ehhh yes. He HAS done them. So disqualifying them because you dont like it and because he is written like an idiot five seconds after he gains "understanding" doesnt mean he CANT do them.
As soon as Flash grabs him, Iceman is instantly protected by an invisible layer of energy provided by the SF. It protects its user from his/her environment when moving at extreme speeds. Basically, a bubble around Iceman. Meaning, that Iceman couldn't just leave his body and spread his consciousness elsewhere. And ESPECIALLY in drastically miniscule amount of time he'll even have to do such a thing. Before he realizes it, he would already be in the Speed Force. Stuck.
Problem is, we don't know EXACTLY how the speedforce works. Or at least I don't. Enlighten me: has it ever held a consciousness prisoner?
I mean, stopping something from affecting the environment is cool, however, Iceman can...kinda 'teleport' out of it. He doesn't have to pass through it, or travel through it. He can just instantly move to some other water on the planet.
Though I don't know if he is fast enough, considering the Flash's speed. If we assume that Iceman even has the opportunity for a single THOUGHT throughout the entire fight, I think the odds are in his favor.
It is assumed that both combatants have a basic knowledge of their competition, a smart iceman would, almost certainly, not want to be in a physically manipulatable form.
That's assuming he doesn't even START out in a favorable form. Why does he HAVE to be starting in a 'construct' of ice. Why not just start in his vapor form? Or his dispersed form? Hm....
Either way, if he has to start in a physical form, and has no time for a single, simple, thought, then flash wins.
However, if he can start in a favorable position, OR has time for one thought, then I see the odds in Iceman's favor.
Did you know Flash doesn't even require a physical form? Flash can transform into a being entirely comprised of Speed Force energy.
Here's a quick win:
Flash states the Speed Formula. Time freezes. Iceman is time-frozen lump of gas. Flash kills each molecule one by one per picosecond.
Iceman cannot win against a fully non PIS/CIS equipped Flash. He's just got to many damn powers. Hell, the guy even make vibrational contructs made of hyperdimensional gels....
So now Iceman gets prep? Already being in another form different from his usual starting form (without the thread-starter's say-so) is considered prep.
Anyway. Iceman can't just teleport his consciousness without any sort of water between his path. The reason he can do it through air is because moisture is in the air. Ambient moisture. If he is cut off from ambient moisture, he has no means of transporting his consciousness.
Shhhh, you are inhibiting my ability to effectively debate. :-P.
Is iceman not allowed to do ANYTHING while the Flash is stating the speed formula? I know flash could even SPEAK at incredible speeds, but still. All it takes is a whim, and Iceman exists everywhere.
The Flash would then have to destroy every molecule of water in the WORLD (and you never mentioned how the Flash will destroy matter...unless you just mean speed force dumps. Can the flash somehow generate anti-matter now? Matter can't be created or destroyed, after all....), including the molecules residing inside the Flash's own body (Yeah, he could just turn to energy, no more water, fine), and all the water in the innocent human's bodies, AND the water inside all of his loved ones' bodies. If flash was blood lusted, and willing to do ANYTHING, then yeah....he would be able to dump every single molecule of water, and every single person into the speed force.
But, following this, the entire world is destroyed, having no more water in the atmosphere, or in the biosphere. The earth is dead. Not a single human remains alive, and even if the Flash could be sustained by speed force energy, he is going to live a sad life till he dies.
:-P.
Seriously, though, I'm gonna admit it; I'm really reaching. I doubt this strategy would work, as I believe that the Flash is too fast for it to. Meh. Not going to stop me from at least trying.
It's because of ambient moisture? Or so you assume. Got a scan saying that?
Anyways, read my above post. I'm reaching, and I know it. You know it. Draco knows it. Regardless, debating is fun, interesting, and it isn't going to stop me from TRYING to present an argument. I often debate for the under-dog.
Woah, I think we may have gotten the wrong impressions here. I'm not angry or anything like that. If I come off as a dick at times, I'm really not trying. I greatly enjoy debating and I very much enjoy debating with people like you, people who know what they're talking about and explain their points thoroughly.
I don't have a scan saying it. But think about it? If he didn't need moisture to transport his consciousness, why did he need to use a river to travel some vast distance (I forgot exactly where he was going, but it was far away)? If he didn't need moisture in contact with other moisture in order to teleport, then he wouldn't have needed he river. Know what I'm saying?
I didn't mean to seem like I was offended, I didn't think your posts came off as angry, or dickish. Don't sweat it, man.
Anywho, maybe he does need ambient moisture, but maybe not. He may need a river to travel a vast distance, because he doesn't have automatic cosmic awareness of all moisture in the universe. However, perhaps if something is in the line of sight, it would be trivial to just make himself....be that moisture. We can't really be for certain, though...so I guess me arguing the point has no basis, .
I just hope you're understanding what I mean is all.
