Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
And I tell you AGAIN: Vader is NOT Anakin. Cutting the legs of was cutting of part of his force powers. That is what Lucas said. Yes. Anakin in one part at full potential might have outmatched anybody in history. Vader does not. Palpatine does not. And Palpatine is not part of any prophecy.
Vader could have never done the things the ancient Sith Lords have. He could have if he ever reached his full potential. He did not. And exactly that is the point. And Exar Kun would have had to fight thousand of Jedi at once. Throw Vader into an arena with Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan and he will get killed within seconds. He is toast. He was killing Jedi one by one. Everyone single Jedi Master could have done this. Let him go up against 100 or 1000 of Jedi ALONE and he is toast...like anyone else would be.
There is realy NO (and realy NO) logic in your arguments. Palpatine and Vader (and I mention that again for you: Vader is NOT as gifted with the force like original Anakin is) are no match for any of the ancient Sith Lords. It is like simple like that.
And please give me the original source of Lucas saying the ESB duel is only "slightly one-sided". If he said that he is the worst director ever according to what we get to see in ESB.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
You are either really biased even for a newb, or you don't know who Revan is. Most likely it's both. Here's a little info on Lord Revan.
Revan was always powerful. Even as a padawan, his teachers were sure that he would become a champion of the Force. His master Kreia said "Revan was power. Staring at him was like staring into the heart of the Force.” Revan had a lust for knowledge, seeking out every piece of information he could about the Jedi.
Revan soon discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge (Malachor V). Only Revan’s immensely strong will kept him from immediately falling to the dark side. Revan plundered these tombs and relics, learning of the location and true nature of Korriban. He learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings. Malachor V fueled Revan’s tremendous dark side power, making him even stronger. Revan was a brilliant military strategist, and 1/3 of the Republic’s army was under Revan’s direct command. It was only because of him that the Republic defeated the Mandalorians. Somewhere around this time, Revan killed Mandalore and Yusanis, the most famous Echani warrior (and the handmaiden’s father.)
Revan then located the Star Forge and was powerful enough to control it without being consumed. Revan soon turned on the Republic he just fought for and nearly conquered the galaxy. Countless Jedi knights fell in battle and many more swore allegiance to the new Dark Lord of the Sith. For two years the Sith were all but invincible. Only Bastila’s Battle meditation kept the Sith from total triumph. Darth Revan then lost his memories and his connection to the Force when Darth Malak betrayed him and fired upon his ship. 1 year later, with relatively little Jedi training, Revan returned to Korriban and plundered the tombs of Marka Ragnos, Ajunta Pall, Tulak Hord, and Naga Sadow, gaining new Sith artifacts (such as Tulak Hord’s Sith Holocron) and fueling his new power even further. Revan even destroyed Ajunta Pall’s spirit.
Upon returning to the dark side, Revan traveled to the Star Forge, fighting his way through dozens of dark Jedi to find his ex-apprentice Darth Malak. At this point, Revan’s power was even greater than when he was the Dark Lord of the Sith during his first reign. Malak didn’t even think it was possible for him to have gotten stronger since his first reign, but he was. Revan then killed Malak and retook control of the Star Forge, wiping out the Republic and nearly exterminating the last of the Jedi. Soon after, Revan recovered his memories and all the knowledge he plundered while on Malachor V, enhancing his power even further. Darth Revan returned to Malachor V before heading into the unknown regions to fight the ancient Sith empire. Charismatic and powerful, we still have yet to see Darth Revan’s full abilities since he was never defeated.
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Thanks to Janus for the great Sig.
Okay, for starters I'll address your last statement. The scene where he says that is in the extra features disk of the Star Wars Trilogy DVD's, in the special on lightsabers. Those are his words. Look it up. And if you think he's the worst director ever I am wondering why you are even on this forum.
Now I'll address your arguments backwards. Logic is taking certain given premises and using some basic rules to come to a conclusion. My premise, which is that Anakin is the Chosen One, is certainly true. Now we can add to that the fact that he has a higher midichlorian count than any Jedi ever. this doesn't mean that he is the most powerful with the force, simply the most in touch with it. Anakin also kills off all the Jedi. No other Sith or Dark Jedi was ever capable of doing this-Lord Kaan came close but the Jedi order survived. Put these three things together and you can deduce that he is more powerful than any Jedi or Sith ever was. That was one of the main points of the prequels as well, which you seemed to have somehow missed. I don't dispute the fact that he lost some ability to sense the force after his limbs were chopped off. I agree with that. He also becomes more experienced though. There are no holes and no logical fallacies in any of my arguments. Your argument that it "is as simple as that" IS however a logical fallacy, or rather is not even an argument at all but rather simply a statement that you are right and I'm wrong.
