Re: Re: Phoenix Force/First Fallen/James Braddock vs Mad JJ/Fury/Eternity
Based on feats alone and the opinion of reputable sources Jaspers would take it.
Just because Fury defeated Jaspers and its your opinion that Jaspers can defeat the Force, doesnt mean that Fury could therefore defeat the Phoenix Force. Thats elementary level logic. Classic Emma Frost could take out Colossus, Colossus could take out a Sentinel, does that therefore mean that Classic Emma Frost could take out a Sentinel?
Jaspers under-estimated the Fury and was toying with him. Despite all his power he was limited by his human imagination and human experience. Instead of attacking Fury with his reality warping abilities thereby ensuring a victory, Jaspers merely used his abilities on himself to shapeshift into various animalistic forms and crudely fought the Fury hand to hand. Fury of course could withstand this sort of physical assault and it gave it a chance to formulate a strategy to take Jaspers out, which he did by teleporting Jaspers outside of reality where he was powerless.
Given that we know the scope of Jaspers abilities and we have witnessed this power, we know he never fought to his full potential against the Fury, therefore Fury defeating Jaspers, does NOT mean that Fury could therefore defeat any and everything YOU think Jaspers could defeat.
The Phoenix Force could easily disperse Fury at a sub atomic level or drain him of energy and the Fury could never kill the Phoenix Force. Its immortal, indestructible, mutable energy by canon. Shatter it, disperse it, absorb it for your own uses and re-channel it and it will still be alive and kicking.
Theres nothing Fury could do to it. Hes not fighting an avatar who he could temporarily dispose of by destroying the physicality, hes fighting the life force of reality.
616 Eternity is just a universe (or a pseudo multiverse in some publications). One of the Forces avatars amputated his divergent future (Here Comes Tomorrow) and held that future reality in her hand like it was nothing, fatally wounding him. If it wasnt for Jeans further aid in the Crystal, if she didnt grow a future to close that wound then he would have died.
The Force isnt plagued by the same problems its avatar Jean is, i.e disorientation upon hatching from a Phoenix Egg, or disorientation from being temporaily disconnected from the Forces Consciousness because this IS the Force unrestricted by physicality. The Force could amputate any part of Eternitys timeline, his future as we saw or if it chose his past, both resulting in his non existence and the Force would do it in alot less time than a physical avatar. So posting scans of Jean getting her head together before actually amputating the future reality wont cut it here.
From appearances on panel Eternity would take down the First Fallen, who despite having an opposing goal to the Force, hasnt displayed anywhere near its power.
He said Eternity. He never said Multi-Eternity (whom we have no showings for anyway) and neither did he say an alternate Eternity or anything at all to lead us to believe he was talking about anything other than the Eternity we all know i.e The black humanoid abstract of 616
Just to summarize, Fury didnt fight and defeat a Jaspers fighting at full potential, therefore even if its your opinion that Jaspers can take out any of the listed opponents, you cannot therefore claim Fury could defeat any and anyone you believe Jaspers can.
The Force is the life force of reality, just being sentient within reality drains reality's collective life energy reserve. Its avatars have manipulated Eternity in the palm of their hands at an atomic level, first after the telekinetic amputation, (after which Jean held the future state of Eternity, a divergent possible future reality 15104 in her hand where it was later disposed of) and secondly when Jean materialised the rest of the timeline in her palm telekinetically to heal the wound she had inflicted on it by altering the past (i.e Cyclops reaction to Emma) thereby growing a new future to replace the one she had just cut away.
The Force would be easily capable of that and so much more. Eternity would get dealt with.
Jaspers couldnt destroy the Force. The Force could teleport him out reality into the void, or it could telekinetically rip reality away from around him(certainly feasible if one of its avatars can wield telekinetic control of a reality down to its atoms) either option resulting in a powerless Jaspers.
Or the Force could be cheap and take Jaspers out of the equation before he could blink an eye. Jaspers needs to apply his power to himself to make his physicality anything more than human, he needs to either do that directly or he needs to create a reality warp an area of reality where he determines the laws. Either way with his very human reactons the Force could snipe him before he even registers whats hhappening to him.
Team one for the win. Phoenix is greater than either Eternity or Jaspers(dont go off on a tangent about his supposed omniversal potential which is irrelevant when it was never ever realised on panel) and with Jamie Braddock and the First Fallen for backup its a dead cert.
in the Jaspers vs Phoenix thread Merlyn's statement was dismissed by you,
now since I said Jamie vs Jaspers anyone takes it, you Must disagree of course, and so you bring up Merlyn as a reputable source because he said Jaspers was an Omniversal threat.
Selective aren't we old friend.
True,
but it is what I think anyway.
That's pre-school level logic.
Untrue.
Jaspers was trying his best to kill Fury, but Fury simply would Not die.
"limited by his human imagination and human experience?"
Actually according to On Panel events and Fury's Official Bio,
The Fury was immune to Jaspers' Warp.
If you can't accept that,
write Marvel a letter.
Speculation.
Don't dismiss my opinion if you're gonna come back with another.
