Registered: May 2005
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No. "Godlike" is hyperbole when speaking about Sidious. Is he immortal ? Nope. Can he do what he wants ? Nope. Is he allmighty and omniscient ? No way. Godlike ? Ups...there you go.
You better shut up since Lucas doesn't care much about the EU according to his own words and he can curbstomp any EU idea when ever he likes to. Not my canon policy - go and complain at LFL.
What impressive things did Sidious and Yoda show until ROTS ? Sidious outduelled Maul who had his ass handed to a Padawan and beside of this did almost nothing. Yoda pwned a few Dark Side of unknown skill and managed to make Dooku run. Ok. Impressive ?
The point is that you don't have any base to compare Vodo, Odan or Ood to Yoda or Sidious in terms of duelling skills or force powers. Yoda was more powerful ok - how much more ? You don't know. So why you come back with the same statement over and over again ?
What is said ? Where is it said ? It's said that Kun could smack Sidious with one back tied on his back and handling his lightsaber with his feet ! Where ? Who cares - it's said. End of story.
And what ? Why should Kun have used the amulet against Vodo whom he clearly wanted to beat in melee combat. Could he have used it ? Yes - as he could use it before, I bet he could have done it.
And I trust what Lucas says since the novel contradicts pretty much every scene of the entire film.
Get yourself a dictionary and have a look at the definition of "always". Can it be that always means "at all times", "invariably", "for all time", "for ever", "at any time" and "at any event" ? Yes ? Have a look at the quote again and tell me what was changed. Not Mace overpowering Sidious - not Sidious trying to destroy Mace - not Anakin cutting of Mace hand. So - that things stayed the same.
Bye bye argument.
See above and STFU - you're getting annoying with your attempts to bullshit your way through with your complete and utter incompetence when it comes to accepting Lucas own words. I don't have to know what he thinks because he tells us all in the commentary and you refuse it. Wow...genious.
Yes. The guy was just hit by the shockwave of a supernova and stayed in kind of comatose state for 4,000 years - he's in top condition of course isn't he. And then Sedriss obliterates himself when attempting to overcome Ood. Nice action. Did Kun kill himself when trying to defeat Odan ? No...what a pity.
Dude. He grabs his saber with both hands and keeps doing wide swings. Can you tell me which form matches this description. It's surely not Makashi (one handed, trying to use only a small amount of energy, fencing) and it's surely not Jar'kai (two sabers being used) - so he used a form which wasn't Jar'kai or Makashi - meaning he is shown to use three different forms in the comics.
And because of the possibility to get blocked from the force he wrote into his book that he's unable to control the power of the force storm ?
Hello. It was known that Kun was defeated on Yavin, right ? You really think that the Sith Empire under Revan who plundered all this stuff, the New Sith Empire as well as virtually every interested Dark Sider AND the people who plundered the planet and sold the stuff in the KotoR games would leave anything there that Sidious could have found 4,000 years later ?
The point is if he didn't have taken over Anakin and have went onto a trial they would have identified him as being a Sith Lord named Darth Sidious - who the CIS leaders would immediatly recognize as being the person behind the scenes in the blockade over Naboo as well as the person that initiated the entire war. How could the Senate or any court deny those facts ?
And then he tried to kill an enemy who didn't have a weapon and was faking to be without power. So Mace was about to kill a helpless opponent, right which directly contradicts your own idea.
That was happening several years before ROTS and the loss of basically his entire body parts didn't make Vader less dangerous - did it ? Do you think people could hold Vader in a prison ?
I don't see a point why several hundret Jedi shouldn't be able to keep Sidious under control - especially with Yoda coming back to Coruscant.
So he has Sidious on the neck ? Why - because Sidious LETS him do this. You really think he would have gotten into this situation without any reason when he wouldn't archieve anything by getting killed there ? This either isn't gambling with his life or it's gambling with his life in an idiotic way.
The point is that he had his "next body" right in front of them so he didn't have any reason to care about his present body any longer. It's like telling something he should watch his movements because they could kill him and then telling him he would be "reborn" in a stronger, better, younger and more powerful body 2 seconds after his death. I would be damn fast in trying to get killed there if I were Sidious.
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Titanic? Incredible? Godlike, now? Is he immortal? His spirit is, it's still around, just trapped. Can he do what he wants? Please, many gods through many mythologies couldn't. Almighty and omniscient? Plenty of gods weren't. Godlike is resembling the nature of God or a god.
Which is great, considering he generally, y'know, doesn't. And when he does, they rework it.
Yoda's ability to fight off the dark force of the planet Dagobah? Sidious's ability to cloak himself from an entire order? Sidious summoning up the spirits of the Dark Lords? Absence of proof is proof of absence now, Nai? Yoda was more powerful. Yoda was probably THE best duelist the Jedi order ever produced. What part of 'strongest ever' is inconclusive? If he's THE strongest and the strongest force of light up til that time, it makes firm sense that he's better than most if not everyone else. And since Sidious is able to fight him evenly or nearly so and equal him in power, logic continues.
That's great, nai. Stop pretending your opinion means anything: canons ays Yoda knew every technique of the light side.
And the novel is G canon and approved of, contributed to and reviewed by Lucas, so, well...hm.
Look up the definition of the word 'change'. since the scene always start...wait, did he add an 'ed'? Ok, then.
