Hmmm. Im going to have to agree with Archangelysses. Ill try not to have a biased opinion when I argue this though...
If Traya can pull off instakill then Dooku loses. Its as simple as that. But, if Dooku can get into a lightsaber duel he would win with relative ease. Dooku has mastered, perfected and modified Makashi - the style that is bred for duelling. On top of this he has been trained by both Yoda and Sidious - two of the greatest force wielders of all time. He has also fought Yoda on two occasions and met him blow for blow and managed to esape with his life both times.
Force power is harder to compare. What we do know is that Dooku has extensive knowledge of both sides of the force and again has been trained by Yoda and Sidious, two of the greatest force wielders of all time. He can not only shoot lightning with his hands but block it with his hands also. He has effortlessly ripped down solid concrete rooves, metal generators and steel balconies - and that is only from the movies. And on top of all this, his fighting style leaves one hand free at all times. So while fighting he always has an available hand to use the force.
With all this in mind Dooku will win as long as Traya doesnt pull of her instakill ability. But I think Dooku is smart enough to force a lightsaber duel before she will be able to do that.
Everyone is making a big deal of Traya's Instakill ability, which considering she was part of the Sith prior to Sidious, then it is very probable and extremely likely that Sidious knew all about this power, Considering that Sidious was the end game of the Sith plan for revenge since Darth Bane.
If Sidious knew about it, then it is quite probable that Tyranus would know about it. I personally believe that since that power existed then and was knew, by the time it comes to ROTS both the Jedi and the Sith are more than aware of it and would have prepared a defence against it.
Tyranus would Pwn Traya, in lightsaber combat and also in force power.
People please remember that "Dooku" is a Dark Lord of the Sith and therefore should be called by his proper name LORD TYRANUS. We don't see anyone calling Vader Anakin now do we
No, that speculation. Traya's attack doesn't seem to be a conventional force drain insamuch as she gives an entire speech on how she's going to make them see Malachor V through the eyes of the Exile.
Coupled with the entire fact that Traya makes it clear that the technique that they learned at Malachor cannot be learnt, and the fact that she states that it's a technique "from which there is no defence"; I don't think Sidious would have known how to have utilised it.
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As above. It's made clear that you can't learn it.
Speculation, non? We don't have any canonical information on the extent of Kreia's lightsabre abilities.
It's also fairly silly to go state that Tyranus will take down Traya in force combat, when we've seen Traya demonstrate quite potent abilities.
I'm not downplaying Dooku, far from it. He was a beast in the force, and a very potent force user. But we've seen Kreia demonstrate quite potent powers too. The technique that she uses on the Jedi Council? Considering that Traya makes it clear that there's no defense against the technique, I'm doubtful as to whether or not he could survive it.
Then we have the fact that she's demonstrated fairly powerful force pushes, as seen at the rebuilt enclave, where she effectively demolishes the three Jedi Masters. We've got Vrook, the de facto leader of the order, Kavar; the weapon master and Zez Kai-Ell. She floors them without the least sign of exertion, and then floor Vrook again!
All in all, it'll be a nice and furious fight. I can see Traya coming out victorious eventually.
Yes, she learned the power due to the destruction of Malachor V, however since using this attack, which at the time was new and unheard of, which is fair for her to say then that there is no defence, would it not be reasonable to suggest that the Jedi would have then spent time researching the cause, ability, and how to defend against this.
We are talking the passage of 1000 years or so, science and tech and force understanding would have undergone radical changes in that period. Things previously thought impossible would/could have been realised.
I honestly don't think that the Jedi would have not researched this more fully to protect themselves from it happening again. (IF they ever give us a KOTOR III we may get more info on this)
Also considering that Sidious was a major history buff when it came to Sith artefact, technology, alchemy and events, it is more than reasonable to believe that he would have researched into this. Sidious figured out how to create force storms, then it's feasible (but not proveable) that he may also have come to understand the ability and how to manage it.
Apart from really this one unstoppable power (At the time only - as we have no definitive proof that KOTOR II and ROTS that a defence was not realised) Kreia/Traya did not display any other uber force power.
It's a fair idea, but it's still speculation. There's no elaboration on the idea in canon sources, and it's effectively your opinion on the matter; which no matter how well informed or sound, doesn't count.
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Again, speculation.
Again, speculation. Indeed, whilst KotOR III might elaborate on it; until then, we're in the dark.
I shouldn't think so. Just because he worked out how to use force storms, doesn't mean that he'll be able to find out about the abilities ins and outs. It is - regrettably - speculation.