It's kinda like a trail of gunpowder. The spark needs to get from one side of the trail to the end of it. It can't just jump over the gunpowder, but rather it has to travel through it in order to reach its destination. Even if it's just the tiniest amount, as long all of it is touching.
Poor analogy I know, but it was the best I could come up with on such short notice.
Yes, I know EXACTLY what you mean. You are arguing he needs a medium to travel through, much like sound.
However, I am arguing that 'magical' mutant powers (magical by our standards, not comic standards) may not necessarily follow perfect logic, and may NOT need a medium. Obviously, though, it's kinda like nightcrawler. If he doesn't know exactly where a piece of moisture is, he can't 'teleport' there. But, if some is in the line of sight, it is trivial to do so.
If Flash states the speed formula to where time stops for him, how does he kill every molecule one by one? Why is Iceman now a lump of gas? Im confused.
Just as Flash fully non PIS'd/CIS'd out, Bobby can do many things as well. He can create dupes of himself to fight Wally while his conscious is elsewhere(Like Black Tom's tree from). Bobby can also actually effect the flow of Wallys blood. Flash may have limited control over his blood level as well, but i dont think it would override Bobby's control.
In this fight, after Flash destroys Icemans form which would most likely happen, Flash isnt aware of Bobbys abilities while shatered and would be open of a counter attack.
Somehow a physical form entirely comprised of Speed Force energy just rings as more dangerous.
Vibrational explosions. It's basically a wave of vibrations that rips molecules apart. He can also alter the molecular frequency of Bobby's molecular form causing it to literally fall apart into sparse atoms. Firestorm isn't the only one who can alter matter.
Yeah. But while Bobby is limited to his abilities over water, a truely all-out Flash is much more damn powerful and has gajillion amount of powers that don't make sense, either has the word "Force" or "vibrations" in it and breaks every law of physics there is...
Flash will destroy them all in the first picosecond...
Again, you're assuming that Flash will slow down enough for Bobby to do anything to Flash much less control his blood flow. THINK. How is Bobby gonna know where the Flash is? Flash will literally be invisible. Bobby won't know what the hell is hitting him or destroying his dupes. Flash's bodily functions are all moving at the same speed he runs. That's lightspeed heartbeats and lightspeed blood flow.
Bobby won't be able to stop Flash's blood flow because:
A) Flash is too damn fast. He'll be Tahiti, China, Japan and Iceland. At the same time.
B) Bobby can't think faster than the Flash. The thought of controlling Flash's blood will take as long as the extended versions of the LOTRS back to back to the Flash.
C) You can't freeze something moving at lightspeed. His mass will be intolerable...
In the first picosecond of a picosecond...
Common knowledge rule.
Flash isn't allowed to know that Iceman can do but you also think Bobby can perceive a living ray of light moving around the planet. Or when time is frozen?
A physical form of energy seems more dangerous than a non-physical form whos conscious can be anywhere in the air even at other distant locations? To each their own i guess.
Bobby was once disintegrated and reforemed back. Who has Flash made fall apart into atoms? Icemans body can be totaly destroyed but Flash cannot effect his mind.
And they get formed instantly. Something Flash has trouble keeping up with unless he gets a running start or help.
Flash would slow doen considering hed think the fight was over after the firsat shater. Its a highly probable fact unstead of an assumption. Why would Flash be invisible after he thinks hes defeated his foe? Youre assuming Flash will continue to run around and be a blur which isnt likely. Flash saying Quick formula and going lightspeed isnt in character for him at the beginning of a fight. Especially against a non-speedster.
A.) Flash would be in Tahiti, China, Japan and Iceland at the same time doing what? Hes not fighting, so it that self battle field removal? Are you saying that between each punch hes going to another country to get ready to throw another and hed be to fast for Iceman to even form an attack? Since when does Flash move at lightspeed instantly?
B.) Bobby freezing Flash's bloodflow doesnt take much concentration. All thats applied is the intensity of the cold. He slowly froze it in Emmas brain to get the answers he wanted from her. She didnt even sense it coming from him. If Iceman want s FLash laid out, it would be flash-freezed which is much quicker than what he didn to Emma.
C.) True you probably couldnt freeze something moving at lightspeed. Although IF Flash is moving that fast he risks going into the speedforce and being trapped there. And once again, the initial hit and after the initial hit, you make it seem as if Flash is still running at 99.9% the speed of light? Thats certainly not the case unless he says Quicks formula which would probably take as much time as a flash-freeze.
And then what? Flash freeze. Shattering Bobby's form isnt the end of the fight.
Yes common knowledge rule, but they are also fighting in character without PIC/CIS i assume.
Im not saying Bobby can percieve a living ray of light moving around the planet, but do you think Flash is starting the fight as a living ray of light that runs around the planet to make a first attack? Naw. Flash-freeze appears to be instant as well ya know.
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Jul 27th, 2006 04:35 PM
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