616 Eternity has NEVER and will NEVER be a Multiverse.
Amputated the Future of an Alternate Reality, NOT of 616 Eternity:
By the time Jean Amputates the Future Deep in the Arc in issue #154,
the Story has been taking place in Reality 15104 since issue #150.
the Future of,
Earth-15104
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104 (please log in to view the image)
(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)
"In ONE Future" (there are many Possible Futures)
Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104 ...
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
2.
Bio
"it intended to use the FORCE'S Energy to power the recombination ... IMPALED on a Lance of Energy ... WOUNDED the Force sought out a host to Protect it as it HEALED" (please log in to view the image)
On Panel verification
"Impaled, Spitted, the PHOENIX writhes as it's LIFE is SUCKED OUT" (please log in to view the image)
"It has never known PAIN of this magnitude, it SCREAMS"
"It's willfully TORTURING the PHOENIX" ..... am I imagining things, or is it's FIRE GOING OUT,
the COLORS are FADING, like it's DYING" (please log in to view the image)
"TRULY, the PHOENIX is BATTLING for IT'S LIFE against the sear of Light that is STRIPPING it's POWER AWAY"
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
3.
Bio
"the FORCE attacked the ship, threatening the stability of the planet ... the Heroes were ABLE to DRIVE the FORCE into another Portal ... and it Emerged Four Billion Years in the Past" (please log in to view the image)
On Panel verification
A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (SIX in ALL) are sent to battle the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Multi-Eternity is the Totality of Eternity.
They are one in the same.
Everything Eternity 616 experiences is as though Multi-Eternity experienced it.
Everything ANY Universe/Eternity experiences is as though Multi did as well.
Eternity is ONE Sentience spread through out the Multiverse as Universal Aspects.
Sorry friend,
you were proven wrong on this one.
"The Force is the life force of reality?"
The Life-Force of Reality is the Universe itself (Eternity & Infinity)
"This Crystal embodies the LifeForce of your Home Dimension" (please log in to view the image)
"By breaking it, that Entire Portion of the Omniverse Ceases to Exist"
I never seen Jean nor any other Avatar hold Eternity at any time.
The baby Reality where only X-Men exist named 15104 seemed to manifest ONLY in Jeans hands.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
She held the Future state of Reality 15104:
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104 (please log in to view the image)
(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)
There's no getting around this.
The Alternate Future of Reality 15104 was Repaired nothing more.
The Force could never defeat ALL of Eternity.
I agree the Force can destroy a Divergent Universe/Eternity,
but NOT Eternity 616 or his Totality.
I believe he can.
The Force can die,
proven in Excalibur #25 when Galactus nearly ERASED it from existence.
How would the Force know to do that?
When has Jean or let alone Any Avatar turned Reality into a Void?
And you keep bringing up Fury's tactics as if the Force is as savvy.
One of the Fury's primary powers is to ADAPT, that's why he figured out how to defeat Jaspers.
Stop making it seemed as if the Force has ever been seen in battle replicating Fury's abilities.
This is untrue..
Jaspers went toe to toe with the Fury aside from Warping it,
the Fury's speed is remarkably fast duke, FAR faster than Human.
Team Two for the Win.
Only Jamie helps give the team a few wins.
Actually his potential was realized in an Alternate Future Cobweb peered into.
1 For one who so resolutely abides by the handbooks verdict for their arguments I find it rather amusing that you’re ignoring the fact that the handbooks state that Jaspers warped nothing but the UK, the world at the most.
Given that on panel the damage Jaspers wrecks is presented by Captain Britain and by the title of the issue (“Anarchy in the UK”) as being countrywide, global at the most that coupled with the handbooks word on the matter mean that officially your opinion isn’t the case.
Jaspers being one with the universe as stated on the marvunapp site doesn’t equate to his warp having warped the universe.
Ambiguous and far from conclusive lines from Jaspers stating that “I made everything, the stars” etc don’t equate to him having warped the entire universe and could instead mean he remade everything within the confines of his warp which could well include the stars in view as reality doesn’t have to make sense within an area under the influence of a reality warper. A reality warper could grab the stars they see in the sky and eat them if they wished as they can determine the physical laws of reality within their sphere of influence.
With all that in mind, I have provided a handbook entry stating clearly the scale of the warp, I have illustrated how Captain Britain only refers to Jaspers having done damage to the U.K and how the title of the issue where it all occurs is “Anarchy in the UK”
Please come up with a scan stating the scale of Jaspers warp specifically. Not an ambiguous, open to interpretation from Jaspers, or an unrelated statement from marvunapp saying he was one with the universe which says nothing of the scale of his warp. (e.g Storm can become one with the planet does that mean her influence can extend across the entire globe. Silver Surfer can become one with the universe via Cosmic Awareness does that mean his cosmic power can influence directly the entire universe at once?)
2 In your scans from Excalibur v1 issue 19 Jamie Braddock has NOT created an entire universe from scratch. That’s not stated anywhere that is your supposition. That issue is a part of the ongoing Excalibur storyline “Crosstime Caper” where Excalibur is travelling to alternative universes via Rachel’s power and Widget their robot. They travel to another universe and encounter an alternate version of Jamie.
