DE Sidious and Lord Vitiate

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Merry Christmas, you British bastard.

Did you get anything good? I didn't. The best gift was money, which I've spent to get myself a present.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is irrelevant, given that Vitiate's superiority over Nyriss is not in question. The quote provides us with nothing that enables us to determine where he would be, other than more powerful than her.

And since my entire point was that by virtue of that great superiority over Nyriss who herself has one of the greatest displays of Force Lightning in Star Wars (turning a being to ash even after going through Force Shields) meaning that Vitiates lightning is logically atop the pinnacle of the technique, it is not irrelevent.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That the Hero is a prodigy of sorts is not in question. The fact that Orgus Din can collapse a cave does not equate to Dooku lifting that weight. The former is aided by gravity whereas the latter defies it.

Did I say that it did? I merely pointed out that it was a lot of rock and thus quit an impressive feat. But anyway, you seem to have no objects to the Hero being incredibly powerful now.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because feat comparisons are useful when one is trying to determine a Force user's strength relative to another.

And when have I indicated that that is not exactly what I am doing?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Comparing Bane and Plagueis, for example, one might make special mention of Plagueis's ability to disintegrate half a dozen assassins on the fly when mortally injured. No one would suggest that Plagueis could replicate the feat, even at full strength, with a fully prepared Bane, who is capable of producing powerful Force shields and retaliating with his own formidable powers.

Vitiate's ability to reduce droids to their baser components with telekinesis might very well make him appear more powerful than Force users with less impressive telekinesis, but it hardly means that he could reproduce its effects in a fight against that Force user.

Then your point is meaningless since this is a factor in every other feat we take into account. Unless you were thinking I thought that Vitiate was actually hitting the Hero with building destroying TK, in which case LOLWTF? haermm

It stands to reason that the more powerful a Force user is with TK, the easier it will be to tear through their opponents Force Shields. You seem to be trying to dismiss Vitiates feats out of hand by saying 'it didn't do him much good against the Hero, so obviously he sucks.' Which is an incredibly illogical and disingenuous argument to make. Clearly the power of Vitiates Force powers must be taken into account. The fact that he lost to the Hero of Tython does not preclude him from being able to overwhelm another opponent. Thus, your point is meaningless.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He does defend himself against Sidious's lightning.

Proof of that?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Furthermore, we see demonstrations of Yoda's durability when he plummets from the Senate pod to the floor (a fall that would incapacitate or kill most humans) and his extraordinary biological longevity. He might very well be resistant to lightning beyond the standard adept.

That was never your point though. You said 'No one suggests that the Emperor's ash-reducing lightning would manifest against enemies on the caliber of Yoda'. So do you think that Sidious would be similarly unable to disintegrate an enemy solely by virtue of them being as powerful as Yoda is, were they not to hinder the lightning in any way?

Also, this is mere speculation on your part, there is nothing indicating Yoda is especially lightning-resistant.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because the Hero fled from the earthquake-causing telekinesis after the fight's end, rather than contest it?

How does that show that Vitiate couldn't use that same level of power in a fight?

Besides which, by the time the Hero notices what Vitiates doing, the temple is already collapsing. They'd of had to block Vitiates attempts and hold up the temple at the same time. Fleeing was easier.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Inconsequential against a truly formidable Force user, yes. Contrary to your suggestions, T7 is not going to rival a powerful Force adept in combat prowess or skill.

And your proof of that is? T7 survives plenty of fights against powerful Force users and even fought in the Sacking of Coruscant. His codex entry also says that 'T7-01 serves the Jedi by bravely facing danger on a daily basis' and that 'the droid's hard work is responsible for saving dozens, if not hundreds, of lives on Tython alone.' And as I've said, astromechs can be incredible fighters, as evidenced by T3 defeating 3 HK-50 droids by himself. Earlier models of the HK series have proven themselves against Jedi-level opponents.

Besides which, he merely stunned one of them while it ran past him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Moreover, the Hero broke off and dealt with them one-on-one; there is no reason to assume that another Force adept would deal with them in the exact same time-consuming manner or that they have to be dealt with in such a way.

You mean like with Force powers? That still takes time, especially if used on multiple targets surrounding you. I'll also have you know that they are resistant to Force attacks.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if you want to ignore its definition as issued by The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia as any "unusual localization" of dark side energy. I should think that a world that is said to "bristle" with the dark side would qualify.

Even if we were to grant that speculation, is there proof that a Sith automatically gains power from a darkside nexus. As Legend pointed out, Zannah had to specifically draw on Ambrias energies in order to use it.

Furthermore, that could easily just be metaphorical hyperbole for how Dromund Kass bristles with dark side practicioners.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That would depend greatly on any time by Vitiate to prepare for the Emperor's arrival. Comparatively, Palpatine's combat feats are consistently superior.

Only in regards to his lightsaber skills. In every other aspect they are close or Vitiate is superior.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As Arhael explained, electing to save Carsen from the Empire will afford Vitiate an opportunity to regain his strength.

In Scourges opinion. Since he is not present to sense it himself he is a poor witness.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
When we consider that, as a spirit, Freedon Nadd was capable of collapsing masonry and affecting the physical world, I'm not particularly inclined to believe that Vitiate's telekinetic powers were reduced by physical injury, especially on a dark side nexus.

As a Sith spirit, yes, not as dying man. Sith spirits aren't affected by the physical world at all, while a living Force User is still bound by it. We have plenty of examples of a Force user being incapacitated or dulled by physical injury. Sidious on his deathbed was killed by Han Solo. Anakin resorted to pulling himself up the banks of Mustafar with his hand. If his Force powers were unaffected he could have pulled himself up with the Force. As a dying man, Darth Bane needed to slaughter a family to feed off of their deaths and rejuvenate his Force powers enough to keep moving.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The official website says he spent a great deal of time pondering the Force's mysteries.

And how much is a 'great deal of time?' 100 years? 2?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Palpatine led a demanding double life as a prominent galactic politician for decades. Combined with a lifespan, next to that of Vitiate or Yoda, that was comparatively short, I suppose he wasn't an especially learned dark sider either?

As you've pointed out in your argument with Nai, Palpatine had plenty of time to study the Force and plenty of materials to do so, as well as a heightened learning rate due to being a particularly powerful dark sider.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where is proof of this? The dark side is a faster path to obtain power, yes, which is why the Emperor regularly encourages his adepts to summon their rage, which focuses their energies and makes them deadlier in combat. Where is the proof that the dark side increases intellectual capability and understanding

POD clearly shows this aspect. Bane learns faster than any other student despite the fact that 'Many of the students had trained for months or years before they had been accepted at the Academy on Korriban' learns Force Lightning faster than Githany did and was able to learn all of Revans holocron in a week or less and Freedon Nadds and Belia Darzu's secrets even faster.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
There is, again, no proof of this. Revan was a considerably young Force user who spent a great deal of time actively commanding armies and, yet, was an extraordinarily learned and masterful Force user.

Revan was noted by the Jedi Masters in Kotor to be extremely hungry for knowledge and went through several teachers in the Force as a padawan. He also had the opportunity to plunder Malachors vast collection of Sith knowledge.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bane, too, was especially young and, as you have argued time and again, was not only extremely powerful, but inordinately educated in the ways of the Force. Dooku studied the Force uninterrupted for approximately eight decades, would you say he had a greater knowledge and mastery of it than Sidious, twenty years his junior?

Notice how all these people are darksiders? Is there examples of lightsiders gaining knowledge this fast or have you just made my point for me?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You incorrectly conflate time spent with Force mastered and there is no evidence of this.