See above and STFU and stop pretending you know what goes on in GL's head. In fact, show me where commentaries fit into canon since you're quick to ignore them when I use them.
He says he's older and wiser, and a master of the force. And he and Sedriss obliterate one another. In fact, Ood pretty much destroys himself to destroy Sedriss by drawing energy from the, y'know, planet's core.
We have STILLS, you can't tell me how wide he's swinging, so all we have is an assumption he uses Djem So.
Every time Sidious used the force storm, he was able to control it until that one event, so it stands to reason he developed more control or the cases were special.
Since it said Sidious found it, then...no. And I don't recall anything saying how the True Sith Emprie or the New Sith Empire ever set foot on Yavin 4, considering it'd been a ghost world for ages when Ikrit arrived.
Right, the CIS leaders were gonna recognize Sidious? The CIS leaders lack credibility and so do the already massively distrusted Jedi.
Helpless? Sidious had just shown he was dangerous with or without a weapon and was too dangerous to be left alive.
Unlike Kar, Vader got replacements. Hundreds of Jedi would be able to contain Palpatine...the Republic and the entire galaxy may be a little peeved though and since this is a blatant act of treachery and war, the Jedi would be facing extinction.
Exactly, Sidious lets him because Sidious is generally sure what's going to happen. But say Grievous's hatred for Palpatine overrides his common sense like he did for the Huk. It's a what if, but if Grievous' hand slipped, Palp's neck would break and he'd have no time to react.
The problem is what if someone intercepted him? Which is what happened, despite the fact everyone thought Brand was dead by then
Perhaps I should clarify on a few other things:
To quote Yoda: "To make a Jedi fall, one cannot, beyond even Sidious this is. Chose this, Skywalker did."
However, it's made clear that Sidious knew exactly what'd happen, that he could count on Anakin. In Anakin's own thoughts, he was there to save Sidious's life, not betray his friends, but when he saw Sidious in danger, it was them or Padme and for Anakin? No choice.
However, as for Palpatine and Anakin, the lightsaber fight I can concede, the novelization goes both ways, with Palp's dropping of guard and speed, but it also brings the idea that due to a careful assault from Mace, he slips lightly, and Mace takes advantage. Mace is also one of the best saber duelists the galaxy has ever seen, that he'd best Sidious for that time, isn't inconceivable, though it's also worth noting Palpatine fights much better when it comes to Yoda.
Sidious's attack, designed to destroy him or not, is curtailed when Sidious does have the energy to continue and Mace is not effortlessly holding it off, it's taking everything he has. And he feels something: Palpatine isn't angry, he's not even scared. Why? He trusts Anakin. In fact, when Palpatine's assault stops, Mace is aching all over and doubts he can hold the lightning for much longer.
Could be that he attempted to destroy Mace there and decided on a different strategy. The idea with his face is unsupported because we have seen
A. his clones wither the same way
B. A technique called force mask that can be removed with lightning
C. Noone else suffers this disfigurement. Ever. The worst is dark, charred skin.
D. We see Palpatine shift between faces in one short story.
E. It's the 'strain of using the power' that causes his face to change, not having it blasted back in his face.
In another note, you were right about Kun not using Makashi, this was apparently a falsehood, or a retcon. Yes, he definitely used Jar'krai, possibly form V
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Last edited by Lightsnake on Jun 11th, 2006 at 02:11 AM
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And now please give me the usual "nature" of "God" or "a god". The perspective is what counts here. For a normal human, every Jedi / Sith is sort of "godlike" or "titanic" or "incredible" because of their "supernatural" abilities. From the POV of a Jedi, Sidious would just be exceptional powerful force user and Yoda would see him as his equal (at best). So these descriptions are relatives depending on the position of the person who gives them.
Now we can just stay at this "god" example. What is the better indicator of the power of a single god. When a human calls him "godlike" or when another "godlike" being calls the god "frightening" ?
Lucas doesn't change his opinion ? There is a particular situation in the ROTS commentary (I don't know which scene that was) were some of the commentators is talking about Lucas working philosophy. It's stated that Lucas comes up with a "basic idea" and then the idea is developed through the entire film making process and even further after that. So Lucas generally changes his ideas and you can find dozens of examples for this in this forum alone when he gives three different statements on a single topic.
You are still not using "logic". Yoda can be the most powerful Jedi ever as much as he likes - that still doesn't give any idea how much more powerful he is compared to the people Kun faced. You just assume that he must be far more powerful and that's it. And wow...Sidious could cloak himself from the entire order. Nice for him. Kun walked around on Ossus, an entire planet filled with Jedi, without getting noticed, until the point where he faces Odan. Then he killed the guy and "recruited" 20 Jedi on the sight where he commited a murder just seconds before.
Did you see Sidious walking into the Jedi temple, slaying a Council Member and then start recruiting people for the Dark Side ? I didn't.
Yes: And there is not a single source where Yoda is using all his knowledge. He knows Dark Side techniques according to canon material. Does that mean he would use force lightning ? No. If Yoda doesn't use certain abilities to overcome the greatest enemy of the Jedi in his era (Sidious) - why would he use them against Kun ?
Was Kit Fisto beheaded by Sidious ? Novel says yes, movie says no. Is the novel right or the movie ?
