When he deflected the Nightcralwer's attack that ripped apart the Dark Cosmos. Just before he did that, he took the same blast head on.
Can't be hyperbole if it actually DOES rip apart a universe, now can it?
That's great. Let me know when he does any thing like that with just his fists and without a magic hammer at his disposal. Otherwise, it's rather useless in a slugfest.
None of that invalidates (interchange Thor/Namor/Doc/Abom as necessary):
The characters involved don't even matter, nor do their records head-to-head. They are only avatars for specific levels of physical force capable of knocking out Hulk at various levels of rage. Their names are used as they aid in identifying the specific instances referred to.
Hulk doesn't siphon aggression. If that were the case then Doc Samson wouldn't have been able to knock him out with one punch. Abomination wouldn't have been able to KO him either. You're appropriating an ample level of rage that enables Hulk to withstand an early onslaught by two characters that easily rival the strength levels of people that have knocked out the Hulk.
If those are the circumstances of the Namor battle then there is an asterisk next to the KO. But if Hulk is fighting, he has some level of angry, stronger, and more durable to some extent, though in this case, not enough to endure the combined effects of lack of oxygen and Namor swimming into him. Would oxygen deprivation still be a viable tactic for the duo?
You referenced one of the stalemates as an incident involving Hela. Was this Thor v1 #489, because if so neither of them were trying to hurt each other. They were trying to destroy as much of Hela's domain in the "fight." I think it's also Professor Hulk, who's been KO'd by Adamantium Ock and Juggernaut.
Thor on the other hand, has one-shotted Abomination, no hammer. Savage Hulk did that at base strength? He's of comparable strength to enraged Hulk. They stalemated in their first showing. Consistency.
To be fair, he has enough showings against the likes of Kurse, Juggernaut, Mangog, and various incarnations of Hulk (Savage Hulk w/ Rage, Professor has a higher base) to question his durability. Mangog and Kurse are on separate levels. The Juggernaut appearance with the New Warriors, Thor claims that the bouts with nausea are what kept him down. The other encounters with both Juggernaut and Hulk have ended with Thor in fighting shape.
Mortal Thor has shown greater skills than Thor in possession of his powers. The only skill displays I can immediately recall of whole Thor are his fights with Masterson Thor, early Absorbing Man appearance, and fight with Juggernaut in Thor v1 #429.
I referenced in my first post that I'd seen some posters claim that mortal Thor stalemated Cap H2H. Do these issues exist, or are they inferred from the issues that succeeded the World Engine issues?
His arm is still intact after Wolverine cut him. There was a discussion on this I believe in the thread "Could Wolverine Kill Thor?"
There is nothing to suggest that either Hulk or Thing were dead at that moment. Thor merely states that they failed to vanquish him. Thor removes the pendant just a few panels later, restoring his access to the Odinpower. He may have killed them afterward for all we know, certainly not unreasonable for someone in possession of the Odinpower. Are we sure they even died?
It's not as bad as that. Juggernaut mystical connections enable him to endure virtually any physical force. Asking anyone to incapacitate him through purely physical means is ludicrous. He is physically inexhaustable.
Hulk on the other hand, is said to have "infinite potential," but can be KO'd with by means of sufficient impact. Whether the supplied force is sufficient to overcome his durability at a given time as it relates to his anger is the crucial point. Savage Hulk's dependency on his rage for strength and durability almost precludes any possibility of high or low showings because his strength and durability fluctuate drastically with in correlation to his anger. Not entirely dissimilar to Gladiator and his confidence. When Hulk is OHKO'd by Doc Samson, he's not angry enough. When Hulk is angry enough, he KO'd Doc. In some cases, for whatever reason, he'll just stop fighting and calm down.
There isn't an accurate gauge for Hulk's anger though. There is calm, rageless Hulk, and then there is Hulk with some amount of rage, subject to incremental magnification and diminution. At some arbitrary increment, Hulk is impervious to a physical attack of a given force. Below that increment, he will be KO'd by the same force.