It is not the only aspect in the equation, no.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
not only should Dooku eclipse Sidious in knowledge of the Force,

Sidious had greater access to learning materials and likely was not as obsessed with fencing as Dooku was. I also don't think its mentioned that Dooku was particularly scholarly as Sidious or Vitiate were.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate's mastery and knowledge should be [b]exponentially higher than anyone-- Sidious's included. As should his power, really, if he drained eight thousand Sith Lords and was a prodigy before that.[/b]

Logically, in the case of his mastery and knowledge, this is true. Vitiate had thousands of years, access to a huge knowledge base and was devoted to his studies. His Force Mastery logically is off the charts. I am not too sure about the power aspect however.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which brings us back to the point that neither Vitiate's power or mastery reflects this formula. After studying the Force for over a thousand years, after supposedly consuming the power of an entire world and eight thousand Sith Lords in one fell swoop... the evidence compiled suggests that, at best, he is a peer to the Emperor and other Sith Lords instead of lightyears ahead.

So what is your conclusion to this conundrum?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did you get anything good? I didn't. The best gift was money, which I've spent to get myself a present.

Sorry, but deez hips ain't for sale. avatar3

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry, but deez hips ain't for sale. avatar3

Hahahahahahahaha. Awww, damn. x//3

Originally posted by Nephthys
In TOR, Vitiates true location for the majority of the game is on Voss, studying their unique Force abilities, such as the ability to perceive the future, which is how he knows the Hero of Tython will kill him.

Farsight?

Why are we assuming that Vitiate's knowledge of the force surpasses Palpatine's just because he was a scholar who lived longer? Plagueis was also a scholar who lived longer than Palpatine. Are their any quotes regarding Vitiate's knowledge or acquired collection of knowledge? If not, I'm not going to assume his knowledge surpassed Palpatine's.

I'm only aware of Vitiate's combat performance, so IDK.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As a Sith spirit, yes, not as dying man. Sith spirits aren't affected by the physical world at all, while a living Force User is still bound by it. We have plenty of examples of a Force user being incapacitated or dulled by physical injury. Sidious on his deathbed was killed by Han Solo.

Well, Palpatine's body was dying, so he probably just lacked the speed. However, right before that, Palpatine had stated that his power was not dependent on mere flesh alone. It's true that if a force user is weak they will try to reserve their energy to keep their body alive. Heavy force usage would only drain them further. For example, when Plagueis was mortally wounded by assassins, he wasn't going all out on them at first, but when he prepared for death, he planned on "unleashing hell" on them, indicating that he was purposely holding back at first.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, this is mere speculation on your part, there is nothing indicating Yoda is especially lightning-resistant.

It seems that the more powerful the force user is, the more punishment their bodies can take. Palpatine, for instance, was able to shrug off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery.

Palpatine used a very short blast of FL on Yoda and it was still sufficient to knock him unconscious.

Originally posted by Arhael
I give weight only to reliable sources. And now jadams3928 himself posted quote proving that Nyriss’ story is wrong, which means you are wrong as well.

I am in no mood to discuss this point further untill I get the encyclopedia myself.

Originally posted by Arhael
Give up to what? I don't need to prove that there is no mind domination during combat because you haven't proved that there is. And no, it wasn't flashback of fight. JK was holding lightsaber at front of him until lightning knocked him off feet. And ones lightning overpowered him, there were lightning forks dancing all over his body. None of it was in as you call it "flashback", so you building your argument on nothing.

"You are mine. Servants. Slaves. Weapons. And you will obey…" (Sith Emperor)

Originally posted by Arhael
It is flashback of something else, thus mind domination occurred at some point later.

Originally posted by Arhael
By experimenting or discovering them from teachings of other. That doesn’t make them more powerful.

Originally posted by Arhael
Don’t be silly that was Luke’s counter
Here:
“Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.

In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh”

What I gather from this is that Nyax's approach gave sufficient time to Luke to think and counter.

Originally posted by Arhael
Scourge was simply pissing his pants, he wasn’t getting mind dominated by it.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Revan saw reflexion of his evil after his will was already broken.

The key word is 'when'; and not 'after'. The rest is mere detail of what Revan experienced during this process.

Originally posted by Arhael
Experience gives stronger or weaker mentality in general, there just needs to be right state of mind. As I posted Luke’s example, his dedication to Jedi ways and good memories allowed him to resist mind domination. Similarly accepting Sidious teaching made him mentally weaker. There was no spcefic technique in either case.

Originally posted by Arhael
And we still don’t know how strong their mentality was at that point.

Originally posted by Arhael
Mind domination is controlling mind of others, instilling thoughts into minds of others. It is advanced version of mind influence. In any case you don’t know how Vitiate’s mind domination works because it wasn’t described in the book. In any case it is irrelevant to the thread.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation. (SWTOR Revan)

Originally posted by Arhael
It was Force push...

The following are the examples of Force push:

1. As he fell to the ground, Meetra thrust her free hand out toward the next closest soldier, palm open. The woman flew backward, lifted off her feet and hurtled across the cave by the Force until she slammed into the rock face of the far wall. She slid to the ground, dead. (SWTOR Revan)

2. In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest. An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. (SWTOR Revan)

3. Revan landed on the ground and wheeled around to face the other man. He thrust out with the Force, the impact hitting the soldier square in the chest. Instead of sending him flying, it only staggered him back half a step—this close to the Emperor they were sworn to protect, the guards were able to draw on his power to protect themselves. (SWTOR Revan)

4. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward. (SWTOR Revan)

This is NOT Force push:

Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.

There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward. (SWTOR Revan)

Originally posted by Arhael
No. Force drain is about leaching Force out of Force user and getting empowered by it.
Here is proof:
“ The Sith seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head. ”

What do you think "leaching Force out of Force user" implies?

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes." (KOTOR II: Darth Traya)

Sever Force technique is based on the same principle, except that it severs an individual's connection with the Force itself and may not necessarily empower its user in return.

Some examples:

- When Vitiate stripped Lord Dramath of his powers during an encounter between them; he logically used a Sever Force technique.

- Nomi Sunrider also used a Sever Force technique to sever Ulic's connection with the Force.

- Luke and Leia jointly used a Sever Force technique to sever Sidious's connection with the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
As for your quotes first one says: “you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm...
you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm. ” – as you see nothing says that it kills, on opposite it is used to avoid harming opponent. Ulic Kel-Droma was severed from the Force with this technique and lived long after.

Originally posted by Arhael
As for Scourge, he was just ill, he wasn’t dying.

Here is an example which proves my point:

She could feel the Void pressing in on her from all sides. At the same time it was pulling on her, trying to rip away the very essence of her existence. Nature abhors a vacuum; the emptiness was trying to fill itself with her energy. For an instant she felt as if she were going to become undone, her physical body discorporating into trillions of subatomic particles that would scatter across the entire surface of Nathema.

No! she screamed in her mind. The Void will not take me! I am more than just a collection of random matter and particles! I am a living being. I am Meetra Surik!

The affirmation of her own existence seemed to push the Void back, at least for the moment. But Meetra knew she couldn't hold out against it much longer. (SWTOR Revan)

Originally posted by Arhael
Other characters that were severed from the Force at some point: Callista, Jacen, Tahiri and Ben Skywalker. And of course Yuuzhan Vong. So, ones again Revan being on that planet is no feat, stick to the topic.

Genius! Accept Revan, none of the others in your list, spent time on worlds devoid of the Force itself. His feat is really big.

Meetra (herself) severed her connection with the Force and lived like this for a long period as well. However, Meetra found it impossible to cope in a world which was devoid of the Force itself for even a day, let alone long period. See above.