Why should I look up the definition of the word "change" which doesn't even appear in Lucas comment. You should look up the definition of the word "added". If I "add" a pencil to a drawer of my desk - will that change all other pencils in it, the drawer itself and my desk ? Of course not. But mystically an addition to a scene changes the entire scene - even when Lucas say that certain things always were and stayed like he had them in the scene before. Did Anakin not cut off Mace's hand because of the addition ? No. But of course all other things must have changed, right...because of your personal opinion.
Where did you ever use them ? Usually you come up with sourcebooks, fallible in universe sources and personal interpretation of god-knows-who, as long as it just fits your opinion. And I'm still not pretending that I know what goes on in Lucas head. I just listen to what he says - you don't.
The same energy he's drawing from the planets core to avoid getting slaughtered by Kun on the spot ("Combat is not my skill, Exar Kun") and protect the lightsabers ? I wonder why he didn't destroy Kun if he could have done it.
Is the concept of afterimages beyond you ? When we see afterimages going from behind his head in a nice curve to the ground before him I can tell you he was swinging wide. And you can argue this like you want: He isn't using Makashi or Jar'Kai when he uses a single lightsaber with both hands -> three different styles.
Yes. Because he used the force storm so often, right ? Especially to ravage the fabric of space-time, correct ? Oh no. He just uses it as a sort of "wormhole" or "transport system" to get Skywalker to Byss which is far smaller then the thing he conjures up later. And because he has so much control over the ability and is able to use it like he wants he still comes up with "superweapons" like Worlddevastators and the Galaxy Gun.
Ever heared about Yavin Station and Suvam Tan ? He and his Trandoshan "friends" obviously plundered on Yavin 4 as he sells some lightsaber crystals found on the planet to Revan (KotoR) - and since he almost spent 3 decades on the space station he had plenty of time to gather stuff on Yavin 4. Then the New Sith Empire - those people basically controlled most of the Galaxy and you really think they wouldn't pay a visit to one of the most important "Sith Worlds" were Sadow and Exar Kun lived - just about 40,000 lightyears away from the core ?
I don't think that Anakin, who Sidious - according to your beloved ROTS novel - turned into the Republics foremost war hero and who killed one of the two CIS main figures (Dooku) would be "distrusted". Or Obi-Wan who just outduelled the other CIS main character. Or Padme who had quite some influence in the Senate. Or the politicians of Naboo who did see Sidious giving some orders to the Neimodians / Maul on the planet. And so on...
Yes. Because everyone will notice it since so many people had access to the temple, not to mention that, without Sidious in position, the Jedi still had complete control over the Republics entire military forces - and more then one thousand senators on their side. Not to mention all the pretty evidence against Sidious.
Do you understand the difference between "knowing what will happen next" and "gamble with your life" ? If you know what will happen next you can't gamble any longer because you know that you will win anyways. This might be true for Anakin cutting Mace's hand off - but not for Mace disarming him instead of causing some serious damage.
Do you really think Sidious thought that anybody would be able to intercept him there ?
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The point is that time was working in favor for Sidious. Anakin had the vision that told him Padme would die at the birth of her children. Technically Sidious could have blackmailed Anakin by saying "You help me or I don't give you access to the powers and your beloved Padme will die at the day she gives birth to the children".
He doesn't fight better against Yoda, the fight does just look faster because Yoda moves much faster compared to Mace and Sidious has to react faster. Yoda keeps him at the defence even more then Mace does - you don't see him attacking Yoda often - much less forcing him back.
In the novel ? He doesn't have much problems in the movie after the lightning wave. Of course it takes Mace entire power to hold his lightsaber there but while the novel says that the lightsaber was "moving closer to Mace's face" (or something like that) the movie shows Mace moving his lightsaber closer to Sidious and he doesn't look exhausted when Sidious stopped - in contrary to Sidious who needs a good cosmetic surgeon at that point.
It "could be" ? It's pretty obvious because:
a) Lucas says so
b) Sidious tells Mace to "die"
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First off, the ancient Sith weren't described as Gods or godlike, they were treated as gods by the primitive Sith peoples...hell, Golden Age practically states the more Sith you are, the more your power's diluted from its pure Jediness.
Well, Sidious pretty much DID blackmail Anakin...he pretty much told him: "Me or them...or, more bluntly: Me or Padme, kid." Sidious had been manipulating Anakin for years. Hell, on the commentary Lucas states Anakin didn't know Sidious would kill Mace and he'd 'crossed the point of no return'...it broke him.
When they're dueling, it seems an equal exchange, especially when the pods rise up, they're meeting attack for attack at least for that time.
Yeah, but at first, Mace is being forced back before he moves forward...and we know Mace doesn't admit exhaustion very often, case in point, Shatterpoint where he's staying strong and still has a hole in his gut. My point is, it wasn't effortless for Mace and he was rather drained when the salvo finished.
Yeah, but Sidious was being described as godlike in terms of his own power in the darkside, Luke was described as pretty much the same only with the light. And then there's the incredible power, the titanic power, etc. I'd say the narrarator saying his power was godlike, means something.
Ossus, at the time, was in a state of panic and Kun was noticeably not standing right next to Yoda. That's used as a credential to Sidious's extreme power in the movies, too. And Kun only managed to recruit those kids-minus Crado- because of that 'Sith in the holocron' thing and because of them buying a-you have to admit this-
the weakest coverup story since Barry Bonds. But seriously, if we discount KJA's opinion that Kun is one of the two strongest Sith ever, how much stronger are the Sith than the Jedi?