Really, this is one of two threads:
-Savage Hulk at a rage level where he is KO'd by Thor & BRB
-Savage Hulk at a rage level where he KOs Thor & BRB
None of your excuses invalidate the fact that characters far weaker than the characters included in this fight, have one more than one occasion physically incapacitated Hulk.
Hulk's strength, as published and stated by Marvel numerous times, starts off at around class 100. Meaning while at base strength, Hulk's strength is only sufficient enough for him to lift or press objects less than, equal, or slightly above 100 tons. Thor and BRB are in the multiple quintillion's of tons, and have shown on some occasions feats surpassing that. Thor and BRB's base strength feats, also far out strip the feats accomplished by Hulk.
The fight doesn't have to last 30 seconds before Hulk's corpse is tossed to the side. Thor has also shown that he can not only stalemate Hulk in strength after a hour, but also kill him after battling for hours. There is nothing that is keeping two Thor's lv characters from doing the same.
Thor battles, travels, and navigates in space how?
It's not. Thor was sword fighting Thalif at high speeds.
Thor's speed >>>>>>> Hulk's speed
Beta Ray's speed >>>>>>> Hulk's speed
He's faster than them both, whether or not you accept that is not my problem. Just look at some of Thor's fights with Gladiator, Surfer, Adam Warlock, etc.
I didn't think ABC logic was acceptable through forum rules.
For some odd reason you would have us to believe skill and experience don't matter, however the opposite has been displayed throughout marvel history. That logic is completely ridicules.
Thor's fighting to kill, and Thor's skill and experience >>>>>> Things. Thing has battled Hulk before through sheer skill, proving again that skill does matter.
Even people comic fans know who the Hulk is, can the same be said for Marvel Thor? No. Hulk's fan base far exceeds Thor fan base.
Or it could simply mean Thor jobbs to Hulk. Something not only I, but many posters here believe.
I've seen the scan, and that blast was far less than a universe destroying blast.
They’re not excuses. You can’t just say someone knocked out some one else without saying the circumstances. Fact is, there were stipulations you have to keep in mind in each of those fights and you can’t ignore them.
Hell, if you want to look at it like that, Thor was nearly taken out by Mongoose. He was worn down by Spider-Man and had to resort to using his hammer’s powers. He was nearly taken out by a shotgun to the head.
And Hulk near his base has stalemated Thor countless times. He’s also done this with Hercules (Thor’s equal in strength), Drax (who has also stalemated Thor before), Red Norvell (another version of Thor who IIRC even fought evenly with Thor), and Juggernaut, who has manhandled Thor before.
Do some research. 40+ years of continuity says Hulk can hang with Thor just fine at first and he’s just going to get tougher as the fight goes on until he overwhelms the duo.
Yes, the fact that Hulk has shown constantly that Thor can’t put him down with fists and the fact that he’ll just become more formidable as the fight goes on.
By either warping or traveling ina straight line.
Don’t tell me you actually believe he’s dodging planets in space.
Fighting speed? Only slightly, if at all. Heck, most of the instance you listed earlier were traveling speeds, not combat speed.
No, he isn’t. He couldn’t tag Spider-Man on the only two occasions he tried.
And Gladiator and Surfer don’t use their speed against him any more than they used their speed against Hulk. When Gladiator did actually use his speed, Thor couldn’t stop him from knocking his hammer out of his hand.
Thing’s skill allows him to hang in a fight, not stalemate at all.
And Hercules’s skill > Thor’s skill, and it didn’t help him at all.
So what? Thor’s still very popular in his own right. According to your logic, that means Gladiator only lost to him because he’s more popular (even though he took him out with a cheap shot). According to your logic, that means Thor only took out the Infinity Watch because he’s popular. According to your logic, Thor only cracked Exitar’s head and beat Galactus because- let’s face it- he’s popular.
Overall, your logic sucks.