Originally posted by Arhael
It doesn’t matter, since he used lightning.

You make it sound like as if Vitiate needs to bombard opponents with Force Lightning first and then break them.

Revan and Malak? Hello?

Recalling the first time:

As they drew closer to the throne room, Revan's thoughts drifted back to his last confrontation with the Emperor. In all his battles, he had never faced an enemy with that kind of power. The dark side had radiated from him in palpable waves, his physical shell barely able to contain the crackling energy.

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn't even fair to call it a battle. (SWTOR Revan)

Second time:

The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn't even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready. (SWTOR Revan)

Try to comprehend.

The feats of shrugging off Vitiate's mental influence (depicted in SWTOR game) are canonically unexplained and have nothing to do with effectiveness of his telepathic abilities during combat situations, specially against first-timers.

Originally posted by Arhael
You are the one who can’t give prove that he used mind domination in that scene and the more you try, the more silly you look. The only baseless argument is yours.

You are the one who is trying to pass your interpretation as concrete and written in stone. And when other examples have been provided, you attempted to find excuses to negate them like in the case of Revan and Malak. You have no proof that suggests that Revan and Malak were half-Sith or half-fallen prior to confrontation with Vitiate. It is true that Revan made some brutal choices during the Mandalorian Wars but this doesn't suggests that he was mentally corrupted. He was still a Jedi at this point.

Originally posted by Arhael
No. Tol Braga stated “We can resist him.” In that moment he was walking forward and there was no forks of lightning dancing on his body.

This modification in power broke the entire Jedi Strike Team instantly:

You can see Force Lightning mixed with it.

PWNED.

Originally posted by Arhael
In quote I posted it was described as “veins of Force lightning”.
This is quote from “Third Lesson”:

“At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed veins of blue Force lightning. They struck the charging Jedi: swept through his defenses, swirled around him, and began to burn flesh.”
As you see it is described exactly the same way, so quit bullshit.

Shouting with pain, the Jedi leaned forward into the Lightning-teeth bare, blue blades held before him-and staggered towards Malgus. Despite his burns, he came forward. One step, another, another, but he was failing, wilting in the heat of the Lightning. Malgus channeled more power and the Jedi fell to his knees screaming. The lightning spiraled around the Zabrak, blasting dark holes in his body. The Lightsabers fell from his hands and he writhed in agony, screaming pain into the sky.

You think that you can get away by picking and choosing among details from the canonical sources to suite your agenda?

Where did I said that this is an example of FLS?

Here are my previous two statements:

1.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
To further support my point, here is another example: Malgus once unleashed a very intense and powerful blast of Force Lightning against a Jedi Master on Aldeeran which the latter failed to contain even with two lightsabers and died.

2.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am talking about a Malgus's duel on Aldeeran in which he demonstrated his most powerful burst of Force Lightning till date or as far as I know. That bombardment wasn't contained by even two lightsabers. For details, consult The Third Lesson.

Where?

The only purpose of providing this example was to validate my point that Force Lightning in its most potent and/or intense form (FLS) is not possible to contain with a lightsaber, specially for a single individual.

Originally posted by Arhael
Or he just attempted to pull out the same trick as against Nyriss. It’s all subject to interpretation really.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is your opinion. Not a canon statement.

Originally posted by Arhael
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Arhael
Can’t handle being found clearly wrong about something?

Originally posted by Arhael
As I thought. Should I remind you that gameplay outside cut-scenes is non-canon?

Non-canon part is user defined actions in the game.

Originally posted by jadams3928

@jadams3928

Did you find the excerpts from the Old Republic Encyclopedia that confirm Vitiate telepathically dominated the Sith on Nathema?

Nyriss's account have not been explicitly dismissed in any source.

The flashback seems to be from Din's perspective as it pops-up during his comments. Obviously, Din did not witnessed the fight himself.

And developers didn't felt the need to show the whole fight during Din's speech.

Is it too difficult for you to provide full information in the first go?

What I gather from this is that Nyax's approach gave sufficient time to Luke to think and counter.

And no, Nyax gave Luke no time to think or comprehend, Luke got mind dominated and even was helping Nyax to dominate Mara:
"In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh.
He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.

But the sight of her brought memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty..."

As you see Luke’s memories kicked in only after he was already mind dominated.

Correction: Sith Emperor only gave Scourge a minor brush of his telepathic powers. He did not intended to break Scourge during this moment.

This is how Vitiate’s mind domination works:
“ Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. ”

As you see Revan didn’t feel Vitiate’s emotions. It was darkside pressing on him.

The key word is 'when'; and not 'after'. The rest is mere detail of what Revan experienced during this process.

Strong enough to resist temptations of the dark side and fight the Sith.

This is NOT Force push

(KOTOR II: Darth Traya)

Here is an example which proves my point:

As you see it was a psychological battle for her, not physical, she didn't resist void, she tried to ignore it. The only threat was to her mentality. It doesn't matter how powerful she was, she didn't use Force to counter it. Without use of Force it can't be counted as feat.

Genius! Accept Revan, none of the others in your list, spent time on worlds devoid of the Force itself. His feat is really big.

Scourge:
”He had lived his whole life attuned to the Force; having it stripped away had left him physically ill”. – as you see he felt ill because of being dependant on the Force.

You make it sound like as if Vitiate needs to bombard opponents with Force Lightning first and then break them.

Revan and Malak? Hello?

However we have this in second encounter:
“ The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before.” – Emperor wasn’t able to render Revan helpless by overpowering him mentally, his will could withstand at least for some time and he was still able to conjure powerful Force attack. Emperor needs to crush will for mind domination to work. Even non-Force sensitives can resist mind domination because of very strong will.

In comparison Lord Nyax’s mental attack was so powerful that it could not be interrupted or anticipated, it worked instantly:
“ Then he made a thought and drove it into their heads.
It hit Luke like a razorbug fired straight through his forehead. Luke staggered under the pain. His back hit the irregular floor. He waved his lightsaber up and in front of him, a defensive form, but there was no follow-up blow for him to counter.

There was, however, a new priority. He was to switch off his lightsaber and then go attack the Yuuzhan Vong. He leapt to his feet and turned his weapon off. He could see Mara and Tahiri doing the same.”

It is true that Revan made some brutal choices during the Mandalorian Wars but this doesn't suggests that he was mentally corrupted. He was still a Jedi at this point.

He did jack. Sith Emperor temporarily stopped his bombardment. And afterwards, Sith Emperor mixed something with his Force Lightning:

This modification in power broke the entire Jedi Strike Team instantly:

You can see Force Lightning mixed with it.

PWNED.

Read this:
“ Braga, Narezz, Sedoru, and the Knight were subsequently defeated and then brainwashed by Vitiate, becoming the Emperor's pawns. ”

“ Raising his hands, the Emperor let loose a blazing storm of violet lightning that sent Narezz and Sedoru crashing to the floor while Braga, Carsen and the Hero struggled to deflect it. It was not long before Braga and then Carsen succumbed to the Emperor's attack as well, leaving only the Knight to advance slowly against the storm. The Emperor then summoned a ball of pure dark side energy in his hands and unleashed his full power against the Hero, throwing the Jedi to the floor as the Emperor began to dominate the minds of his fallen enemies. ”

These quotes come from wookieepedia. By chance they happened to support my opinion in terms of mind domination but it doesn’t matter. They can’t be used as proof. Why? Because they are non-canon. Why? Because they are mere interpretation of events by various people. The same rules apply to your analysis. It has no weight and can’t be used as proof. So my point stays. There is no proof that he can mind dominate someone of at least Tol Braga level. You can speculate, assume, build up theories, post facepalms, none of that will change it.

