It's more of a win than Wolverine's "win." And I think that's so obvious I don't care to argue the point.
Creed was lucky Matt decided to give him freebie shots to his back several times.
And other times he hasn't. Sometimes, Wolverine's heart being phucked up puts him down, other times it doesn't. Sometimes being shot up to hell puts him down, and other times it doesn't. Sometimes Wolverine gets knocked out by plain fisticuffs, sometimes he doesn't. I have no problem believing that it's a maybe yes/maybe no proposition. For whatever reason, despite all the evidence to the contrary, you do. And frankly, I don't see the point in arguing further when you readily pretend that 100s of on-panel showings didn't happen because you didn't like it.
I agree. It's like that on every site where you have to post and debate. Lots of people are bias and don't want to believe or see the truth for what it is. Even if it is right there in front of them.
Read the forum rules, it's not a great mystery what is and what is not considered valid on the forums. You can cherry pick the rare examples of Wolverine jobbing, and various PIS feats and try to pretend they somehow matter, but they don't. You are the equivalent of someone saying "Thor can't fight Hulk, the Vietnam army beat Thor with an artillery shell!!! Derp dee derp!" Come on buddy, you are embarrassing yourself.
Read the rules, and make an effort to fallow them just like everyone else.
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Daredevil beating Wolverine twice =/= Thor being defeated by an artillery shell. Stop acting like they compare to each other. Wolverine losing to street-levelers happens.
Daredevil hasn't beaten Wolverine once. He punched him the throat once in an Ennis book, and then narrative flashed forward a few minutes. In EotS he knocked a brain washed Wolverine onto a sword and briefly broke the Hand's mind control. I know you have trouble recognizing the difference between a mind controlled character no longer having a reason to continue a fight, and a legitimate victory, but there is a difference. And even if we ignore the context - as you love to do - and pretend those actually are wins for Daredevil, those fights don't exist with in a bubble. They exist along side alongside all over Wolverine's other fights, and are subject to an evaluation based on that criteria, and the reality is - even pretending they are victories - they are not consistent with how he is portrayed in the VAST majority of his appearances.
Do you know what the word irony means? It's not applicable here.
Read the rules. They aren't complicated.
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Wolverine was incapacitated both times by Daredevil. Of course, I understand you wanting to ignore both defeats and relying on Wolverine briefly grabbing Daredevil into a full-nelson while he is distracted with the revelation that the Typhoid Mary situation is not what it seems. Totally not a double-standard! Fact is, Wolverine's been beaten by street-levelers before. He's been matched by street-levelers a lot. And Wolverine has had to work for his victories against street-levelers even more than that. So DD beating him is consistent and in line with Wolverine's appearances.
Perhaps I should have characterized your statement as "retarded" instead of "ironic."
Pretending that Wolverine is as far above a top-tier street-leveler as high heralds are is a joke. Invoking SPvsFL PIS in situations where Wolverine is facing an opponent that has always been portrayed as a fair match for Wolverine (or beaten him) is retarded. Stop hiding behind your liberal and misplaced applications of a forum rule and just read the comics as they are. Nothing less complicated than that.
Wolverine wasn't shown to be incapacitated in either one of those examples. He was knocked down for a single panel but still conscious in the Ennis example, and in the other he was knocked over and his mind control was broken. Awesome?
If all Wolverine had ever done was fight Daredevil twice and lose, then you would have a point, but that isn't case. Wolverine vs Daredevil needs to be considered with in the context of Wolverine's complete history. The rules are quiet specific about this. What you are doing is isolating a section of Wolverine's showings against a single character, and judging solely on the merit of how those examples compare to one another and completely disregarding the rest of his history. What if I pretended the only feats of Flash's that mattered were his fights with Captain Boomerang? Or Superman's fights with Toy Man? Read the rules. They aren't vague nor are they arbitrary. You ARE citing PIS SMVSFL examples, plain and simple.
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And DD wasn't even knocked down for a single panel in the Wolverine fight you keep touting around. Stop trying to criticize DD's wins; you're only further revealing how faulty your reliance is on Wolverine's win... which is totally not what I am trying to do. Nope, not at all... Spider-Man is a street-leveler and Firelord is a high herald. Wolverine is a street-leveler and Daredevil is a street-leveler. Slight difference, slick.