Now for the next point. "Let him go up against 100 or 1000 of Jedi ALONE and he is toast." Watch Episode III. It might change your mind. Rather than being attacked by the Jedi, as Kun was (and don't give me that shit about clones-they're no match for the jedi alone and Kun had a planet Massassi warriors; anakin didn't have that many with him anyway), anakin marches right into the jedi temple and wipes them out. "Throw Vader into an arena with Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan and he will get killed within seconds." While I would dispute the "within seconds" part of this, he would, no doubt die. But these again are three of the most powerful Jedi who ever lived, and most important. (this could be a good thread if you put the emperor in this mix, on vader's side. We know that Obi wan and Yoda combined couldn't beat them, but with Mace Windu thrown in? Perhaps). Vader IS Anakin, but slightly less powerful (which doesn't mean much because he was already way the hell ahead of everyone save for a select few), and more experienced. There. It's final. And the point of all this: even ESB luke could beat Revan. I'm not going to reitirate all the reasons why.
side note: Kaan destroyed the army of light, but he used a thought bomb, and he was weak anyway. The Jedi Order itself stood strong after the seventh battle of Ruusan.
I know quite well who Revan is. He is a brilliant military strategist. Relatively he was extremely strong in the force. Yoda would have no trouble beating him. Mace Windu would have no trouble beating him. Obi-Wan would have no trouble beating him. The Emperor would have no trouble beating him. Darth Vader would have no trouble beating him. ESB Luke would have some trouble but eventually prevail. This is simple. Again, Revan used the Star Forge, which above someone said Vader and the Emperor relied on the Death Star. Yes, Revan brought the Republic to its knees, as did almost every great Sith Lord of the past. The only ones to ever actually go beyond bringing them to their knees were an army-sized group of Sith during the New Sith War until the Jedi came along and drove them out of the galaxy, and two, count 'em, two Sith: Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious. That is all. Revan was not even as powerful as Naga Sadow probably (though Sadow was pretty powerful)
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
I will do that when I have time. If this should be a "slightly one-sided" duel he simply did crappy work with it. Vader could have killed Luke in a dozen situations there.
You logical failure is that you compare Chosen One Anakin to Darth Vader. Darth Vader is by far not as powerful as Anakin is. According to Lucas he has 80 % of Palpatines powers. And Palpatine might be as powerful as Yoda. And Yoda is surely clases above both Vader and Palpatine when it comes to lightsaber fighting. Mace Windu also as we can see him beat Sidous in RotS.
So what do you want to tell me. That Vader has to be the greatest Sith Lord because he WAS (not IS) the Chosen One from the prophecy ?
Sure he killed many Jedi one by one but as I said: Every single Jedi Council Member could have done this so that proves exactly nothing.
I did watch Episode III. What does Anakin do ? Killing some Jedi that were totaly suprised that he was turning against them ? If you are the greatest fighter of all times and you are thrusting me 100 % and I would fire you a bullet in the back of you head. Would I be the greatest fighter of all times then because I killed you ?
And if the clone warriors were no match for the Jedi you surely can explain to me how all the Jedi Master got killed by clone warriors. And you can see that 4 of them have enough firepower to kill Ki-Adi-Mundi who is facing their attack. That guy could have taken down the Jedi Temple without Anakin by outnumbering the Jedi.
Vader is by far not Anakin and he is FAR less powerful. 80 % of Palpatine / Yoda is almost nothing to the power that Anakin had or could have had (he is above Yoda in force potential). And ESB Luke is not Vader.
Revan is almost far above everyone except a hypothetical full potential Anakin and NJO Luke and this two are far above what Vader was or what ESB Luke was.
Revan would kill Vader.
Revan would kill ESB Luke.
He would surely get killed by full potential Anakin or NJO Luke but not Vader and ESB Luke. Each of them against Revan would be like one 13 year old padawan trying to kill Yoda.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
I'm really getting tired of this. Naga Sadow was chased off by the Jedi and hid in isolation for centuries. Exar Kun was chased off by the Jedi and had to turn himself into a force ghost to escape. Darth Vader attacked the Jedi in the temple, killing many of them at a time as we saw in the hologram in Ep. III, and later he hunted down and killed all the Jedi. Revan is probably not as powerful as either Naga Sadow or Exar Kun. Palpatine, as you stated, could be considered more powerful than Vader. He's certainly more experienced. Anakin was the Chosen one. Vader was the Sith'ari, both are the same person unless you believe Obi-Wan's point-of-view thing in ROTJ.
Palpatine might be as powerful as Yoda? Again, did you even watch Episode III? Were you half asleep? And it is not a logical failure to compare Darth Vader to the Chosen One! He is the Chosen One! That's the point of all of Star Wars in cinema so far! My God!
