Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
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Fair enough, but once vader strikes he is going to have to block right? And once he blocks he is going to feel the sheer power of vaders form am i correct? What if i told you that according to RODV vaders custamised lightsaber form is unpredictable? Where on the other hand vader has fought dooku twice and knows his style? While dooku has never seen vaders lightsaber form before.
Just to let you know vaders djem so is built up with alot of other lightsaber forms.
Dooku isnt going to block Vaders attacks head on. Makashi parries oncoming attacks, thus greatly reducing the kinetic energy absorbed. So once Dooku parries Vaders strike, he should be able to hit Vader before he can mount an effetive defence. I dont doubt that Vaders strong blows will rattle Dooku, but not to the point of which you are trying to imply - and certainly not like he did in ROTS.
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
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You are assuming that dooku will parry his attacks rather than block which i would find unlikely because vaders strikes are unpredictable, And dooku has never seen this style of fightning before. And need i not point out that dooku gives out weaker blows of lightsaber strikes compared to djem so? which his armour can easily block as TESB proved
This quote proves how effective djem so is against makashi
Djem So is best represented by Anakin Skywalker in his second battle with Count Dooku toward the end of the Clone Wars. During the duel, Count Dooku is surprised and shocked when he realizes that Anakin is now a Djem So practitioner. During the battle Anakin attacks Dooku, using his entire body including his arms, shoulders, legs and forward momentum to overwhelm Dooku with brute strength. In fact, when he blocks a blow from Skywalker the sheer kinetic power in Skywalker's blow shoved Dooku back, making him stumble so that he would not fall completely to the ground
And isnt vaders mastery of djem so above anakin combined with other forms? i think so
Last edited by BoratBorat on Dec 16th, 2006 at 09:31 AM
His armour may be able to block one or two strikes. But I think you underestimate the strength of Makashi. Sure, it is one of the weakest forms in terms of kinetic energy, but Dooku was still able to chop of Anakins arm with ease in AOTC. I didnt see Yoda pressing the physical advantage in the saber lock in AOTC and the combined strength of Anakin and Kenobi couldnt over come Makashi in ROTS (I refer to the saber lock where Dooku blocks them both with one hand). Dooku's speed is going to grant him enough hits on Vader to pierce his armour, whether it be on the first hit or 5th hit.
EDIT: That quote refers to Anakin in ROTS. In that battle Skywalker had a great deal of speed to back himslef up, therefore was able to press his advantage. He wont have that luxury anymore seeing his suit greatly hinders mobility.
And maybe, just maybe, you're a retard who doesn't quite know how commas work, LOL!
He labels Vader a 'crippled...' in direct respect to speed; just as he says that he wanted the PT fightscenes to be more energized because we've never seen real jedi before. You're a moron if you don't get this, there's only one way to interpret that, Vader's a slow piece of crap, and his fanboys are getting lamer and lamer.
He says it in direct respect to speed, so sorry, but you fail.
1. Don't even try and dictate what Lucas was referring to when he said that. He quite simply says that he wants the duels to be more 'energized' because we've never seen real jedi at work. Keyword = 'NEVER'! Not in ANH, and not in ESB or RotJ. Deal with it.
2. The ESB and RotJ duels were not fast, don't be ridiculous.
He tried in ANH, don't be ridiculous.
Provide a reason why he wouldn't have tried his hardest.
You do realise that you're not addressing my actual point Mr Strawman. You see, the problem here is that you believe that Vader must have been holding back in ANH because he displays more skill in ESB and RotJ. What you don't seem to understand is that it is easier to display more skill against a lesser opponent than it is against a stronger one.
To compare wrestling to swordfighting is ridiculous, it's a bad analogy, and by rules of debate, I don't even need to reply to this. But I'm a nice guy, so I will. Wrestling is much more physical, it's direct contact, mostly consisting of grapples. There's really not much more to wrestling than simply overpowering your opponent, it's not like there is a solid offence and defence to the sport. Swordfighting is much different
Now the fact that Vader was refraining from killing his son wouldn't make him fight or move any slower, that's ridiculous, he would fight as skilled as he can, just not go in for the kill. It's really not that hard to grasp, quit being foolish.
Whatever, the fact is, they were wookies, they weren't force sensitives.
I didn't miss any point, I'm just seeing the feat for what it is. Now if that's truly what you believe, you have to prove that speed is required to pull something like that off.
All that sis aid is h's faster and more agile than he was before, that does not equate to fast and agile, reading comprehension much?
Sure thing! You do realise that the PotJ video isn't the only source for Lucas claiming that Vader is slow, just look at pretty much every interview he's done, it's a well known fact among fans that GL considers Vader slow, just ask Ushgurak.
This argument is logically incorrect, I'll explain why.
You're claiming that this bit of evidence speaks highly for Vader because he defeated Maul. Then, when asked to prove that this Maul was comparable in power to how he was in TPM, your proof is because he did so well against Vader.
^ Seeing the faulty logic?
The premise for your argument is dependant on the argument being solely correct without the premise. In short, your argument has no meaning.