The only purpose of providing this example was to validate my point that Force Lightning in its most potent and/or intense form (FLS) is not possible to contain with a lightsaber, specially for a single individual.

Your argument is especially silly considering that Sidious’ lightning was blocked by less powerful Windu.

This is how it is portrayed canonically. Quit BS.

I think that other members have corrected your BS here. This example alone shows that how much you are filled with misconceptions.

Should I remind you that Sith Emperor's abilities are canonically defined in the game?

Originally posted by Arhael
It doesn’t need to be dismissed, it needs to be confirmed to be valid.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which means it was useless to use as proof on first place.

Originally posted by Arhael
Or it wasn't flashback but visualization of JK's state of mind.

Originally posted by Arhael
I try to write everything in one post and gave quote with how mind domination resistance work, the rest was irrelevant.

From what you disclosed in the aforementioned link, this;

Originally posted by Arhael
And no, Nyax gave Luke no time to think or comprehend, Luke got mind dominated and even was helping Nyax to dominate Mara:
"In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh.
He turned to Mara, beckoning her to join. She was facing the Yuuzhan Vong warriors, preventing them from surprising Luke with an attack, but her gaze was yanked to Luke. Her eyes widened, and he could feel her leaning toward him, leaning toward acceptance of this crucial duty.

But the sight of her brought memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty..."

As you see Luke’s memories kicked in only after he was already mind dominated.

- and the other tidbits that you revealed in your previous responses are blatant attempts to conceal the revelation that Mara helped Luke break free from Nyax's mental grasp during this encounter. You even hinted that Yuuzhan Vong also distracted Nyax from focusing properly.

Therefore, you point is NULL and VOID; and on the basis of your own disclosures.

Sincere advice: stop trying to manipulate information to suite your agenda. This shows your hypocrisy.

Originally posted by Arhael
Correction: minor brush with his mind, there is no mention of telephatic powers.

Originally posted by Arhael
This is how Vitiate’s mind domination works:
“ Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. ”

As you see Revan didn’t feel Vitiate’s emotions. It was darkside pressing on him.

You are unfit to debate Star Wars. I now say this openly.

It is obvious that Drew didn't wanted to explain the whole inside story of Vitiate's mental domination during this encounter when the author previously gave hints in the novel through the experiences of both Scourge and Revan.

When Vitiate initiates mind domination, he bombards the opponent's mind with horrific images of his actions on Nathema (reflection of his EVIL, as once hinted by Revan) to overwhelm the opponent's senses and mental processes, and also exerts sufficient oppressing pressure on the opponent's mind to eventually break him/her through the power of the dark side. I know that this novel is not very well written but Drew's intended message can only be grasped by analyzing different tidbits of Vitiate's telepathic actions in the context of mental influence.

Originally posted by Arhael
It means he broke his will to do that. Otherwise it would be "When he was breaking my will" or "while he was breaking my will".

Originally posted by Arhael
No, he did not resist, he followed it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Defying Jedi council and rushing into war is a darkside choice.

Disagreements are part of life. They happen within the Jedi. As a hint to you, in SWTOR game, Satele Shan points this fact.

Your excuses are both lame and baseless.

Originally posted by Arhael
Moreover, he and Malak brought Jedi to Korriban to make it easier to convince them to follow his cause. Willingly turning other Jedi to darkside is not a Jedi way at all.

Originally posted by Arhael
Force push is telekinetic effort to push object. That's what happened to Vitiate. The fact that Revan reached specific state of mind to do that doesn't make it whole new technique.

Originally posted by Arhael
Traya's interpretation conflicts with Force drain in game. Same way in Troy Denning book Force drain was done without severing.

Originally posted by Arhael
And here is my Meetra's example, which follows after yours and dismisses your “proof”:
"The affirmation of her own existence seemed to push the Void back, at least for the moment. But Meetra knew she couldn’t hold out against it much longer. As much as she tried to ignore what she felt—or, more precisely, didn’t feel—all around her, she knew it was only a matter of time until the horrors of Nathema stripped away her sanity."

As you see it was a psychological battle for her, not physical, she didn't resist void, she tried to ignore it. The only threat was to her mentality. It doesn't matter how powerful she was, she didn't use Force to counter it. Without use of Force it can't be counted as feat.

As I pointed above, Star Wars isn't your forte at all.

Originally posted by Arhael
Haha. As I pointed out it is not a Force feat. In fact Revan being able to stay at Nathema longer means that he wasn’t as attuned to the Force as Meetra at the time.

This is such a stupid argument that I am left speechless here.

"The Force flows through you like no other student we had ever seen before" (Jedi Council to Revan)

Originally posted by Arhael
Scourge:
”He had lived his whole life attuned to the Force; having it stripped away had left him physically ill”. – as you see he felt ill because of being dependant on the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
Featless Revan and Malak at the time. His power level and state of mind at the time is unknown, which makes it impossible to estimate how potent it was.

Both Revan and Malak were battle-hardened warriors by this time. They fought in the battles themselves. They would have lot of feats to their name during the whole war. Only issue is that details are still missing.

A glimpse of Malak in action:

By the time, Mandalorian Wars ended, Revan's combat feats exceeded that of Ulic's. The former Jedi defeated a very powerful Mandalore in single combat, and prior to this, he single-handedly fought and destroyed many Basilisks, and also killed many Mandalorians during the many battles.

You are absolutely clueless.

Originally posted by Arhael
However we have this in second encounter:
“ The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before.” – Emperor wasn’t able to render Revan helpless by overpowering him mentally, his will could withstand at least for some time and he was still able to conjure powerful Force attack. Emperor needs to crush will for mind domination to work. Even non-Force sensitives can resist mind domination because of very strong will.

Originally posted by Arhael
In comparison Lord Nyax’s mental attack was so powerful that it could not be interrupted or anticipated, it worked instantly:
“ Then he made a thought and drove it into their heads.
It hit Luke like a razorbug fired straight through his forehead. Luke staggered under the pain. His back hit the irregular floor. He waved his lightsaber up and in front of him, a defensive form, but there was no follow-up blow for him to counter.

There was, however, a new priority. He was to switch off his lightsaber and then go attack the Yuuzhan Vong. He leapt to his feet and turned his weapon off. He could see Mara and Tahiri doing the same.”

Originally posted by Arhael
It does suggest. Rush into war. Use darkside nexuses to corrupt other Jedi. Challenging and killing Mandalor. None of it would be done by non-corrupted character.

Also, Mandalore the Ultimate himself challenged Revan to a duel. Revan accepted.

Originally posted by Arhael
Your claims become more hilarious with each turn.

Originally posted by Arhael
It was my mistake to counter your views with my views.

Read this:
“ Braga, Narezz, Sedoru, and the Knight were subsequently defeated and then brainwashed by Vitiate, becoming the Emperor's pawns. ”

“ Raising his hands, the Emperor let loose a blazing storm of violet lightning that sent Narezz and Sedoru crashing to the floor while Braga, Carsen and the Hero struggled to deflect it. It was not long before Braga and then Carsen succumbed to the Emperor's attack as well, leaving only the Knight to advance slowly against the storm. The Emperor then summoned a ball of pure dark side energy in his hands and unleashed his full power against the Hero, throwing the Jedi to the floor as the Emperor began to dominate the minds of his fallen enemies. ”

These quotes come from wookieepedia. By chance they happened to support my opinion in terms of mind domination but it doesn’t matter. They can’t be used as proof. Why? Because they are non-canon. Why? Because they are mere interpretation of events by various people. The same rules apply to your analysis. It has no weight and can’t be used as proof. So my point stays. There is no proof that he can mind dominate someone of at least Tol Braga level. You can speculate, assume, build up theories, post facepalms, none of that will change it.