Possibly because Yoda would be going all out here. Against Sidious, he rid himself of Jedi restraint, same as Mace. And perhaps Yoda doesn't use said abilities because he knows it'd be a waste of energy as Sidious's mastery is level with him and they can spend time deflecting one another's attacks forever.
In Stover's defense, if something like a thought or an instance doesn't contradict then it tends to be valid. And in his defense, that was in the script when stover wrote it.
Good question, I'm still wondering why Kun didn't destroy Ood on the spot. When he turns into the tree, the energy sends Kun and the Massassi flying through the air. And Ood had just been gouged across the back by a Massassi, I doubt he was at his best.
The first time Sidious uses the force storm, it tears apart the surface of a planet. He uses it once more on one attack force and again on the fleet at the end. And the galaxy Gun and Devastators were described as 'amusing', by him. Also, more practical since not many knew he was a Sith Lord still, and he can't be everywhere in the galaxy...besides, it's a bit more fear inspiring with that weaponry.
Once again, don't ask me how: It's the same as Lumiya finding a well of Sith knowledge on Ziost. Kun apparently hid the best stuff away and Sidious found it. He even has a mural on the war in his office. And the Sith Empire, the NSE, didn't control the core.
It's still their word against the Chancellor's and all he has to say is 'it's a Jedi plot', which a lot of people still believed, considering Dooku was once a Jedi.
Most of the senators were calling Bail a traitor for opposing giving more power to Palpatine. The grand army was loyal to the top figures so the Jedi couldn't control them if they were branded as traitors.
Impossible to see, the future is. You can almost know what's gonna happen, but even if you do, there's still the what if.
There was always the chance of Luke doing something. IE: Another lightshow.
In other news: Darth Plagueis was a MUUN! I refuse to accept this!
I don't think I can take a Muun Sith Lord seriously.
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Last edited by Lightsnake on Jun 11th, 2006 at 02:58 PM
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Yes. It means that their power was godlike from the perspective of the narrator. And of course their power was "godlike" - I don't want to argue that. The point is that this pretty much fits the description of every notable Jedi or Sith. Kun after killing Odan is called the "darkest power in the Galaxy" by the narrator which means that at this pointed he exceeded anything else considering the Dark Side. And now think about how many "Dark Side" powers did exist at this time. The spirits of the Ancients on Korriban, the "True Sith" if they are existing. The Star Forge. All kind of Dark Side creatures - but the "darkest power in the Galaxy" is Kun.
Err ? No...Ossus wasn't in a state of panic. Kun infiltrated the planet on his own. He first goes and talks to some of the Jedi (including Cay, Crado and Oss) and tells them how he defeated Freedon Nadd. Then he walks into the great library, listens to Odan teaching Nomi and then kills Odan.
No, you are wrong. Right after he killed Odan at least 5 people come walking in. Crado say that they have been looking for him and he got himself some students - the Jedi walking behind him says that they are with him. And after this he's handing them the cover up story. So this story didn't influence their decission which was already made before they found Kun.
You are making the same mistake over and over again, Lightsnake. You're taking your own opinion as a base for an argument and threat it as a fact. The only "fact" here is that there is no way to compare the people Kun faced or Kun himself to Sidious or Yoda. We only know that Yoda is stronger then Vodo (for example) - by what margin ? Unknown. And does it even matter as we see Kun waltzing over all kind of opponent with considerable ease including Odan who the narrator states to be "one of the oldest and wisest" and "most powerful" Jedi around ?
If he didn't went all out against Sidious he will never "go all out" against anybody else. And Yoda moved into the fight with the intention to destroy / kill Sidious which is pretty obvious.
And no - Sidious force powers at this point weren't a match for Yoda's. Look at the point at the very end of their fight. Yoda is standing outside of the pod, Sidious in the middle - then Sidious hands him all he can and Yoda throws it right back in his face. The script tells us that it "looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed" - in the movie Sidious "victory smile" turns into some nice grimasse of total horror and you can see that he is suddenly leaning back. Yoda overpowered him at this point but had the bad luck to be such a small and light weight creature.
Yes. I might have been in the script - but the script changed and then in the movie we see things not being mentioned in the script. The point is that the movie is the "final version" of Lucas ideas (unless he himself comes up with a different interpretation later) and so in a discussion the films are giving the "final word". Not the interpretation of another person based on an earlier version of Lucas vision.
Kun gives the explanation himself: a) Lack of time. b) He already had what he wanted. Why would he try to overcome a millenia old Jedi who's drawing power from the planet itself when he has nothing to win and has a supernova wave moving towards the planet ?
Compare the sizes of those storms. The first two he's using are quite some levels smaller then the last one he conjured.
The best stuff would have been his lightsaber and his Sith amulets and he did wear all that stuff during the ritual meaning those things were either destroyed or they simply "dropped on the spot". Considering that the merchant in KotoR sells lightsaber crystals that were possibly used by Kun himself (Mantle of the Force, Guardian of the Force) somebody seems to have found his lightsaber there which technically should have been lying right next to his amulets and all other stuff he was carrying with him.