Are the italics really necessary? I could understand if you were Advent, or Lightsnake, or Gideon, but you? Please, stick to the Revan arguments, the whole concept of swordfighting seems to be too much for you.
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
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The reason why dooku is able to cut of anakins arm is because lightsabers cut through anything with ease,
And why djem so was not effective during the 2 on 1 fight? simply because anakin needed space to go all out without hitting obi wan in the process.
And you are saying vader is slow which he isnt? When did we see vader actually fightning a real jedi in the movies? None at all, Its the EU where he demonstrated his incredible skills with the lightsaber, and it doesnt contradict G-canon thus it is declared C-canon, Vader has been proven fast. Again if he sucks that bad, how was he able to wtf pwn 20 wookies and be able to parry the attacks of 3 jedi swordsman?
Again, you are wrong. And again, you use an Ad Hominem attack on me. And the Ad Hominem doesn't even make sense. My username is General Kenobi, shouldn't it be then that I should say ANH Obi-Wan > Vader by fanboyism. No, you discredit yourself again.
Number one, tell me how I suck at interpreting swordfighting? Two, it's not my opinion, it's fact. And yes, I am basing part of my argument by watching the movies.
Well since you're clearly unable to understand the technicalities of the duel, I felt it was my duty to explain some basic concepts of fighting through your heavily thick skull.
Maybe so, but if your opponent is not trying and not putting the effort to show more skill, then it clearly shows that the person is going easy on you. Vader wasn't even going all out on Luke. When Luke hit him in the arm, it took Vader seconds to finish off Skywalker.
Very funny man, naked wrestling? LOL! AC has argued about the wrestling part very well, so I'll leave at that.
And your analogy is what people consider holding back. Vader was obviously fighting slower, blocking slower, making himself look lesser than he was. That's holding back. If Vader did went for the kill and all out, then he would finished off Luke in a quarter of a time he took against him in ESB.
A logical fallacy does not make a lesser debater, but it ruins the credibility of the argument you are trying to make. By pointing out a logical fallacy in your opponent's debate, they are unable to continue with their line of argument, because the entire thing is a fallacy. And please, even now you are using Ad Hominem. Ever heard of a word called "learning" Planet? Maybe it's something you should add to your limited dictionary inside the feeble mind of yours. I learned fallacies from one of my classes. And about the "illogical fallacies", I have only mentioned that word in one thread for a couple of posts. I never even pointed out fallacies. But now that I do, I can easily ruin my opponent's arguments. Quite helpful!
I know what happened in that fight. The fact was Vader had very limited experience in that suit. Emphasis on "very limited experience". By TESB, Vader has twenty years of Jedi hunting and mastery within the suit. Think about it? He was able to take on 8 Jedi with a monthes experience Think about how powerful he is unleased with 20 years of experience.
Umm, yes it did, Wookiepedia and Lucas both said that "As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly eight-tenths of the strength of the Emperor". His potential to be twice as powerful as Sidious was gone, but he still became 80% of his master.
Really, but that's TPM Maul with years of experience. That was Purge Vader with a month of experienece. See the difference?
1. Yes it has, but certain individuals cannot accept this.
2. Well then, don't tempt me to argue back.
3. Yes I did for your information. I remember even in one thread where you said "Ani got lucky" and then I gave a brief summary paragraph proving why you are wrong. I clearly remember after posting that paragraph, that line of debate wasn't responded in your next post. LOL!
Yep he was 5% of Sidious even though he killed dozens of Jedi Knights, all who are much stronger than that (including if I remember, Clone Maul, 8 Jedi on Kessel, Dark Woman, Roan Shryne, etc).
"Sigh" A leopard can never change its spots.
Ahh, anti-fanboyism at its finest.
Just a random fact, it's Ushgarak, not Ushgurak.
__________________
BlackZero30x created this a-'Maize'-ing signature! =)
I'm getting grammar lessons from a guy who uses "and" at the beginning of a sentence and thinks adding LOL! makes him right. If you don't have perfect grammar, which you don't, do not critique others.
No, there's not. This is your ridicules assumption. I've already broken the comment down, Vader was a crippled half man half droid. Fact. Did that deny him speed? No. Really being more energized compared to what? Luke v Vader? Oh course all of the PT duels are gonna be better since, they feature an experienced Jedi vs Jedi or Sith not, a boy vs a Sith Lord toying with him.
Use common sense, I know its a stretch for you...If were going by your ingenious logic then all those included in that little comment: Old Ben, Vader, and LUKE are in fact slow pieces of shit as you so eloquently put it. And that simply is not true:
Now this means one of two things, Lucas was simply dissing his OT characters for what they were, an old man, a half machine, a boy and he wanted fights between Jedi who were fully trained and no one was holding back. Or it could mean that your right and Lucas has contradicted himself once again and because Obi Wan and Anakin vs Dooku AOTC don't move much faster than the ROTJ duel, Mace Windu vs Sidious is actually SLOWER then that and Anakin and Obi Wan v Dooku pt1 ROTS is SLOWER then that. So which is it? I'm going to go with mine.