Originally posted by Arhael
It does not validate your point in any way because there is no evidence that that Jedi is as powerful as Malgus or that he is skilled at blocking lightning. Moreover, I gave another feat with much more worthy opponent (Aryn) that blocked his lightning completely and nothing indicates that it was weaker than in your example.

Originally posted by Arhael
Your argument is especially silly considering that Sidious’ lightning was blocked by less powerful Windu.

Originally posted by Arhael
Canonically there is Force lightning and electric judgment. FSL doesn’t exist. Force user can get overpowered by lightning as result of lower potential, skill or simply low performance but it doesn’t prove that this power is unblockable.

Originally posted by Arhael
Aging factor is irrelevant. Palpatine’s greatest feats come from clone body and you have nothing to say against that.

Originally posted by Arhael
Should I remind you that ALL Emperors disappear in game? There was no real one among them. Whoever you attack will disappear eventually without exception. And ALL of them had lightsaber, real one doesn’t have lightsaber.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I assumed that these Force cults had an approach regarding the Force that varied from standard Jedi and Sith archetypes and that their techniques and knowledge would be idiosyncratic to that different paradigm. Unlike some, I have no reason to conclude that their perspectives and powers are virtually identical to their progenitors.

Just to clarify: You assume that these Force cults had an approach regarding the Force that varied from those of the "standard" Jedi and Sith, despite the fact, that already different approaches are present within the main orders. And, of course, despite the fact, that those Force cults have partitially influenced the two main orders (e.g. the Followers of Palawa the Sith), have been absorbed by said orders during time of their foundation (e.g. the Order of Dai Bendu into the Jedi Order) or were descendants from those orders (e.g. the Sorcerers of Tund from the Ancient Sith). You then assume, that the "variations" of the philosophy regarding the Force led to techniques unique to those orders and, again, different from the myriads of Force abilities known to and used by the Jedi and Sith. Is that a correct interpretation of your reasoning?

If the answer to that question is "yes", you are, of course, facing the next problem in your reasoning: There is no source that gives the extent or content of Sidious studies regarding those Force cults. So for all we know he might have checked their history or philosophy, without learning a single new force technique from them.

Yet, despite of all that evidence, which makes the development of Force techniques by those Orders, that varied from those of the Jedi and Sith highly unlikely, you assume that those most exists. And despite of the fact, that there is not even a hint to Sidious learning those special abilities – even ignoring their entire speculative nature – you assume that this is exactly what he did.

Don't you think that this is merely the contruction of a house of cards, based upon nothing but assumptions and speculation, rather than something that would constitute as an argument, especially in the light of the somewhat common sense defying nature of those assumptions and speculations? Just asking.

No, I assumed that they learned more by studying these Force cults than by not studying these Force cults. It's a reasonable assumption: that a more diverse education would yield broader knowledge than a more pedestrian one.

It would be a reasonable assumption, if the nature of the knowledge gained via those studies was irrelevant. But given that it is the main question of that little debate here, I guess it is very well relevant. So one would be in need to demonstrate, that Sidious learned something furthering his knowledge in the ways of the Force or equipping him with new force abilities. Do you have such prove at hand or even something that hints to that direction? If not, this debate here is nothing but idle talk.

But unlike Vitiate, we have a myriad of express quotes regarding the Emperor's concerted efforts to "study the Force in all its guises" by gathering "the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds" (The Dark Empire Sourcebook).

So because Sidious has been around for more than 30 years longer than Vitiate, with the effect that more sources tell about his deeds, we must accept that his knowledge is superior to that of the Sith Emperor? Do I need to lecture you on logical fallacies? This is clearly nothing but an argumentum ad numerum, an appeal to the number of sources proclaiming something.

And yet, the best thing you can up with, are quotes from a 20 year old source, with contents that have been written even before "Empire's End" was released - not mentioning pretty much everything else in the expanded universe? I wonder how acurate those quotes still are, given that the same section contains gems like that:

"Since the Dark Side didn’t lend itself to sharing and other such weak-minded
attitudes, there had not been organizations of Dark Side servants to endure the ages. There was no great collection of Dark Side lore, nor any gathering of its masters." - The Dark Empire Sourcebook, p.66

It's somewhat difficult for me to put much trust into a source that pretty much denies the existance of Bane's Sith Order and lists the study of those exotic Force cults as main base for Sidious force knowledge.

Naturally, you'd want me to assume that not only did Vitiate replicate these efforts, he exceeded them. If you produce quotes that indicate or suggest as much, we'll talk. Until then, there's really no point.

After being regonized as Sith Lord by Marka Ragnos (at age 16), Vitiate "returned home to his home to conduct his research into the depths of the dark side's power" (Darth Revan, iBook, Chapter 15, p.188). A research that apperently lasted for more than a century, and earned him the "reputation of a scholar" (ibid.). And, of course, it allowed him to perform what was described as "the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted" (Darth Revan, p.189) which made him virtually immortal.

And of course, there is chapter 29 of that little book. Not only does it show, that Vitiate kept his own little laboratory in his private chamber within his citadel on Dromund Kaas, allowing him to grant Lord Scourge immortality as well via Sith sorcery / alchemy (see Darth Revan, p.327ff.). He also kept Revan in a place that was "as much laboratory as prison" (Darth Revan, p.330).

In addition:
"Before withdrawing into isolation, the Emperor established a Dark Council to oversee the Empire and control the hierarchy of the Sith. He is said to have conducted many dark side rituals and experiments that affected the planet itself, leaving Dromund Kaas storm-wracked to this day. - Star Wars: The Old Republic, Codex Entry Galactic History 33."

"Hundreds of years ago, the Sith Emperor ordered the construction of the Dark Temple as a burial place for his dead and defeated enemies, 'to aid them in becoming one with the Force.' Little is known of what rituals the Emperor performed there, but the Dark Temple has become a nexus of powerful dark side energy, and a place where ancient weapons and ancient secrets of the Sith lay sealed away in cavernous chambers. - Star Wars: The Old Republic, Codex Entry "The Dark Temple".

"The Sith Empire's exile dragged on for centuries. While the military, navy, and Sith grew strong, the Emperor amassed unfathomable power and plottet a vengeful war against the Republic. He ruled from the privacy of his chambers in the citadel, his life extended to virtual immortality by Sith sorcery." - The Old Republic Encyclopedia, p. 157

"Over the centuries of the Empire's exile, the Emperor continued to develop his secret power base and guard against unseen threats. In his relentless and selfish pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side." - The Old Republic Encyclopedia, p.161

Enough?

Somewhat? Perhaps. Entirely, no, which is the difference between an argument favoring Vitiate's "broader" knowledge. I can't give you a list of Force powers that Sidious mastered from the Heresiarchs or Sorcerers of Tund. Nor have I, in turn, demanded a comprehensive list of Vitiate's abilities by which to compare the fruits of their concerted efforts.

That you can't understand my argument doesn't mean its "entirely speculative". That would be the fitting term to descripe your argument, which is, based on assumption, speculation and flawed premises.

And you're not just inable to provide a "list" of Force powers Sidious mastered from those Force cults - you can't produce one single ability he learned from his study of those cults. And the fact that Vitiate did archive immortality - something Sidious did strive for and, according to Plagueis, archived only in a flawed, substitutive fashion compared to Vitiate, is testament enough of the Sith Emperors knowledge eclipsing that of Sidious.