All I'm doing is going by how Wolverine is consistently portrayed as matching up against other top street-levelers, which is a healthy split between losing/matching/winning. And I go by how top street-levelers like DD are portrayed as matching up against foes like Wolverine, which is also, a healthy split between losing/matching/winning.
If I were arguing that Daredevil curbstomps Wolverine 10/10 by one-shotting him easily such that Wolverine cannot even win with bloodlust and dozens of ninjas helping him, via retarded extrapolation of just two isolated instances... your accusations might be justified. Because that's not how Wolverine vs. top street-levelers is consistently portrayed as at all. However, the only one behaving in such a one-sided, ludicrous manner here is you. Because you think Wolverine would easily curbstomp top street-levelers 10/10 even when he's handicapped. And that's not how Wolverine vs. top street-levelers is consistently portrayed as.
Thus, the irony of the situation. Stop projecting your own behavior onto me.
Daredevil ambushed Wolverine, struggled with him in melee, and was caught in full nelson. He only got out because Wolverine let him out. Alternatively Wolverine was knocked down for a single panel in a dark comedy / parody comic written by a writer who hates super heroes, and was specifically trying to make them look stupid.
Titles like "street" and "herald" are irrelevant to the consideration of PIS and SMvsFL. SMvsFL isn't an absurd occurance because Firelord is a herald, it's because of the nature of the feats that classify him as a herald. Wolverine is a street who routinely eats punches from the Hulk, ergo Daredevil downing Wolverine - if it ever happens - will be PIS.
Unfortunately Wolverine has done more then just fight street level characters, and those examples still need to be analyzed relative to his complete character history. Wolverine encounters with street level heroes don't exist in a bubble, they are one small part of the history of a character who has fought Hulk more then he as fought Captain America, Daredevil and Punisher combined.
What you are doing is isolating specific instances of PIS and trying to insulate them from Wolverine's canon in order to formulate a flimsy base for your argument. Wolverine's fights with street levels are one part of a whole, they aren't judged individually, and you don't have the luxury of ignoring how Wolverine's fights with top tier class 100s play out when considering the validity of a fight with Daredevil. Wolverine can take a punch form the Hulk. Wolverine can take dozens form the Hulk. Daredevil couldn't ko Wolverine if he had a month to do it and Wolverine wasn't going to muster a resistance.
Read the forum rules.
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Psylocke and Cable should also be able to defeat Logan... But I understand where you're coming from Srank... It's so hard to come up with an opponent for Wolverine, who isn't too overly powerful for him or can't do enough to tax his healing factor.
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I don't consider either of Psylocke or Cable street, at least not the incarnations of those characters that can beat Wolverine, they have high level tk and psychokenetic abilities.
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Like I said, Wolverine talking down Daredevil and not even knocking him out is less of a win than Daredevil dropping Wolverine. Twice. And other than Gray Hulk and WWH (Logan's best showing ever), Wolverine typically gets two-shotted or one-shotted by Hulk. Yeah. I have all his fights. Scanned. Ready to go. Don't even give me a reason to bust another myth. Daredevil has done more than just fight street level characters. So has Captain America. So has Spider-Man. And they all still have trouble with each other. You might as well endorse using their greatest fighting feats, ala Cap taking on Cosmic Cube Red Skull, Doom w/ Beyonder's Power, Molecule Man, Korvac, "zomg, Cap routinely challenges/takes down reality warpers, what chance does DD have, roflcopter!!!!111"
Of course, therein lies another nugget of irony, because you wave those Hulk fights around as if they're the end-all-be-all in in Wolverine fight hypotheticals (they're not). Who's trying to keep who in a bubble now? "[T]hey aren't to be judged individually." No sh1t sherlock. Of course, you want to pretend Wolverine's best showing against a Hulk beatdown controls his ko'ability. It doesn't.
Also, LOL @ "Wolverine can take dozens form the Hulk." Do yourself a favor before I embarrass you with scans, take those rose-colored glasses off concerning Wolverine's fights with Hulk. Other than Gray Hulk, their 1-on-1 fights have been horribly lopsided in terms of how many punches he takes. Wolverine's been knocked out by far less than Hulk. Deal with it. And if you honestly weren't aware of that:
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Aug 17th, 2011 03:23 PM