As for this: "And if the clone warriors were no match for the Jedi you surely can explain to me how all the Jedi Master got killed by clone warriors. And you can see that 4 of them have enough firepower to kill Ki-Adi-Mundi who is facing their attack. That guy could have taken down the Jedi Temple without Anakin by outnumbering the Jedi." Certainly you must at least concede there was more than four of them. And you forget, there's not just one clone army, there's also the droid army. Can a Jedi kill two armies, if taken totally by suprise, as you yourself stated (many didn't even have a chance to turn on a lightsaber). Now Anakin's raid on the temple may have caught the Jedi off balance, but he still killed many of them. And no, obviously a clone army is no match for the Jedi temple. George Lucas's son demonstrated that even if the temple were full of lowly padawans, they would kill all the clones with very few casualties. I thought the Jedi Masters died too quickly, but anyway they were taken by suprise and they had two armies against them. And ESB Luke would easily defeat Revan. No effort required.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Yeah. I hope you are getting tired of this.
a)
Darth Vader in RotS did a surprise attack. Got it ? What you can see on the hologram in RotS is that he killed Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti and killed some Padawans. What a hero...
b)
Revan is probably more powerful than Sadow and Exar Kun. He killed almost the entire KOTOR Jedi Order and did become MORE powerful after doing so.
c)
Palpatine is not "considered" to be more powerful than past RotS Vader. Lucas himself says that he is only 80 % of Palpatine. And past RotS Vader is not any longer the Chosen One. Yeah he might be the Sith'ari as the Sith'ari is said to end the Sith order. But prophecy does mean exactly nothing when you compare the power of some people.
Yeah what ? Yoda counters everything Palpatine throws at him. Palpatine tries to run away because he FEARS a duel with Yoda. Give them a battle in some sort arena and Yoda will turn Palpatine into a peace of meat. No doubt here.
Man. Are you that stupid ?
Vader after RotS is not even half of the Chosen One. Get it. Palpatine says that he might become more powerful than Yoda and Palpatine together in RotS so he drops from 200 % Palpatine to 80 % Palpatine. So what do you want ? He loses more than half of his force potential with his legs cut off and nearly his entire body burned. That is simply a fact. He is not the greatest Sith Lord of all time he is not on one level with Yoda and Palpatine.
Yeah. Right. And a paramecium would outsmart you. No effort required.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Vader "might" be the Sith'ari? Jesus. As for Yoda, why didn't he try to face palpatine again? ("failed I have" that's why. The book explains it more.) He did suprise the Jedi. But as you can see in the hologram, their lightsabers were ignited. They weren't all defenseless, obviously. Revan may be more powerful than Kun (he certainly caused more damage) but not Sadow. Sadow nearly commanded the Sith Empire, which rivaled the Republic at its height. Vader's Empire went way beyond the Republic. The only reason the Rebellion won was because of Luke. Luke could beat Revan by ESB. Nuff said.
"Vader after RotS is not even half of the Chosen One." This is obviously a point that doesn't require any further argument. Any child who has ever seen the end of Return of the Jedi knows he's wrong.
"Yeah. Right. And a paramecium would outsmart you. No effort required." Nice, you have really proven me wrong there. How logical. You have just committed one of the most elementary logical fallacies, and I believe I have won the argument. I hope you're done...
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
I thought you have watched EP III. Did you watch a different movie or have you also seen Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan thinking that the prophecies might have been missunderstood ?
Revan had more Sith artifacts, more knowledge, more fighting experience than any Sith Lord before him. And by FAR more than Sidious/Vader. You know that he is considered to be the greatest Sith Lord ever, do you ?
Cool. So you say that Lucas - the creator of this whole story - is wrong because you have to be right. Nice argument. Yeah. Great. You totaly got me there. lmao.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Okay. first of all you talked about George Lucas. He has stated very clearly (need a source-the Vanity Fair article) that Anakin is the Chosen One of ancient legend, and that he was created by the Force. What would be the point of these movies if this wasn't the case. So I say once more you don't know jack about star wars. My turn to demand a source. Where does it say he's the greatest Sith Lord ever? Yay he has more artifacts. How wonderful. "Cool. So you say that Lucas-the creator of this whole story-is wrong because you have to be right." No, I'm saying you're wrong. Lucas himself has stated that Vader is the Chosen One. Again, that's the whole point of Star Wars, although I think you may have missed it. I'm not contradicting him, I'm saying his central characters are more important and more powerful than some over-hyped Sith Lord in some video game. You're contradicting him by claiming Anakin isn't the Chosen one. What Lucas said, and what I have never argued against, is that Anakin became less powerful after his limbs were cut off. That's perfectly true. What does that have to do with him beating Revan? Nothing. He could still beat Revan, as could Luke by ESB.
Registered: May 2005
Location: A galaxy far, far away....
There is no need for hostility. These responses are more thoughtful than most of the ones I've ever seen. The insight of all of the posters here is clearly extremely acute and powerful. Therefore, let's agree that everyone has made excellent contributions and admit that both of you, Darth Crazo and Nai Fohl, have made several excellent points worthy of recognition.
I hope that we can all share mutual feelings of civility and friendship.
amen dipsit. I almost slipped a couple of times because of how agitated Fohl was making me, but I tried to keep it relatively civil. Thanks a bunch for your words of wisdom.
first off, I am not sure, but Lucas may have been being sarcastic in the ESB fight, that is the only thing I can think of.
second, why are we debating if ESB Luke can kill Revan (he cannot, but that is beside the point), this is NJO Luke vs Revan, and unfortunally this seems to have been forgotten. Unless the thread has been changed and I am mistaked. If it is NJO Luke vs Revan, Revan looses, however it would be a good fight.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
May 31st, 2005 11:25 PM
