thorough judging, each match has a more legitimate decision than our earliest tourneys. No one person is responsible for the advent of judging, but Dizzle/ScarletSpider's tourney was the first to implement it.

2 - Non-comic characters
Why: Some love it, others hate it. Some non-comic characters are surprising and powerful, others are too obscure to make an impact on matches. But it's undeniable that the 2-3 tourneys that have allowed non-comic characters have been made more interesting for it. From Jedi Knights and TV warriors, to book and anime characters, it's always a fun curveball. Again, it wasn't my idea but my first tourney as host (V) was the first to try it.

1 - Point-based drafting (Tourney XI. Evangel)
Why: Why not? No other tournament system could give you Dr. Strange and Flash on one team, and 15 powerless females on another (and Empath). Options including Galactus, Batman, and everything in between, as well as "purchases" like prep time, knowledge of the opponent, and various uber-powers make participants think about their plan like never before. The diversity of strategies, and the bevy of options, make this format the most wide-open of any tournament in KMC's history. No system is perfect, but Evangel's point-based tourney system gets points for originality and fun.

The Lists: Entry #9

Most Powerful Character

This is determined by 1-v-1 strength, and does not take into account tourney limitations or power meshes that the characters were a part of.

Honorable Mention: Despero

3 - The Doctor
Why: Almost anything with a mere thought? 'nuf said. He had some restrictions for the tourney he was drafted in, but sans limitations he's among the best.

2 - Classic Strange
Why: Arguably better feats than Odin when you take them in their entirety. A spell for any situation, and plenty of raw power.

1 - The Keeper
Why: A shared continuity with 616 Surfer means most of regular Surfer's feats are valid. That + Quantum Bands and thousands of years of experience, and you have the most powerful and versatile character ever in a tournament.

The Lists: Entry #10

Most Powerful For Their Tourney

3 - Classic Strange
Tourney: III (Herald Amalgam)
Why: Long pig rode Strange almost exclusively all the way to the finals in a tourney where he was clearly the best single pick.

2 - Blink
Tourney: IV (Modified Street Level Tourney)
Why: In what amounted to a Low Meta tournament, Blink had little business being there. Unfortunately for Khellendros, not many people knew about her at the time and spreading knowledge was problematic. The lack of exposure did him in.

1 - Grail
Tourney: IV (Modified Street Level Tourney)
Why: Same as Blink, only more so. Grail could probably sneak his way into some low herald tourneys nowadays, but no one knew who he was or what he was capable of. Maybe even Khell didn't know his limits, and he did have less showings back then than he currently does, so no one really knew what he would become.

The Lists: Entry #11

Best Amalgam

This will be based off of total power and/or potential, in relation to the tourney they were in. An amalgam need not have won their respective tourney to be considered.

3 - Grailnighter (Grail + Midnighter + Blink)
Khellendros, Tourney IV, Modified Street Amalgam Tourney
Why: See list #10. Grail and Blink were formidable picks on their own, and MN'er adds something to any power mesh.

2 - Bigfoot (Sasquatch + Hank Pym + Moonstone)
Scoobless, Tourney IX, High Meta Amalgam Tourney
Why: Scoobless pulled away from the competition in this one with the infinite growth tactic that he discovered when he combined Hank's growing with the anti-gravity of Moonstone's flight, augmented by Sasquatch's already-formidable strength. Moonstone added versatility as well, making this arguably the most dominant amalgam in tourney history.

1 - Flash Thordon (Wally West + Quasar + Thor)
Scoobless, Tourney III, Herald Amalgam Tourney
Why: There's not much to dislike. Cool name, raw power, versatility in spades between Mjolnir and Q-Bands, and unmatched super-speed. Wild prep strategies involving multiple characters in other tournaments may mean that various teams or tactics could beat him, but in a heads-up match, no single pick or amalgam in tourney history could defeat him.