And the NSE didn't control the entire core worlds but they did control some important planets and part of the Ancient Sith Empire - and Yavin 4 is 40,000 lightyears away from the core between former Sith space and Republic space so it was very likely in the NSE's territory.
Dooku became a Sith and the Jedi killed them - who would believe something like "It was a Jedi plot" considering that they lost quite massive amounts of people during the war.
And what would they call Padme for basically giving Palpatine his title as Supreme Chancellor ? And the army's "top figures" ? Excuse me - but aside from Palpatine only Jedi did control those forces. With him out of the way the army would have been under control of the Council.
LMAO !
Obi-Wan: Now...where were we ? (to San Hill) Oh yes. You were surrending.
San Hill: No ! No ! No ! YOU have lost. DIE ! *executes Obi-Wan and Clones with force lightning*
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Granted, however, TOTJ is apparently written from a historical perspective. However, this can also apply to 'frightening' power, as well.
Oh, I thought you meant when the planet was being evacuated during the supernova detail. At that point, though, Kun's only been showing himself to Padawans and young knights who had no reason to doubt him. Odan instantly knew he was a darksider....this may be due to the sith holocron's reaction, but still.
I know, I'm saying Kun's cover up story was incredibly weak to say the least. "Ummm...yes, Odan just up and died!"
While true though this is, the facts still remain that Yoda is the strongest Jedi who ever lived up to ROTS...we do know that Yoda's stronger than the same Jedi who wiped out the Ancient Sith, scattered the legions of Lettow and he's had just as much time as any Dark sider to come into his power. The question I'm asking is, if we disregard the diea of Kun being one of the two strongest Sith, how much stronger are the Sith than the Jedi if the strongest Jedi isn't able to defeat the possibly not strongest Sith?
He did go all out against Sidious, there wasn't any 'Jedi restraint.' If you want an out of universe explanation it's that Lucas is firmly unaware of most of these powers, same as why Palpatine assaults Luke with a saber, why Beldorian forces Leia into a saber duel, why Vodo and Kun only resort to blade to staff, why Kun doesn't use his amulet or force techniques on Ulic...best in universe explanation I can come up with is both opponents were either consantly busied by the saber fighting and knew that a force attack would be useless against the other, or the pod tossing kept both busy...and Sidious's powers were a match for Yoda, Yoda got the better of him at one point there, but they're almost direct equals with Yoda better by maybe a hair, if that.
The novelization is still a G-canon source, however, and since explanations given don't contradict the movies, they could still slide.
It wouldn't be that much harder to fire a blast to Ood's head or attempt a quick slash at him. Kun had quite some time before the supernova actually hit. Could be he didn't know how much time, this I could buy.
Yeah, but at the end, Sidious never called upon the darkside as he did with the last storm...however, he was controlling them fine until the blocked from the force detail.
That and whatever he'd taken from Korriban, Yavin and Ossus. It was important enough for Kun to hide in the most secret chambers, just like the mutated Massassi Night Beast who wasn't found until Luke's time. I'm just saying what happened, not my justification.
In the Republic series, one senator outright accuses the Jedi of masterminding the Clone Wars...quite a few people didn't trust or like the Jedi at all.
Padme was also quite the important figure and still very trusted. However, there's still just words against Palpatine's who controlled the senate and the courts.
And geez, why would Plagueis turn to the dark side? Lost his life savings? His stocks fell out?
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The point is we don't know the perspective of the narrator in the DE comics but we do know what the person that called Ragnos "frightening" was able to do on her own.
All those people standing in front of him (at least Oss and Cay) have witnessed the Dark Side on Onderon - but they aren't able to recognize him as a Dark Jedi. Odan doesn't sense Kun's presence when he's standing only metres away - he even wonders why the holocron is glowing and then Kun reveals his position to him basically as Odan told Nomi that the holocron could only be used by a Sith Lord and then Kun steps in and says the holocron is calling for his real owner.
I'm asking myself if Kun manipulated the force on the place somehow. In Shadowhunter Obi-Wan can "sense" that a crime has happened almost instantly when he arrives at certain locations hours after the crime was commited - and those Jedi come walking into a room where one of there greatest masters was just murdered by a Sith Lord and sense...nothing ?
The point is that we don't see any of the Ancients going down against a single Jedi in a fair fight. Kreia who was basically worshipping the ancients was able to instakill Council members (even three at once). The female Sith Thon was facing on Ambria annihilated the life of the entire planet with a single "force pulse". But the "highest point" of those people was the Ancient Sith Empire under Ragnos - not the Legions of Lettow or anything that came after the Ancients.
Ragnos reign marks the high point of Sith Magic, Sith alchemy - all of that stuff.
Yet we have Kun pretty much destroying all Jedi Masters he is facing - in Odan's case somebody who did fight the "remaining Sith Lords" of the Ancient Sith Empire. And this only leaves two possible conclusions:
a) Odan and his fellows did never beat a single Sith Lord in a one on one situation - hence he fails against Kun being weaker then them.
b) Kun was more powerful then those Sith Lords who were left after Sadow's escape to Yavin 4
The insight that I think we can gain here is the following: Either none of the Jedi was able to go toe to toe with the Sith in their "golden age" and then it won't matter if Yoda is more powerful then them since it leaves the possibility that he can't do it either. Or they could do it but then Kun must be more powerful then the Sith Lords that were left which leaves the possibility for him being more powerful then Yoda.