Your whole logic that Thor jobs when he doesn’t dominate Hulk physically at first is based on the fact that you don’t think Hulk has any feats to prove he’s near Thor’s strength at base level (except for, y’know stalemating Thor), so let me ask you this…
Would you say Thor is jobbing when Classic Juggernaut or even 8th Day Juggernaut overpower him, even though neither one has nearly as impressive strength feats as Thor?
Would you say Thor should have been able to break out of 8th Day Juggenraut’s bear hug, because his strength feats are far more impressive?
I would very much appreciate an answer here.
It destroyed a universe, ergo, it was a universe-destroying blast. And Hulk took it head on.
Yes, it does. For example, you can’t say Person A beat Person B without leaving out that Person A only won with a cheap shot. Or that Person A won in an environment that suited him fine but was horrible for Person B. Or that Person A, after winning one fight about 30 years ago, lost the next 10 or so fights against Person B.
And the fact remains for all their fights, Thor couldn’t out Hulk down with resorting to his other powers.
He thought Samson was an illusion, which is why he was completely unaware of a fight. Abomination beat him 40 years ago and hasn’t won a fight since. Hulk’s been written as stronger since those days. Really, it’s just stupid to ignore all the times he’s faced Thor-level opponents and held his own and just focus who’s beaten him. If you want to do that, Thor has problems with objects as small as bullets, like Wonder Woman. Imagine if Hulk poked him with his finger.
He’s just as aggressive as Bill in a fight, so if ill punches him he’ll punch back.
Now? Most likely not, seeing as how Hulk’s adapted to the vacuum of space.
And he doesn’t seem to be as weak against lack of oxygen nowadays.
Yeah, I just looked back on it, Thor was holding back. Regardless, he was still out for blood when he fought Hulk near the bomb site.
I believe the Doc Ock incident wasFixit and the Juggernaut incident was when Hulk had no idea who he was fighting. He though the “construction worker” he was fighting was just stronger than he thought and he held back. No biggie.
Right, consistency, so saying Thor can simply take out Hulk early on when he’s NEVER been able to before is ludicrous.
And Hulk also has high showings against high-level people.
And the fact is, his overall skill is that of a brawler, which doesn’t help against Hulk.
Your arguing that two the two characters of in this fight can physically incapacitate the Hulk. I'm arguing otherwise and bringing up instances in his history when he was.
Thor wasn't ko'd or defeated in the two fights you mentioned, however the same can't be said for Hulk.
Again you fail to see the flaw in using abc logic. Comparing Hulk's base strength to Thor's, it's blatantly obvious that Thor far outstrips him.
Hulk's physically been bested by Spider-Man. Do you now consider Spider-Man the physical superior to Colossus, Thing, and Strong Man?
The last 5 years of continuity says differently.
The fist of Spider Man also says that although Hulk may get mad and become stronger, with sufficient enough physical force he can still be physically incapacitated.
Thor has already shown he can physically incapacitate Hulk. You would like for us to ignore this, however excuses and side maps techniques you've been using in this thread won't invalidate what has recently been shown.
No, however I have seen him dodging, and countering attacks in space.
You may not want accept this, and you may want to ignore the feats given to you but Thor and BRB's fighting speed are easily superior to Hulk's. I've never seen hulk have a high speed fight with a speedster, nor have I seen Hulk show anything aside from normal human fighting speeds.
Actually they do. Posters around the forum like to claim this, but it's false. Surfer definitely implements his speed in their fights, go check up on some and see. For example in Blood and Thunder where it was stated by Surfer that he would hold back no longer, and then was quickly countered and ko'd. Another instance was their first match up, when they fought in Asgard and Thor was able to constantly counter Surfer.
Also, why does speed needed to be specifically stated or shown if two characters are fighting all out and one is known for using speed? why would the character hold his speed back?
And Hulk was ko'd Spider Man. Seeing as how you like posting low showings to try and boost your case, this could go all day.