The Lists: Entry #12

Best Amalgam Name

3 - (tie) Bigfoot/General Kinky
Why: Both of these are mine (though Bigfoot was for an amalgam of Scoob's), and I couldn't decide which one was more annoying to the general public. Thus, you get them both ( 😄 ). Bigfoot was, well, Bigfoot. The name's completely obvious, but also fits like a glove. General Kinky was a creative play on General Zod, Apollo (The Sun King) and Loki, thus General King-ki. Awful, I know. But that's why it's great. Also has some sexual innuendo because of Apollo.

2 - Dr. Shocktopus
Why: Because he's Dr. Shocktopus, damnit. Just hardcore bad-assery, which basically described shockto's originator (long pig).

1 - Flash Thordon
Why: Flash! AAAaaaahhhhhhhhhh! Savior of the universe! Has yet to be topped imo. [/B]

Originally posted by Newjak
Thy villainy doth steal my glory 😛

And my biggest advice when going against a tourney vet. Don't hold back even if you think your guy has the advantage. It can comeback to haunt ya. 😛

Have you come to offer your condoloences, for attacking my kingdom and killing my people ? !

....

That is all.

LET BATTLE BE JOINED AND MEAD BE HAD! dwarf

Sick concept Digi. 👆

Originally posted by Faceman
Have you come to offer your condoloences, for attacking my kingdom and killing my people ? !

In fact thy people will suffer vast sufferings at the hands of mighty newjak.

Juntai wins.

First let us honor the mighty fallen of yesteryear! Perennial bridesmaids Khellendros and long pig shall be the first to enter the ranks of The Honored Fallen. Such stalwart resilience (and in long pig's case, profanity-laced posts) were not to bear the fruits of victory.

Boasting three 2nd-place finishes between them, and other places besides, theirs is the bitterest nectar! Though gone from us, their legacy lives on. Drink up, brothers, and know that the noble fight was fought.

Khell's 2nd place finish: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=331132
LP's first finals loss, at the hands of Scoobless: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=360606&highlight=title%3A%28scoobless%29
Again, by the blade of jinzin: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376424

My favorite is the last one, because LP's "Dr. Shocktopus" was one of the cooler amalgam names ever. And the first one (Khell/Scoob) was pretty much the match that got me interested in tourneys, and also the first I ever voted in (for Khell, actually).

...

Also, my apologies for recent comments directed at TricksterPriest in the current tourney. I meant what I said, but always regret having to act in a negative way in what is otherwise a positive experience toward anyone. Trick may have been deluded in his ideas, but there's still some creativity to be admired in him, even if it didn't pan out.

Nah, I know I was going off the deep end. 😛 I forgive you. 👆 Like I said, I wanted to push the envelope.

and I'm the first person in tourney history to try for abstract level power. 😄

I miss Long Pig. 🙁

Long pig was pimp. It's probably good he left before he got himself banned...I would've felt bad about it, and always thought he was a clever (though "forward"😉 debater.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
and I'm the first person in tourney history to try for abstract level power. 😄

You obviously haven't seen my writeup yet.

😐

...well, not this upcoming one so much (poor Cresh 😛 ) but later ones.

And I tried for abstract power...the same way you did. I just got shot down a lot earlier. But I was going to be exploiting Asgardian stuff with my abstract-ness...Herald level beings inside The Destroyer with the Odin-Force and Rune Knowledge would've put a damper on anyone's tourney.

😉

Alas, no such luck. I'll just have to settle for Skyfather+ power ( 😈 ).

My first tourney loss was to the dreaded Khellendros. He was as sneaking as the most cunning elves. Using his knowledge of the deepest and darkest of characters. He always forged interesting and often powerful amalgams.

Long Pig was the always the best of fellow warriors. He had good ideas and plans. I often liked him as a poster.

Perhaps one day their souls will echo these halls along with their great tales of valor.

Damn. Do I sound as stupid as newjak when I talk Asgardian?

😂

...