Talking in general the Sith were always outnumbered by the Jedi and thus had to be more powerful personally to compensate the lack of numbers.
You really think that somebody who lives by a certain code for more then 8 centuries suddenly abandons it ? He still reacts instead of taking direct actions. He walks into Sidious office and instead of flooring him directly he first gives Sidious the opportunity to blast him with his lightning. The scene with the pods - again he only reacts and in their force battle he still uses "defensive" force powers instead of smacking Sidious somehow - or even try to do so.
In fact Yoda's most aggressive actions don't even happen in the duel with Sidious. He most aggressive sword use is when he beheads the two Clone Troopers on Kashyyyk and his most aggressive force action is the saber throw which he uses while he and Obi-Wan are fighting their way into the Jedi Temple.
Read the canon policy. G-Canon is only what comes directly from Lucas (his words, the movies). The novels and audio dramas are considered to be "absolute canon" because they "spin off from Lucas original work".
Ood after his "transformation" was clearly not something that somebody could destroy with a "quick action". Even if Kun would have (successfully) attempted to do so: As far as I remember the lightsabers were burried "under" Ood so - he would have had to kill Ood and then cut or fire his way through Ood's entire remains to get to the lightsabers.
Since this is all happening in the EU the source with the latest statements about the things on Yavin 4 would be right, or not ? At least it should be. And since Leland Chee was involved in the KotoR games (afaik) I think it's quite save to say that most of Kun's artifacts (probably not what Sadow left behind) was taken from the planet before Sidious arrived there.
And technically Kun didn't have a reason to hide the stuff (since he didn't thought about the Jedi ever attacking or even finding Yavin 4) and in case of the things he stole from Ossus he didn't even have time to hide them - if the Jedi did arrive only "hours" after he left Ossus like you said.
This was before Dooku and Grievious getting killed by - Jedi, or not ? And one Senator out of...millions ? And think of the CIS motivation. In AotC "thousands" of worlds are joining the CIS every day because "a Sith Lord had control over the Senate". Urm...do you think those people would have any problems when said Sith Lord's identity is revealed and they have the "guilty" person.
How much control a politician can have against thousands of Senators (those who had signed the petitition against the war + those who joined the CIS) and the CIS leaders themselves who represented quite powerful corporations (Banking Clan, Techno Union, Trade Federation) ?
Didn't you listen to Yoda ? "Bad management leads to fear of slumps in the market, slumps in the market lead to the anger about losing money, anger about losing money leads to hating the bad management...hating the bad management is a path to the Dark Side. Nobody hates me. When for 900 years manager of the Jedi Corporation you are, learned to keep the stupid shareholders in line you will have !"
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Regardless though, given the narrarator's descriptions of power for Palpatine, it fits that by DE, his power is titanic, incredible, godlike, etc.
None of said young Jedi have displayed potential for sensing the Dark Side, however, though I agree with you on the Odan point. Still, Dooku uses it as a point in the movie: One so powerful, not even Yoda would know him if he stood right next to him.
It's possible, but I doubt it. With Obi-wan, the crime involved a Jedi and Obi-wan is already quite more experienced than the other young padawans, especially given Obi-wan's experiences with Xanatos and his intense talent for empathy.
I'd contend that with the fact that we know Memit killed one of them in a duel on Coruscant, and if Thon didn't kill the female Sith who did?-and how she even pulled that off is debateable, Bane was also able to eradicate surface life on Ruusan, albeit with a ritual set up, but the power was him. And people like Naga would contend that statement that their highest point was under Ragnos.
Since four Jedi were able to hold the Sith off on the world, and were able to kill at least two Sith Lords- we see Memit fighting one and another Jedi over the corpse of another...and once more, we have to wonder: How much more powerful ARE these sith than the Jedi? You once said the Sith had more experience and time to master the dark side, but Yoda's had more time than about three Sith lords together...there's no reason to assume the Ancient Sith are so incredibly powerful that they can't be beaten mano a mano by people like Yoda who's reached levels in the lightside most can only dream of and knows enough to discount the Dark Side's power to his own. While the Sith as an organization might be stronger, the strongest warrior of the light with his power will firmly surpass the warrior of the darkness and Yoda's pretty much said that himself. It's ludicrous to assume the Sith are so powerful that the Ancients would just continuously trounce people like Yoda, Mace and Anakin? And, if Yoda's life is truly in danger, he may indeed decide to go all out. Yoda's got...little hesitance over actually killing people when it comes to it. Yoda's still the top duelist the Jedi order's pretty much ever had and he can counter anything thrown at him...he's pretty much the most powerful force of light to that point. There may be a possibility for said Sith and the like being stronger, but it's an extremely slim possibility and for all we know, given Yoda's incredible credentials and resume, he could face down any Sith and win if the terrain was on his side, given how he can block, direct and take care of any dark side technique thrown at him. Moreover, none of THOSE Jedi might've been able to fight the GA Sith toe to toe...but what of the Golden Age of the Jedi's Jedi?
Another factor for Yoda and Sids is that Sids is well versed in Jedi arts himself and could easily circumvent of block what Yoda tried on him and vice versa
Yes, but the novelization could be taken as G as most of its information came from Lucas and the script he provided to Stover.