1/4

Though I'd be willing to bet that, in spite of a thousand years' greater time to dedicate to research, Vitiate's displayed mastery does not exceed Sidious's by any substantial degree.

That is, simply put, hilarious.

Vitiate was a prodigy in the use of the dark side. Without formal training, he overpowered a freaking Sith Lord (at the age of ten) and was acknowledge as a Sith Lord by Ragnos at the age of 16, dominating an entire planet. At the same age, Sidious was some nice guy on Naboo. One hundred years later, Vitiate was one of the most proficient Sith sorcerers / alchemists, in an era considered the "golden age" of those abilities and the ritual he conducted on Nathema (the bit about seemingly mindraping the 8000 Sith Lords present at that time not even mentioned) is a nice testament to his abilities. And this was before he parked his immortal ass on his throne on Dromund Kaas.

When touching his mind for one second, Scourge "[...]cried out in anguish[...]then collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.277) The reason for this being, that he "[...]witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in hist worst nightmares" (ibid.). Vitiate was so powerful, that Scourge "[...]could feel the power of the dark side emanating from him with such intensity that it caused a faint rippling of the air" (Darth Revan, p.274).

When confronting the Sith Emperor for the first time, Revan, accompanied by Malak was simple mindraped and turned into a puppet to do the bidding of Vitiate (compare Darth Revan, p.299). The second time Revan confronts Vitiate, he sees that "[...]the dark side had radiated from him in palpable waves, his physical shell barely able to contain the crackling energy." (Darth Revan, p.313). A confrontation that Vitiate opens by casually overpowering Revan's force defense (who in turn had casually destroyed Nyriss, who was capable turning soldiers into "charred husks" in split seconds with her force lightning). And while Revan, Scourge and the Exile with combined efforts manage to get close to the Emperor, neither Revan nor his Sith companion are sure, that they – together with the Exile – would be capable of overcoming Vitiate in direct confrontation. Which we don't find out, because Scourge takes the save road and murders the Exile, enabling Vitiate to casually blast Revan into coma.

Aside of that, we have that little episode, where the entire Dark Council turns against the will of the Sith Emperor. Vitiate's reaction: "He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the citadel." (The Old Republic Encyclopedia, p.157)

So simple Force killing almost a dozen Force wielding individuals (who are, in general, thought to be the most powerful beings in the Sith Empire because of their position) is not beneath Vitiate, even without actually leaving his throne room...

One could also point to the abilities he – acting through his voice – does use within ToR.

YouTube video

Leveling an entire group of Jedi Masters and, following that, mind control one of them completely? Vitiate is up to the task. Take note how he pretty much fills the entire room with Force Lightning.

YouTube video

Simply listen to Scourge revealing the future plans of Vitiate. The galactic scale manipulations of the likes of Plagueis and Sidious, while impressive on their own, pale a little bit in comparison, don't you think so?

In conclusion: Vitiate's displayed mastery is, as of now, toppling that of anybody else in the mythos, with the only truely unique demonstration of power not replicated by the Sith Emperor on a greater scale on Sidious side, is his ability to summon Force storms. I'm certain, one could make arguments for the likes of Luke Skywalker (and others) bringing down Vitiate utilizing some extreme methods. But with the stuff demonstrated, I don't think any individual stands a chance against him.

That Wookieepedia doesn't have an article on specific Force powers doesn't mean they don't exist nor does it mean that, if they do, they are insignificant. It may very well mean that they have yet to be explored. I would understand if you could find an example of such a technique simply failing comparatively, but you conflate relevance or prominence with quality.

Do you see the grand irony of this?

The only irony I see here, is the fact that you attempt to ridicule my argument. The matter of fact is, that there isn't just a Wookiepedia article missing, but any mentioning of one of those supposed Force powers. With all the source about Sidious, one would think that - in at least a single one of them - he would make use of one of that vaunted (and nameless) abilities. Even a single reference of what or how much he learned from those exotic sources would be welcome. But what do we have? Nothing. So instead of "conflating relevance or prominence with quality" I'm merely questioning the mere existance of such techniques which - I may remind you - have still not be mentioned anywhere, not even as "techniques". Because Sidious apparently just studied those cults. Whether it was their history or philosophy he was interested in or something more, lets say "substantial", can not be proven with use of the existing source material.

According to whom?

According to them. If you have other information, please share it.

That said, based on the context of the passage, it's pretty obvious that the texts devoted to the Followers of Palawa, Chratos Academy, and the Order of the Dai Bendu were not "ancient histories," "annals," or "biological studies." (Otherwise, they'd have been listed as such.)

You're take on the issue of literature analysis is somewhat...simplicistic. According to your access of the source material, those text could have been poems, philosophic studies or fairytales, since those categories haven't been mentioned, correct? Not that it matters, given that the Followers of Palawa were a forerunner organisation of the Legions of Lettow and, hence, the Sith Order. The Chratos Academy was the same for the Jedi and the Order of the Dai Bendu joined the Jedi Order in the days of its foundation. I can hardly imagine how much their approach to the Force "varied" from that from Jedi or Sith.

More importantly, consider the two named elements: Sith sorcery & holocron construction. Plagueis consistently expresses disdain for Sith sorcery, which likely owes to his quiet admission that he lacked innate talent for it; similarly, he has no interest in holocron construction when he intends to live forever.

Did you miss the word "including" in the quote, which hints at the fact, that Plagueis did find more of the Ancient Sith teachings "worthless" than just the two fields mentioned?

We know from The Essential Guide to the Force that Sidious recovered important artifacts from two Sith worlds that had been previously described as barren (Khar Delba and Khar Shian). Plagueis may very well have lied to Sidious in order to dissuade him from seeking them out or because the order had previously made concerted efforts to recover what remained.

What we "know" from The Essential Guide to the Force is, that Sidious claims to have found some "valueable relics" (p.161 in the aformentioned source) there. And this information there is already retconed to a certain degree, provided Sidious right after this mentions an "untouched" Ancient Sith temple on Dromund Kaas, which is kind of funny in light of recent ToR related releases.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We know from a myriad of sources that the Emperor's knowledge base was considerable, contrary to your suggestions otherwise. I don't need to remind you of that: you've seen them before, provided by a number of posters, and on more than one occasion.

Were exactly have I suggested otherwise? Non statim pussilum est, si quid maximo minus est. Questioning that Sidious is the most knowledgeable force user in the mythos, doesn't mean, that I think his knowledge isn't considerable. And the "myriads of sources" I've seen consisted mostly of the Dark Empire Sourcebook, the same source you still cling to, that was written before any other Sith Lord than Vader and Palpatine has found his way into existance and that pretty much denies an order of Sith existed over a prolonged time-span.

Compared to Vitiate? We have evidence that the Emperor made concerted, exhaustive efforts to study the Force beyond conventional Jedi and Sith philosophies. If such proof exists for Vitiate, none has been presented here.

Where exactly?
We have evidence that he studied some exotic Force cults - not knowing to what extent or the content of that studies. For all we know he could have read a single text about each of those Force cults, learning about their exquisite cuisine. We have evidence that he branched into the Sith arts and Jedi arts - with furthering his understanding of the former with rituals conducted on Coruscant (e.g. Sithisis) and experiments on Byss. That aside?

2/4

You conflate breadth with depth. It has been generously conceded by me that Vitiate's knowledge of the dark side may exceed the Emperor's in depth. I am not prepared to concede the possibility that Vitiate's knowledge of the Force exceeds the Emperor's in breadth.