If things skill allow him to "hang" with Hulk, then there should be no problem admitting that two characters who have vastly superior skill, strength, durability, stamina, and speed could do worse to Hulk.
Is Thor Hercules? no. Stop using abc logic. Thor before has shown us that skill will outclass physical strength before, even doing so against Hulk.
Ok Accel. Since you simply can't understand that characters who are vital to the company won't be killed in battles I'll leave it alone. Hulk besting Thor is as stupid as Spider man besting Fire Lord, and many posters here know it.
My logic sucks, yet you simply won't refrain from using abc logic to try and boost your case.
I've said for a long time that Thor jobb to earth based characters. That includes Cain, Hulk, Magneto, etc.
Thats not what was shown in the scan. The blast in your scan didn't even appear it could destroy a city.
Hulks killed in the first 5 mins of this fight. The duo 10/10
__________________ In short, I’d say it’s pretty safe to say that no one could have stopped the Hulk at the end of "World War Hulk" if the Hulk hadn't wanted to be stopped. Greg Pak. WWH > Sentry all out > Galactus
__________________ In short, I’d say it’s pretty safe to say that no one could have stopped the Hulk at the end of "World War Hulk" if the Hulk hadn't wanted to be stopped. Greg Pak. WWH > Sentry all out > Galactus
If you hate ABC logic so much, why use it so compare Spider-Man, Namor, Samson, etc to Thor?
‘Cause that’s EXACTLY what ABC logic is.
Obviously not, since Hulk’s stalemated him time and time again. Proof’s in the comics.
Thor’s been bested by Mongoose and was dropped by Mantis.
You mean when Thor received 1 or 2 power-ups? Yeah, that negates 40+ years of continuity.
This isn’t even worth responding to.
Good for him. A story where a Thor who is supposed to kill every one… kills every one.
Funny you ignore 40 years of continuity and only focus on that one moment.
Whoopdy friggin do. Nothing to indicate his fighting speed >>Hulk’s fighting speed.
Thor’s never had a high speed fight either. All his greatest speed feats are traveling feats with his hammer.
Look at his fights. He has no real combat speed feats that say he can avoid Hulk's attacks or so much as speedblitz him.
Yeah, because all a blood-lusted Surfer can do is shoot energy blasts.
Let me ask you since, you a believe an opponent not holding back automatically means he’s going at full speeds-
Since Thor wasn;t holding back against the young Maestro version of Hulk (even experience a little Warrior Madness mode) would you say he was moving as fast as possible against hulk?
Careful how you answer, since if you say no, then that means you can’t claim Surfer was using any real degree of super-speed. If you say yes, then apparently Hulk can keep up with Thor.
So which is it?
Because Thor isn’t a fast fighter. This has been shown several times. He was helpless against Spider-Man very time they’ve met. He was downright laid out against Mongoose. He was slow compared to Daredevil. He couldn’t this so called “speed” against Hercules. He couldn’t dodge Juggernaut’s attacks, Namor’s attacks, Wonder Man’s attacks, etc, etc.
These people kept up with Thor. Hulk will too.
Do you have Alzheimer’s or something? You started this.
Thhey’d just hang with him as well, until he becomes too strong for them handle.
No, Hercules isn’t Thor. He’s a better fighter than Thor. He bested Thor in H2H but he couldn’t best Hulk.
Thor only jobs when he doesn’t use his versatility. However, almost any one here will agree that a slugfest between the two is portrayed accurately in the comics.
My logic makes sense. You bring up Spider-Man KOing Hulk with a truck and somehow use that as evidence that Thor wins. You claim Thor jobs when he doesn’t dominate Hulk physically without using reasoning to back it up.
My logic shows that someone as strong as Thor even more skilled than him fails to put Hulk down- as has Thor himself as well- then naturally Thor won’t either.
So Classic Juggernaut isn’t as strong as Classic Thor? Is 8th Day Juggernaut?
I know these are off topic, but I would really appreciate an answer to this.