Sorry, I've broken this now TWO times.
Did I dispute that? We have NEVER seen real Jedi at work because we've seen an old man, a Sith Lord and a Half trained kid. That was the point.
Ah lets see he had lost his burning desire to "RAWR wheres Obi Wan Ima kill hims!!!!" after 20 years or so, he doesn't even speak to him as if he hated him truly,he speaks in a calm "I'm better then you" attitude, not the "I ahte you for what you did to me ims kills joo!" He had just after ROTS.
Are you seriously trying to say hermit Obi Wan was some kind of god? That he could push Vader? Obi Wan could have never beaten Vader, he knew it, even in the ANH novel he says if he could have beaten Vader he would have. At that point Obi Wan was a shell of a shell of his former self.
Wow you just proved you have no clue what your talking about. There's no defense or offense to the sport? Have you ever heard of you know "shooting" and the defense to that which is "sprawling". When your in a grapple there's the defense called a "cross-face" thats only tapping the surface, this is 5th grade level wrestling here.
No, you not knowing the definition of holding back is whats ridicules
Hold back: to set aside; reserve or retain
Now toying with some one in sword fighting is simply, parrying there blows, mocking them, displaying little skill, all the while dominating them at the same time. Thats what Vader did.
Look at Boxing, look at Floyd Maywhether (Vader) vs Carlos Baldomire( Luke) Floyd dominated the fight, dodging everything Carlos threw, taking pop shots, punching not as fast as he usually does, not throwing combinations all the while maintaining the air of superiority, and he could have knocked him out at ANY time had he dug in and started throwing combos, but he choose not to and still looked like he was a godly fighter without actually doing much.
Now look at his fight with Jose Luis Castillo, who pushed Floyd to actually fight and exert himself. Showing his skill.
Are you retarded? A rhetorical question. Force sensitivity doesn't matter, this was to show Vaders speed, when people are shooting at you and you can simultaneously dodge, parry and decapitate them and you want me to believe he's slow?
Again, are you a RETARD. Its self explanatory. If it didn't take speed to dodging blaster bolts, EVERY Jedi would have survived Geonosis, EVERY Jedi would have survived the clone wars. Ulic Qel Droma would have lived longer, Since when is tremendous hand speed and foot work NOT required to charge ENTRENCHED foes, you do know what that means right? They were dug into the ground shooting from a top the mounds built from the digging.
That was in regard to Vaders LIGHTNING fast speed, referred to by the narrator in his fight with Roan Shyne. Hooked on Phonics much?
Post them. And the fact that he moves faster then Mace Windu does and Dooku, contradicts this. Baseless and idiotic.
What an idiot. My argument implied that Vader is stronger then Qui Gon and Obi Wan who Maul tooled, and because its Vader, who is one of the most powerful Sith ever, the fact Maul pushed him to damn near kill himself is enough.
Yes because, I'm your superior, and I view myself better then mostly everyone here. But thats regardless, its the fact that YOU are a idiot. That YOU can't logically and coherently debate. That YOU make no sense half the time. That you try to pass of half assed assumptions as fact. That YOU misquote and exaggerate feats. That YOU are generally considered the worst debater here. That YOU are in all actuality a joke. That YOU are even an insult to all the retards and idiots here.
" My argument implied that Vader is stronger then Qui Gon and Obi Wan who Maul tooled, and because its Vader, who is one of the most powerful Sith ever, the fact Maul pushed him to damn near kill himself is enough."
Actually, you have no proof that Vader>Qui-gon or Obi-Wan at full power (not the one he killed because this one was simply a weak version of the ROTS' Obi-Wan; Vader even said "your powers are weak old man"). Actually, i always thought Cyber Vader was good with powers but so good with the saber. Also, the ROTJ fight, well, Vader was not that fast, in fact he seems pretty slow...
Anyway, this is a tough match. Just one question, vader killed anyone especially good as cyber vader?
Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Picking up some power converters.
Script:
"The two Galactic warriors stand perfectly still for a few
moments, sizing each other up and waiting for the right
moment. Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain,
as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He
shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes.
Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked
by a lightning movement of The Sith. A masterful slash stroke
by Vader is blocked by the old Jedi. Another of the Jedi's
blows is blocked, then countered. Ben moves around the Dark
Lord and starts backing into the massive starship hangar. The
two powerful warriors stand motionless for a few moments with
laser swords locked in mid-air, creating a low buzzing sound."
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
cause I was gone for a few days and saw outright blatant bullshit, and had to come back and put it on top so i could easily find it to rebut that shit...
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
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lets just let it die, i think this vader vs dooku thing is the biggest debate in KMC so lets all drop it because it will never die, god this is like what the 3rd time?
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
yea i know...just the ignorance provided as "proof" astounds me and pisses me off to the point i want to beat the shit out of something...but damn, if kadesh is trying to drop a Vader fight, then may as well, lol.
Dec 16th, 2006 09:13 AM