And I'm not willing to argue semantics. Ultimately, one has to ask who has the more valueable knowledge (quality) and who has, simply put, a larger amount of knowledge (quantity). I'm assuming that, given the overwhelming amount of statements speaking about the catastrophic loss of knowledge from the era of the Great Hyperspace War onwards (for the Sith, that is), and the abilities the Sith Emperor demonstrated, Vitiate could command Dark Side knowledge that dwarfes that of Sidious. And that is already refering to Vitiate before he became virtually immortal.

And having more than a millenium to refine that knowledge, he could have unravelled secrets of the Force like no other being in history of the SW universe. And note: While the latter part here is a mere assumption based on the texts available on Vitiate, his actions on Dromund Kaas and his nature as a scholar, the mere fact that he rendered himself immortal and was capable of granting that "gift" to others, puts him head and shoulders about everything Sidious or Plagueis have ever archived. You can accept that or...not.

Not really, but I would understand why that would be believed by someone who is convinced that Sidious was, despite the hilariously vast evidence to the contrary, an ignorant rube in the ways of the Force.

For somebody crying about other people missrepresenting your opinion, you're demonstating a remarkable lightheartedness doing so yourself with the opinion of others. I can just repeat myself: Non statim pussilum est, si quid maximo minus est. If something is smaller than the greatest, that does not mean it is insignificant.

No one suggested that the foundation of Bane's Sith did not derive from ancient Sith teachings. Given that general education (in-universe and out) involves building off the developments of progenitors, I should have thought this was obvious.

Gee.
Despite all evidence suggesting otherwise, you still seem to cling to the idea, that the Sith of Bane's order had access to (nearly) everything the Ancient Sith had at their disposal. Just for you:

"Seviss Vaa was justified in hating the Jedi for laying waste to so many Sith artifacts, but he overlooks the fact that countless treasures were destroyed during civil wars among the Sith Lords.[...]Seviss Vaa does not mention the destruction of the planet Malachor V and its Sith academy some four thousand years ago[...]" - Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide through the Force, p.161

We know that the Jedi have almost driven the Sith to extinction past the Great Hyperspace War, with one single Sith holocron being found (later stolen and destroyed by Kun). Of course the "True Sith" under Vitiate did survive, but:

"Millenia earlier, those who followed the dark side had learned to harness and shape the Force through complex rituals that could control the mind of an enemy and sometimes even warp reality itself. Much of this arcane knowledge had been lost[...]" - Lord Scourge contemplating the ways of the Force, Star Wars: Darth Revan, p.44

So even for the Sith Lords living in an empire ruled by one of the Ancient Sith, most of their teachings were lost. And the one who still had them ruled as some kind of godlike entity. And that knowledge was lost with his death. We know that the Brotherhood of Darkness, as the last forerunner organisation of Bane's Order, didn't have much access to Ancient Sith knowledge and didn't care much about rediscovering it, as is evident by Bane's description of his training on Korriban. So the Sith Order Bane founded, when it came to Ancient Sith teachings, had to rely on whatever Bane and the Sith following him were capable of finding throughout the Galaxy over the course of 1000 years, substracting the rather huge amount of knowledge (more than 50 percent of the Orders possessions) that was destroyed by Darth Gravid.

That would be the technique of essence transfer, which Sidious later recovered and mastered. How he achieved this in light of his glaring incompetence, woefully inadequate Force knowledge, and breathtaking lack of galactic resources with which to seek out alternative paths is a mystery to us all.

You'd almost need to rule the galaxy.

Just a minor hint: To attempt a reductio ad ridiculum, you should start with points that your opponent really made, rather than trying to straw man him. And when dealing with me, you better not attempt either. It's not just poor behaviour in debates, it also serves no point, given you execute the idea behind that rhetorical figure so very poorly. Better focus on your arguments, that are already lacking, instead of trying to impress the audience with sophism.

That aside: The technique of essence transfer is just one of the Force powers, that was lost during the time of Plagueis. And even when "mastering" it, Sidious wasn't capable of effortlessly overpowering the will of an adult sentient being, demonstrated by his final demise. He didn't try that thing with Luke, Leia, Jacen or Jaina for that matter, when either of them could have served the same purpose he had in mind for Anakin. Vitiate, in turn, used that ability to a more refined extend and in a more powerful fashion, even turning the likes of Revan, Malak and the Hero of Tython into mere puppets.

Earlier in your post, you misrepresented Plagueis to determine that the contents of the holocrons were worthless. Now, you believe we should "accept the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons"?

Let's dispense with contortionist rhetoric in future posts.

The only person that performs contortioinist rhetorics here, is yourself.
Maybe I should present my arguments in the form of drawings, to enable you to follow them? I quoted Plagueis how he advices Sidious not to focus on Holocrons. Nothing more. Neither have I judged the contents of those Holocrons (that would have been Plagueis finding them "worthless"😉. So what is your point here? Did you want to demonstrate your inability to read or just present a red herring in order not to answer the point I made, which seems to be the case? Once again: According to the quote, the Ancient Sith were capable of things that Sidious and Plagueis couldn't perform and the best Sidious was capable of archiving, was a surrogate for their abilities (immortality by using essence transfer and clones). Any comments regarding that fact? If not, we can move on.

We know that, during his reign, Sidious had access to "an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge" (The Dark Side Sourcebook). All Gravid's destruction proves is that the Sith had a surplus of knowledge and were hardly strapped for lore.

Oh what a brilliant conclusion from a statement that offers zero hard evidence about the quality or quantity of that Sith relics. And even if it did: How could the knowledge gathered by two individuals at a time over the span of 1000 years ever come close to the entire knowledge of an Empire filled with Dark Side users or individuals living in that Empire.

I was tired to explain the same thing over and over again already seven years ago, and I find it astonishing, that some individuals are still incapable of grasping a very basic concept: It is virtually impossible to know as much about a culture, as a person who grew up in that culture, especially after the culture was exterminated several millenia ago. The later Sith dealing with the Ancient Sith are, basically, historians and archeologist of sort, digging up some remains of the progenitors of many of their Force techniques. So even if Sidious had an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment and knowledge, it is entirely impossible for him to have more of those, than somebody living in the Golden Age of the Sith as a Sith Lord within the Sith Empire. I'm rather sure the British Museum has "an enormous wealth" of artifacts, equipment and knowledge linked to Ancient Egypt, but the director of the museum still doesn't know as much about Ancient Egypt as a Pharao.

Now, of course, those Sith in Bane's order were capable of coming up with techniques on their own. But the question is whether those abilities were really "new" or just "reinventions" of techniques already present among the ancient Sith – like the essence transfer mentioned above.

3/4

We're comparing the Emperor's knowledge of the Force to Vitiate's; this is a discussion of individuals, not collectives. The enduring error you commit is that you consistently compare one person (Sidious) with a collective (the Ancient Sith). As though the ancient Sith pooled the entirety of their resources, shared their power and knowledge openly and generously, that deceit, competition, and manipulation weren't virtues among their society as surely as they were among Bane's order.

Apparently, you still don't get the point. Vitiate was part of a collective, the reigning caste of the Sith Empire, who had knowledge at their disposal, that dated back 100,000 years (the Force manipulations of the original Sith species) or 2,000 years (the teachings of the exiled Dark Jedi). As a collective, they have extended that knowledge, much as todays society does the job. I don't need to be an astrophysican to know, that the Earth revolves around the sun – an information that wasn't common knowledge in the Middle Ages. So that "common knowledge" grows with time elapsing and the more people contributing to that common knowledge, the higher the amount of knowledge that can be gained. Does that sound reasonable? I thinks so.