What you think it looks like has no relevance. What actually happened does.
The blast destroyed a universe, meaning it was a universe-destroying blast. And Hulk took it head on. I’m still waiting for something that Thor’s done that compares to that.
Your claiming Hulk can't be physically incapacitated by Thor and BRB because his strength and durability will grow too quickly for the task to be completed, my points were brought up to prove other wise.
I'm not saying that because Hulk was defeated by Abomination or Spider Man that he automatically loses to Thor and BRB. I'm saying that he has been physically incapacitated before, showing that while angry he has been ko'd by a sufficient force. There is no plausible reason why with enough force Thor and BRB can't accomplish the same feat.
Your saying Hercules has skills and they never work on Hulk. This has nothing to do with the fact that time and time again, skill has shown to be a valuable asset in battle. There is no denying that skill and strength will be superior to simply strength.
So take a look at the comic where Hulk lay on his back dead. While your at that take a look at the comics where Thor battles Ego, Stranger, Galactus, Celestials, Zeus, Infinity Watch, Surfer, Mangog, etc, and tell me again why you believe Thor should have trouble with Hulk.
Still Thor wasn't ko'd, Hulk however time and again has shown differently.
You know as well as I do that not only did Thor not have possession of the Odin Power, but he also lost use of Mjolnir. Although you like to side step this battle, it shows that Thor was on that day Hulk's physical superior. Hulk has never killed Thor, when it was ultimately time to show who the superior of the two was, Thor prevailed.
Like stated before. Thor has fought as super speeds, characters with super speed were created out of his DNA, he has been described as being as quick as lightning, etc. Again you may not want to accept it, but BRB and Thor are much faster than Hulk.
Your trying to say Thor's not fast by bringing low feats into account. Look at his greatest feats which show him running and becoming invisible, and fighting Thalif at super speeds. Also look up the feats that have him blocking bullets, and having characters with super speed created with his DNA.
Yes and Hulk is included with that everyone. The same can not be said about Hulk in reference to his battles with Thor.
Ok, You can't accept Thor's faster than Hulk. Although even when you look at official handbooks Thor is listed with god like reflexes.
I've listed a number of Thor's speed feats, however you chose to ignore them.
Yes I know Accel, I've already stated Thor isn't that powerful while written on earth. He's not as fast, not as strong, not as skilled, not as smart, not as powerful. Now go take a look at his higher feats, where he's fighting characters worth mentioning.
He wasn't helpless against Surfer, Gladiator, Hyperion, etc.
You stated that Hulk couldn't be ko'd. I proved otherwise by bringing up points in Hulk's history where he was ko'd by characters weaker than the ones featured in this battle. Your bringing up Mongoose to try and prove Thor's slow when he has fought and faired well against much faster characters, these are two different situations.
I don't quite understand your logic.
A character with low tier strength, and a tad bit of strength can hang with Hulk. You then say characters with Top tier strength, durability, stamina, moderate speed will also just hang with him. I don't get that?
So what about their fights outside of Hulk. Are we supposed to disregard their battles were skill was vital, so we can boost Hulk? Again, characters job to Hulk.
Here's how I see it. Classic Juggernaut, van potentially become strongest than Thor. However due to his stupidity Cain will never know how to properly implement his unlimited strength. However strength alone will not get you a win over classic Thor.
8th day Juggernaut is Classic Juggernaut.
The scan doesn't show a universe. You can post it again, but it's really not impressive.
This is such a nice way to ask for information you lack.
Instead of being condescending to other users, try actually doing some research because no one is going to want to give you anything with that kind of attitude. You're not a baby and it's no one's duty to spoon-feed you the information just because you don't know.
Instead of making it personal, you should ask nicely next time.
__________________
Forever Young...