I mean, um, thanks for sharing buddy.

But seriously, let's see...you've lost to Khell...what other tourneys have you been in? I was thinking about inducting you into the Hall at some point, but I'm not sure if your losses have been "crushing" enough.

😉

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Damn. Do I sound as stupid as newjak when I talk Asgardian?

😂

...

I mean, um, thanks for sharing buddy.

But seriously, let's see...you've lost to Khell...what other tourneys have you been in?

Let's see I was in that street level tourney with Khell, which someone let him have Blink and Grail 😗

I was in the Herald Partner Tourney with Blair in which we lost to Leo/Khan. Cause we drafted a prep team with only ten seconds of prep that boned us. 😛

Then I was in the Ironman Level single tourney. Once again losing to Leo. Mostly because I held back a lot of my good stuff in fear of revealing too much my next week match against B-Dub that was stupid. 😄

And that is it I think. Man I've had a lot of heartache 🙁

Originally posted by Newjak
Yes you do sound as bad as me 😐

Noted. Maybe we can put the kibash on the Thor-speak. Why does he seem sweet when he does it?

Originally posted by Newjak
Let's see I was in that street level tourney with Khell, which someone let him have Blink and Grail 😗

Whoever allowed those people should be beaten down.

😗

And it was UPPER street. ...which would probably amount to Low Meta these days (our levels were less defined back then), but yeah they were still steals ( 😮 ).

Originally posted by Newjak
I was in the Herald Partner Tourney with Blair in which we lost to Leo/Khan. Cause we drafted a prep team with only ten seconds of prep that boned us. 😛

Then I was in the Ironman Level single tourney. Once again losing to Leo. Mostly because I held back a lot of my good stuff in fear of revealing too much my next week match against B-Dub that was stupid. 😄

And that is it I think. Man I've had a lot of heartache 🙁

Hmm...trying, yes, but nothing terribly soul-crushing. I'll keep you in mind.

😉

And sorry about the prep thing, but I remember wanting people to debate their characters....not debate whatever omniversal prep strategy they had made.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Noted. Maybe we can put the kibash on the Thor-speak. Why does he seem sweet when he does it?

Whoever allowed those people should be beaten down.

😗

And it was UPPER street. ...which would probably amount to Low Meta these days (our levels were less defined back then), but yeah they were still steals ( 😮 ).

Hmm...trying, yes, but nothing terribly soul-crushing. I'll keep you in mind.

😉

And sorry about the prep thing, but I remember wanting people to debate their characters....not debate whatever omniversal prep strategy they had made.

And Blink and Grail seriously Khell with Blink alone should have walked the tourney.

Did I mention that my first tourney loss was at the Playboy mansion to a gayman 🙁

crazy One of you change your avvy!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
crazy One of you change your avvy!

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Noted. Maybe we can put the kibash on the Thor-speak. Why does he seem sweet when he does it?

he doesn't... its just that no-one has the balls to tell him so... ermm

Originally posted by Newjak
Cause he is Thor that's why.

And Blink and Grail seriously Khell with Blink alone should have walked the tourney.

Did I mention that my first tourney loss was at the Playboy mansion to a gayman 🙁

He should have. But no one knew anything about them, and judges traditionally fear the unknown. There's more general knowledge now, so obscure picks are safer than they once were, but I feel like Khell had the best team in at least 2 tourneys that he entered. His finals loss to Scoobless was lopsided due to the people he had, but no one had ever heard of them and it was in the pre-scans era. So going was tough for an indy comic fan.

Pre-scan tourneys compared to now is, in general, a gigantic difference. Scanners changed the way tourneys are debated in a massive way....for the better, no doubt, but the old days were amusing. That street tourney with Blink/Grail was actually probably the transition from barely any scans to a lot.

Originally posted by Raoul
he doesn't... its just that no-one has the balls to tell him so... ermm

Ah.

*childhood dream crushed*

😮