Well, still, an angry Darksider could be spiteful enough to give Ood a blast rather than leave and actually admit defeat. No way around it: Ood had defeated Exar.
I don't think Leland had a direct hand in KOTOR, and the explanation is simple: Noone found Kun's own secret stash, Sidious did...there's been no retcon and the explanation is right there. So, when the Jedi arrive, Kun could have hid what he wanted in the interim before he started the ritual, especially as he had time to send Kalgrath to the isolation chamber and he remained totally undiscovered for millenia.
Still, I think Mace said it best: He controlled the senate, almost totally.
I'm sorry, I still can't get over Plagueis being a Muun...I have to admit, though...it's better than Darth Krayt. And seriously, Nai, would you, in your wildest imaginations ever perceived Plagueis as San Hill's capatalist Sith cousin?
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Last edited by Lightsnake on Jun 11th, 2006 at 10:17 PM
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Who cares about the powerlevel of the DE version when we're talking about the ROTS version here ? And since he himself declares that his powers did increase from ROTJ to DE (logically from ROTS to ROTJ too) he wasn't titanic, incredible and godlike before, right ?
"Potential for sensing the Dark Side" ? Is that something special ? Luke was able to do so without training and before being confronted with the Dark Side in ESB - but people who visited a place dominated by the Dark Side (Onderon) and did see Sith Magicians in action can't sense it ?
And yes...Sidious was powerful enough to cloud his force presence using the Dark Side. Who says that Kun can't stand next to Yoda without being known as the Sith Lord he is ?
Err...the murder of a Jedi Master also involves a Jedi...the one who was killed in this case. And that was done using the force. They should have sensed something - yet they didn't even sense the death of Odan.
We are not talking about Sith Lords in the meaning of "Sith Council Members" here as the only Sith Council member getting killed by Jedi was Shar Dakhan and that wasn't a "fair fight".
Those Lords getting killed (if that were Lords) weren't member of the Council making them less powerful then the Council Members who weren't less powerful then Sadow and Kressh - when they were both less powerful then Ragnos.
What is "debateable" here ? It's stated that she used a pulse of Dark Side energy to exterminate all live on the planet when Thon confronted her - and only Thon survived it. Obviously she didn't have the time to prepare a nice ritual on the spot.
a) Sadow isn't able to contradict the omniscient narrator
b) Historically seen the Sith Empire did cease to exist after Ragnos time and was less powerful before his time meaning this was there golden Age, no matter how somebody in universe views it.
c) Even Sadow only speaks about a "stagnation" in the expansion of the Empire where the "Golden Age" more likely refers to their knowledge or personal power.
You can't conclude anything out of this situation. How powerful where the Jedi compared to other Jedi - how powerful where the Sith Lords compared to the other Sith Lords ? Obviously the Jedi weren't able to fight Sadow's illusions (destroying them...discovering them) which puts Sadow himself quite some levels above them in terms of force powers. Even Battle Meditation failed against the onslaught of the Sith forces. And judging by this at least Sadow - possibly even Shar Dakhan - were more powerful then those Jedi.
The point is that Yoda's power was just enough to stalemate the weakest known version of Sidious. And at this point you might ask yourself the following question: If he can only stalemate or slightly overpower a 60 or 65 year old Sith Lord - how would he be able to overcome people who had centuries to study and master the Dark Side ?
Of course Kun didn't have those time periods but he was a prodigy to a certain extend and he did waltz over people with 600 and 1000 years of Jedi training under their belt and some experience with fighting Dark Siders with considerable ease.
What the hell would Anakin do against a century old Ancient Sith Lord when he wasn't able to overcome a Jedi in his mid-30s ? And excuse me: Yoda and Mace had considerable problems with defeating ROTS Sidious - how would they be able to beat DE Sidious on their own ? Or people who are equaly or even more powerful ? Nihilus ? The Ancient Sith ?
Lightsnake...you are again working with assumptions that don't fit. Since when can Yoda counter any Dark Side attack ? If I might quote Traya: "There are force techniques against which there is no defence" - techniques coming from the Ancient Sith. Techniques able to obliterate an entire planet of force users plus a great part of the existing Jedi - with a single force attack. How would Yoda "block" something like that, or "throw it back" or even survive it ? We see Nihilus using some stuff like that where Kreia puts the Ancient Sith above him. We see Kaan detonating the force bomb and only Bane and his followers surviving because he used a Dark Side technique to minimize his presence in the force (as far as I remeber). Yoda ? What can he do there ? Use the Dark Side ?
You mean well versed in Jedi Arts like the descendants of Jedi (the ancient Sith) or "fallen Jedi" that did have great powers themselves like Exar Kun ? May I remind you that Kun outrightly resisted the "wall of light" attack by Odan - who just gave us the statement that this is the "most powerful lightside technique" that exists ?
Still the novel can't overwrite Lucas own statements or the movie. The canon policy even states that the films contain the "essence of SW" (or something like that).
An "angry" Darksider, yes. Kun is able to control his anger. In fact you don't see him "angry" in many situations. He's not a hothead like Ulic exactly. And sorry...a "we don't have time to waste" doesn't equal "admit defeat". If some weak dumbass like Sedriss can go toe to toe with Ood I don't think that Exar Kun should have any problems there if he wanted to fight...
