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Originally posted by Darth Revan33
What idiot started this whole "Vader would win if he was trying" crap? In the book and in the movie, Vader IS trying but he can't keep up with Luke. Lucas says that Luke is (very least) as strong as Vader is in ROTJ. Luke wanted to fight even less than Vader did, and Vader still got owned. Why do I say that? Look at ESB. Luke got owned in that one and at that time it's true, Vader wasn't trying to kill him. Even IF that were true in ROTJ why wouldn't he have whooped Luke the same way as ESB? Instead he got whooped himself. Watch the fight again. Luke is clearly superior to Vader. Yet you guys still think Vader wanted to die at the hands of his son so that Luke could take his spot, even though Luke wasn't even trying to kill him. When he did start trying, it took him 40 seconds to overpower that walking garbage disposal.

Now in response to Janus' arguments. They are equal in many areas of the Force, though Luke demonstrates more power. Now Obi has more experience, but Luke is a quicker learner, and learned from Ben and Yoda as their only student.

Onto the book part. I didn't realize this the first time I looked through it but I was looking throught the special edition copy, it's 181 pages and James Kahn wrote it. It's a maroonish color and on the front is the weird looking picture for the original "A new hope" with Luke holding the lightsaber up etc. Now this is exactly what Vader thinks "He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel- not to mention the boy's timing which was honed to a thought's-breadth." Then it goes on to say Vader was feeling humiliation, surprise, and fear. Later it says "the boy was clever indeed- Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now" when he's searching for Luke. Now when Luke gets angry it says "The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's." Next as the Emperor starts to electrocute Luke, he is thinking "But if it was Force generated, it could be Force repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially he was successful-the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls."

Lastly, about Luke's fighting. Yes in the movies it looks pretty bad, but it's still good enough to defeat Vader. Obi's wasn't enought to defeat Maul. (lightsaber combat, not the whole fight)

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Originally posted by Darth_Janus

Do you doubt that Ben could not mind trick Jabba?

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Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Phew. You're stubborn. Let me try to persuade you again...

First off, Vader is stronger than Luke physically. He has more experience. He has better knowledge of the Force. He was Luke's superior in about every way except Luke had a better tan and could tie his boot straps himself.

Luke is no Jedi. He is a farm boy a few years into a real world, and with less than a year of Jedi training. And I mean real training. There is a difference between someone who picks up a gun and is a weekend warrior and someone who is a professional soldier. BIG difference. Also, where is your cited proof that Luke demonstrates more power than Obi-Wan? Where? What did he do in the trilogy that I have seen a dozen times that was more impressive than Obi-Wan? Or old Ben? Hell.

Secondly, the movies and the books aren't on the same level of authenticity. Movie overrules even novelisations when it comes down to what's what regarding the movie characters. Soooo... When comparing and using the two, we have to go with the movie version. Thus Luke DIDN'T reflect the lightning for a second or two. And that also means we don't know what Vader was thinking about during the fight between him and his son in ROTJ, other than "I hope I didn't leave the iron on" and "Damn it's hard to breath and get hit like a pinata while backpeddling." While Luke pwned his pops for plotline neccessity, I don't think he truly beat him 100% and certainly wasn't his better.

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Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Me stubborn? Round forty....

lol... Let's leave this debate on the table and let the others pick at the scraps. Lucas has a habit of saying stuff about Luke and Anakin that just throw logical argument to the wind. There is a distinctive difference between a 25 year old padawan coming into being a knight (Who is Obi, no less!) and a 20 something year old farmboy turned half trained padawan. And Vader does have the edge on Luke in experience and power, if not speed and good lungs.