Hence, of course several thousands Sith Lords will generate more knowledge than a collective of two. That is why Plagueis can store his library on an island, while the Ancient Sith had at least one "planet-size storehouse of Sith knowledge and artifacts", known as Malachor V, serveral training facilities (academies) and institutions like Veeshas Tuwan, an ancient Sith library on the planet Arkania, that Seviss Vaa describes as "the greatest loss during that period [Great Hyperspace War]" (The Essential Guide through the Force, p.160).

The most common Sith teachings were available to anybody – at least those who were members of the Sith Lord caste. As you've pointed out so brillantly with your sarcasm-enameled diatribe, the Ancient Sith were somewhat reluctant when it came to sharing knowledge. Correct. Yet, we have examples of knowledge and artifacts passing down as heriditary items (as happened with the Kressh family in the ToR game). Vitiate did wrestle control over Nathema from his biological father (at age 10) and would have inherited whatever knowledge base stored there.

And, apparently, he did put that knowledge base to a very good use, provided that he managed to render himself virtually immortal and do the same with some of his servants (the Hands, Lord Scourge) as some form of reward. The mere demonstrated abilities of the Sith Emperor eclipse anything we have seen by other individuals in the same fields of force lore. Sidious might have been able to transfer his essence into another body. Vitiate managed to put a part of his essence into several individuals (the Hands, his Voice, his children), establishing connections with some (e.g. Revan) while completely dominating the "host body" of his Voice. His success in the quest for immortality does de facto eclipse everything Plagueis and Sidious were capable of. What he did to Nathema makes even the exploits of Darth Nihilus look like childs play. And the amount of powers he was capable of summoning in direct confrontation is unparalleled.

No one has, to my knowledge, suggested that Sidious's knowledge of the dark side outstripped the entirety of the Ancient Sith or the entirety of anyone. Assuming it was true, that the Ancient Sith collectively had more knowledge than Sidious (which I would), that does not suggest that an Ancient Sith Lord has more knowledge than Sidious.

You habitually conflate the two scenarios when they are worlds apart.

First: See above.
Then, to make this clear once again: The Ancient Sith lived in a time where certain abilities, that were completely lost or stuff of legend for later Sith, were pretty much commonly known or available to members of the Sith Lord caste over very low obstacles. The abilities associated with Sith sorcery / Sith alchemy would be the best example. All of the Dark Jedi exiled from Republic space, that later became Sith lords, apparently experimented with altering live forms:

"When a cadre of more ambitious Jedi opened themselves to the dark side, they discovered the Force could be used to bend life itself[...]So envious were the Jedi Knights of our ability to transform creatures into improved manifestations, they made it their ongoing duty to hunt us – the Dark Jedi – wherever we attempted to experiment and practice our knowledge." - Ajunta Pall, The Essential Guide through the Force, p.156

Such knowledge appears to have been commonly available to Ancient Sith Lords, while the new generations had to recover it – and only did so to a certain extend.

I did acknowledge the possibility. But I don't blindly accept that "> years = > mastery" as some predictable formula.

Bane reckons in Path of Destruction that Darth Revan's singular holocron outstripped the libraries available to the Brotherhood of Darkness on Korriban in terms of knowledge. Yet Revan was an extraordinarily young Sith Lord who spent a great deal of time actively consumed with galactic warfare. His "command of the Force" (mastery, not raw power) is periodically referred to as elite in the Revan novel. Yoda studied the Force for nine centuries and yet did not annihilate either Dooku or Palpatine in their duels. Dooku was two decades Palpatine's senior and yet did not question Sidious's mastery and the secrets at his command in Dark Rendezvous.

To suggest that time equates to mastery is simply not supported by canon. Indeed, it contradicts canon on a number of levels.

Is it fun to form arguments out of hasty generalizations, that don't factor the slightest bit of circumstancial information in?

The Brotherhood of Darkness didn't care much for Ancient Sith knowledge and, given only ten years of actual rule, didn't have much time to gather some. Yet Revan, and here the irony is overwhelming considering your former points, stumbled across Malachor V, which was a storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge. And it were parts of that knowledge, which led to Bane's judgement about Revan's holocron. Yet Revan's power and force mastery was nothing compared to that of Vitiate, a fact we have first hand evidence for.
And Yoda was a practioner of the Light Side of the Force, while the Dark Side offers the "quick path to power". I have a vivid recollection of Dooku imagining Yoda as a disciple of the Dark Side. If I'm not mistaken, the Count thought such a being would annihilate Sidious in the blink of an eye. And Vitiate had more time to study the Dark Side than Yoda had to study the Light. I wonder what Dooku would have said about such a being. Likewise Dooku himself didn't study the Dark Side for five decades like Sidious did. He ran across some teachings in his youth, but wasn't introduced into actual Dark Side teachings before the TPM era, so questioning Sidious Dark Side mastery would be somewhat irritating from his point of view.

And I'm not arguing that time equates to mastery. I have suggested that starting from an already formidable knowledge base (which Vitiate demonstrated by the ritual on Nathema), additional centuries of studying the Dark Side might turn up some results "beyond the dreams of any Jedi or Sith", to paraphrase Lord Scourge in one of the videos linked above.

Ultimately, this thread is not about comparing the Emperor with Vitiate. If this debate is to continue, it must be done elsewhere. I've cautioned jadams3928 against going off on tangents, I would be remiss if I did the same thing. This topic is complex enough without a twenty-second discussion introduced.

Nice. Such a statement would have been acceptable as sole answer to my posting. Following complex arguments, it's a hollow excuse for not continuing a debate you know you can't win. If that's your decission, so be it. I've produced my answer to your "points". And to answer the initial question of the thread: Out of the Orders of Jedi and Sith, I can only see rather few (Luke Skywalker, Exar Kun, perhabs Ragnos) standing up to the likes of Vitiate and Sidious. Outside those two orders, one might consider some other beings on the frontier to the realm of nigh godlike entities.

4/4

Vitiate was a prodigy in the use of the dark side. Without formal training, he overpowered a freaking Sith Lord (at the age of ten) and was acknowledge as a Sith Lord by Ragnos at the age of 16, dominating an entire planet

Originally posted by jadams3928
He was acknowledged by Ragnos at 13.

Correct.

No-one would think less of you for not answering all that Tempest. No-one who actually read it all at least.

And this is why folks, Nai is possibly the greatest debater for Star Wars to grace this forum.

@ Nai

I offer myself to you as your apprentice. I hope to learn a thing or two from the (dark side) knowledge that you possess on this subject.

------------------

Also, one important point that people often miss is that Revan's knowledge paved way for the Sith to regain the lost power they once wielded. Sidious is a product of this rediscovery.

Revan, had visited Malachor V, and basked in the wealth of knowledge this planet contained prior to its destruction. Bane's assessment was that Revan's knowledge of dark side surpassed the entirely of the archives stored in Korriban; which is a clear indication of how well-versed ancient Sith were in the dark arts compared to the modern era Sith. If the ancients hadn't been plagued by infighting and civil wars and other shit; these guys would have conquered the Galaxy through brute force and power and possibly other Galaxies.

Another interesting point is that if it weren't for Vitiate converting Revan; the stage set for return of Sith to power in the future would have never materialized.

Star Wars canon is shaping-up in this manner that Sith used to be very powerful and well-versed in the dark arts in ancient times. However, the ancient Sith destroyed themselves with their selfish motives and the vast wealth of knowledge they had amassed was mostly lost or so it was thought. Then after a big break, an intelligent individual (Darth Bane) managed to discover some part of this lost knowledge and this in turn set the stage for Sith to return to power; and this time they struck from within the very Republic, which otherwise always found a way to survive against all forms of external threats.

However, some people are stuck in the old mindset when not much was known and established about the history of Star Wars prior to events of the Phantom Menace.