Last edited by Evangel94 on Jan 20th, 2007 at 05:18 AM
It's become painfully obvious you're just going to ignore what you don't like and only accept what you do like. You bring up Thor's traveling speed feats and try to pass them up as combat feats. You use the fact that Thor is super-fast at fighting due to the fact he's fought opponents who can move super-fast but didn't use their speed against him, even though Hulk's done the same. You say Thor's fastre because he's fought superfast opponents, even though alternatively that same logic can be used to say that Hulk is as fast as Thor becasue he's kept up with Thor in combat. You say Thor's skill will help him, even though A.) he's a brawler and B.) skill hasn't helped others in the past, including Hercules (Thor's superior). You bring up that Thor has beaten Galactus, Ego, etc, while ignoring the fact that he hasn't beaten any of them without the hammer. You say Thor should easily dominate Hulk in a physical fight, even though he’s never been able to do so before. You claim Hulk only holds his own against Thor because he's more popular, despite the fact that they've been stalemating since the very beginning of their comic careers. You only accept the last fight between the two and choose to ignore how fights between the two have gone for decades. You deny that the blast that Hulk endured and deflected was universe-destroying, even though it was shown AND stated ON PANEL that it was ripping apart the Dark Cosmos (a separate universe). You keep bringing up Abomination taking Hulk out, even though it happened over 40 years ago and doesn’t mean a thing now, and you only pay attention to Spider-Man knocking Hulk out with a truck and ignore the half-dozen times Spidey didn’t even phase Hulk. And last, but not least, you can’t think of a better argument to their past encounters other stating that Thor “jobs” to Hulk in H2H without any reasoning to back it up, when alternatively, I could just as easily say Hulk and Thing jobbed massively to Thor…
Clearly, Thor has no speed, durability or strength advantage over Hulk, his own skills mean ziltch, and whether you like it or not, he can’t beat him in H2H unless it’s in a story where the plot requires that he absolutely has to kill every one.
You bore me. I’m done wasting my time now.
Any way, I'm going to say the duo can win, but only if they manage to take him out quick, and I mean quick. Overall I see Hulk overwhelming them for the majority.
Last edited by Accel on Jan 20th, 2007 at 05:22 AM
Why do you continually ignore the feats that have been given to you? I have stated that Thor sword fought Thalif in a high speed battle, yet not once in any of your post have you addressed it. You simply passed it off as a traveling speed feat, you did the same when I brought up Zefra the super speed character created from Thor's DNA.
You refuse to accept that skill does indeed matter. Skill in every battle not just this one matters.
Your now saying skill doesn't matter yet in your earlier post you claimed it's skill that allows Thing to "hang" with Hulk. So what is it, does skill matter or not?
You keep throwing around Hercules is Thor's superior skill as if there's a massive difference. Yes Hercules is slightly Thor's superior, however it takes nothing away from Thor's excellent skill.
Thor has dominated Hulk in a physical battle, he killed him. Whether or not you can accept that is not my problem.
And thats my problem. Even with Mjolnir he happens to stalemate Hulk, although he has bested characters such as Galactus, Ego, etc. This to me is PIS, one who can nearly kill Galactus shouldn't have problems with Hulk.
Post the scan again, because that blast didn't destroy anything, and it certainly wasn't a universe destroying blast.
Thor's and BRB's speed and durability feats trump Hulks, by far. However I will give Hulk the strength advantage if the fights draws out.
If that were the case, what about the instances in which he's taken point blank blast from Galactus, Celestials, Ego, Zeus, Stranger, Thanos, shots from Mangog, Kurse, stood in the core of the sun, taken blast that were the equivalent to that of an exploding sun, etc. All instances in which his body took the full force of the attacks.
I do however know what your talking about, which is the shields Thor creates. These shields have withstood blast that would have destroyed a 5th of the universe.
Hulk's highest durability feats aren't touching Thor's and BRB's.
KMC Community Forums
Jan 19th, 2007 03:13 PM
In short, I’d say it’s pretty safe to say that no one could have stopped the Hulk at the end of "World War Hulk" if the Hulk hadn't wanted to be stopped. Greg Pak. WWH > Sentry all out > Galactus