Yes. He was undiscovered until 1 ABY - I wonder how Sidious could walk around on the planet without waking him up especially when he guarded things that Kun left behind and that Sidious should have taken.
He didn't control the Coporations and he had several thousand Senators against him already.
Why not...there isn't a big difference between wanting money and wanting power.
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Debateable as his powers are already top of the line from Bane's order by TPM. By ROTS? He'd been studying the Jedi and Sith arts for decades, he'd visited sites across the galaxy on some pretense or another, he'd gathered hundreds to thousands of Sith artifacts discreetly and he'd even summoned up ancient spirits of the Dark Side to take their power and knowledge and learn from them.
Luke was already remarkably gifted, even when he was young, I don't think Kun's spent a good portion of his life practicing Quey'Tek, which allowed Palpatine to cloak himself from numerous masters, the strongest Masters and extend that to entire structures and other people...and Kun's tattoo is kind of a dead give away to experienced masters. And even if we don't know 'how much' stronger, the facts remain that Yoda was stronger, in the golden age of the JEdi when they were at their strongest.
I refute that point: We see two other Sith lords besides Dakhan on Coruscant: One fighting Memit and one as a corpse. The one fighting Memit was certainly high up, even given from his style of dress and riding at the head of the army, mounted waving his sword.
She'd already been experimenting with the Dark Side on Ambria for some time...and we don't know if she was a member of the species or not.
When'd the Narrarator say definitively that the Empire was at its total high peak? Sadow was right, too: The Empire had without doubt stagnated for centuries. And the New Sith Empire is mentioned to have exceeded the Empires of old after Ruin formed it.
Above them? Sadow was a good illusionist, especially when he's sitting in a room with force enhancing crystals all around him, that doesn't mean he'd be able to take Memit in a straight fight. The reason BM failed was because Massassi were single minded, not Sith powers. Once more: These Sith were being stopped and pushed back by four Jedi, and two of them were killed by Jedi.
Weakest known? By ROTS, there werea few who already considered Sidious the strongest Sith ever? Once more, you're basing this on things by age alone and it is not always the end all be all. Young Quinlan Vos killed a millenia old dark jedi, Leia killed a guy who had centuries of studying the Dark Side...Kol Skywalker butchered the Legacy Sith except for Nihl who got in a cheap shot, Murtauggh finished off the Underlord, that millenia of studying the darkside didn't help Rivan... Yoda's had much more time to master the light side and he mastered it indeed. And considering Yoda's the strongest force of light by that time, period...why is 'centuries studying the Darkside' suddenly the end all be all? Why is it inconceivable that knowledge is gained over time by Jedi and Sith alike, when they form new ages?
why the HELL are the Sith suddenly held higher than the strongest Jedi master?
Ok, take Padme out of the equation and add someone who HASN'T trained and fought with Anakin the entire span of his life. And likely, Mace is the better swordsman than the Ancients and capable of hurling their own darkness in their face with Vaapad. Age isn't everything, so 'centuries studying the dark side' isn't helping them, as shown very clearly. Palpatine and Luke can rend apart star ships with their minds, Yoda can move them himself...If Ludo were capable of this, he wouldn't have died, especially as the ship was dead by the time it slammed into him. If Shar Dakhan could regulate his breathing, he'd also be alive...and we see the corpse of one Sith and Memit dueling one Sith Lord evenly. He's wearing the golden armor, the horned helm, the cape, the swords we see the others wielding and we see him leading the assault on the galactic capital. And if that Sith on Ambria is an ancient Sith, Thon killed her. And KJA also seems to consider Palpatine and Kun the strongest Sith ever, I managed to get two more emails from him a while back.
Since Yoda knows every defense against dark side techniques that exist? And Kreia never once uses Nihilius in conjunction witht eh Ancient Sith, she doesn't even consider him human and by Yoda's time, after a thousand brutal years of Sith wars, you think new techniques and knowledge wouldn't be around? And Bane survived the Thought Bomb because he was out of range, no more, no less.
The 'wall of light' from someone not as strong as Mace or Yoda, and Yoda wouldn't use a wall of light: He'd simply attack with his own skills. And I don't recall the wall of light being described as the most powerful lightside technique...compared to electric judgement, Morichro, Malacia, or any of the other thousand techniques Yoda knows, and considering Yoda's incredible swordsman prowess, it need not come to that. And Yoda's also managed to contain dark side presences on planets himself, and deal with tons in his nine hundred years of studying the lightside.
I'd say the 'dark rage in Kun's heart' perpetually driving him on is enough.
Oh, Ood: I have defeated Exar Kun, I am satisfied. And Sedriss had been personally trained by Palpatine himself, he was hardly weak. Or stupid.
The point I'm trying to make is I feel it a bit ridiculous to automatically put Ancient Sith above Yoda or anyone else on that matter just on the pretext that they studied the dark Side for centuries...if that's the criteria, Darth Rivan would be the strongest Sith.
You mean like how Ikrit uncovered Kun's greatest alchemical creation and attempted to destroy it? Like how the Jedi slaughtered Kun's creatures on Yavin without waking him? By ROTS, Sidious found what Kun'd hidden on Yavin.And Kalgrath was just intended to be a 'last surprise'...a guard was never mentioned.
Jun 10th, 2006 09:53 PM