Not uber? Did my eyes decieve me when I saw her floor, Kavar, Vrook - someone who was essentially the de facto leader (!) -, and Zez Ki-Ell?
Or did my mind play tricks on me when Kreia effectively clouded the mind of Micel to the point where he didn't know that Kreia was on board the Ebon Hawk? Did you miss those cutscenes where she toyed with him?
Or perhaps we can look to the cut content? Where she positively butchers Visas, Mical - or Brianna -, Mira and Atton? Perhaps I lost my sight when I saw fourteen Sith drop to the ground *dead* around her after a brief hiatus of a few seconds and a blackout?
She has displayed quite admirable ability with the force, and she is capable of going head to head with Tyranus.
Last edited by Swirly Girl on Jul 30th, 2006 at 07:20 PM
Agreed it is speculation, which is what quite a lot of the debates are.
Yes she dropped sith assassins, and force swept 3 jedi masters prior to the life/force/instakill. We know that Tyranus also eliminated several Jedi during the clone wars. One of them was Master Sifo Dyas. But that is beside the point.
The sith assassins (I don't recall there being any definitive proof of how powerful they were) could have been a pushover or not - again I know Speculation (Saving you the time of pointing it out)
Clouding the minds of the companions, for her age and experience should not have been too difficult - we know when she was Kreia that she had access to the Jedi Library at the time to learn the techniques.
But as always this entire thread is speculation. IMO Traya would beat Darth Maul, but and it is only my deduction based on the information available that Tyranus would have won the fight with her. Albeit not without difficulty
But to establish a position on whether or not character x is superior to character y, we need to back our opinions up with facts.
If we don't have facts - or canonical observations in the SW mythos - we can't make informed and correct decisions on the power held by the characters in question.
Indeed. But that is besides the point. Whilst Tyranus may have defeated Jedi Masters before - he did pretty much K.O Sora Bulq with a single lightning strain -, will he be able to take down Traya; who has done the same?
That's a good point. We don't know how powerful they were, so I'll leave that out of my arguments from now on.
That's non sequitur. Coleman Trebor had access to the libraries, but he was gunned down by Jango Fett.
Whether or not she had access to the archives is a moot point. The fact is, she learnt the power and used it to a fair degree of adeptness.
That's like somehow trying to diminish Sidious or Yoda because they had access to collective Sith (or Jedi) knowledge.
It's not so much as where you get the power from, as how you use it. And Traya used it fairly effectively.
No, the thread is based on providing factual basis for statements.
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Statements like that neither provide proof for why Dooku would defeat Traya, let alone pwn her.
Please, lay down some reasons that have factual grounding; or there's no purpose in debating whatsoever.
I haven't read the terms of this fight and perhaps I should.. In lightsaber combat the most Traya has shown was the 3 sabers against the exile. She does not however, specialize in saber combat, so in that area Dooku has her. On the other hand, she is superior to Dooku in force knowledge. This has been proven from her dropping sith assassins(again, obviously push overs or not), to dropping Jedi Masters. Her knowledge in the force far exceeds that of Dooku's. Yes I realize Dooku had Adas' holocron I believe, but I have yet to see him possess superior force skills/ancient sith techniques.
We know nothing about her lightsabre abilities. It's pretty silly to make remarks on how powerful she is in combat with a lightsabre, considering that we have no canon information on her skills with the weapon.
That's my point. We know nothing about her saber abilities, we know about Dooku's. We know she was a superior force user, so you're just going to say that because we know nothing about Traya we can't use logical deduction to see who's superior?
I believe that Traya's super-Force drain and her considerable Force powers would be enough to overcome Count Dooku in an all-out fight. However, on the subject of their respective lightsaber skills, I'd put Dooku above her in that area alone.
He's got 70+ years of Makashi dueling experience and is a considerable Force user himself.
No, I'm saying that considering the fact that Kreia currently has no sources for her combat abilities, it's silly to speculate on how good she'll be in combat.
Which is why sentences like "z0mg d00kU w1ll pWn Kr31a!!111 1n c0m8at!" just don't make sense.
Well, in all fairness, we have few sources for any KotoR character, and yet several of us argue that most of them are superior to the PT Jedi (which is the "golden age" for lightsaber skills, according to George Lucas).
If we wanted to go on justsheer sources, then we could not accurately put Darth Revan on par with any of the PT boys, though I believe he's on their level (at least).
Jul 29th, 2006 09:17 PM