It is NOT an alternate version of Jamie that 616 Jamie created within a universe 616 Jamie also created. Please show me where that point is stated and you have won the point. Until then the point is not verified and so can’t be presented as the truth here.
Those scans you’ve presented claiming Kitty is explaining your interpretation are merely scans of Kitty speculating about a link between the alternate universes version of Jaspers and 616 Jaspers.
If anything shes saying that that alternate universe Jamie is one and the same as 616 Jamie, NOT just a creation of Jamie as you are stating, but instead a representation of himself within this alternate universe to fight Excalibur. If this is the case as is actually suggested then its no impressive feat as 616 Jamie is not exhibiting power while hes manifesting in this other universe. Its not like hes in 616 with his full reality warping powers whilst he has a manifestation in an alternate universe with full reality warping powers. The guys reduced to a mute playing with toy figures.
Either way, it is never stated that 616 Jaspers created this alternate version or the universe he resides in, that is your supposition. Understand that. Show us where that points stated point blank and not a string of ambiguous scenes where you’ve gained that interpretation from otherwise the point is lost.
3 Jamie isn’t absorbing Rogue, Phoenix and Meggans powers. That’s im hoping a misinterpretation on your part. If you’ve actually read the story arc and not just that specific issue and if you read that scan you’ll that Meggan and Phoenix were psychically linked and prior to that issue were morphing into each other, in the scan you’ve posted Meggan turns into a Rogue like form and then tries to defeat Jamie by absorbing his powers. Meggan says in the scan shes worried about absorbing his memories as well and Jamie says “You don’t want em sweetie?...How bout I take yours instead?” at which point he takes control of Meggan and through her mindlink with Rachel tries to take control of Rachel:
4 Jamie doesn’t as far as we know erase all the stars in the universe with a thought. Yet more supposition. The point isn’t stated it’s just an assumption. Within Jamies sphere of influence nothing necessarily makes sense by conventional standards. Within his sphere he can make almost anything happen, make you perceive whatever he wants you to perceive as reality is after all just ones perception, not necessarily whats actually there. All the stars IN VIEW fell down like snow and yet you’d try and tell us he did that to all the stars in the universe? Good luck backing that one up conclusively. Plus was it literally the stars that fell down or was that what Jamie made them perceive? We don’t know
5 You say that after Kitty fooled 616 Jamie that the alternate universe fades away and the alternate universe fades away when 616 Jamie goes to bed. You’re right on the latter, the alternate Jamie fades away, supporting the idea that this was a manifestation of Jamie within this alternative universe. (Still unimpressive for the aforementioned reasons. 616 Jamie was not shown exhibiting power while he was manifesting in this other universe) However you’re wrong on the notion that the alternate universe faded away. For one you don’t know that Jamie warped the entire universe, that’s more supposition. Not once is that stated. All you see on panel are Excalibur fighting in a city and at the end of that issue as shown in your scan the city and just the city fade away NOT the universe:
If he created the universe when everything faded why was Excalibur left standing in reality on firm ground to remark on how the city faded away? Surely they would have been left in a void if he created the universe as you claim? Doesn’t add up I’m afraid. Your point isn’t stated and what’s actually shown on panel doesn’t support it either.
6 The bio entry of Jaspers is telling the truth. The Fury was immune to Jaspers reality warp. He was immune to everything Jaspers tried on him, however as we saw on panel Jaspers did nothing high level, he merely shape shifted and engaged Fury hand to hand. The Fury adapts and becomes resistant to attacks as stated in your scan. Jaspers compressed Fury into a ball that is hardly a cosmic level attack, so it’s no surprise Jaspers attacks didn’t give Fury any trouble. Doesn’t mean Fury is immune to reality warping, we know it’s not because look how the Chaos Wave affected it in Uncanny X-men 462:
It was just immune to what Jaspers tried and given what Jaspers was doing that’s understandable. Jaspers trying to kill the thing doesn’t say much if the methods hes using aren’t befitting of his power level and ability. So once again your abc logic, Fury beat Jaspers so Fury can beat everyone I think Jaspers can is incredibly basic.
7 Reality 15104 was a divergent future of 616. Jean amputated this future and then healed the wound she dealt on 616 (by cutting away its future) by changing Cyclops of 616’s actions. If Jean cut away the future of an alternate reality then she wouldn’t have changed 616 Cyclops actions to fix the damage as that would have had no affect. She would have reached back and changed actions in the past of this alternate reality. You have already agreed (and quite rightly so) that 15104 was a divergent future of 616 so if you think hard about this subject it’s not hard to see why this line of argument doesn’t make sense in the slightest.
8 This reposting of this Phoenix in Ultraverse nonsense does nothing as I have already highlighted how the Firebird is just an avatar for the ambient life force of reality and not the totality of the Phoenix Force. I have also highlighted how this avatar was severely depowered by not being in the reality where it draws its power from. This thread is about the full Phoenix Force, your Ultraverse scans are not representative of that and are therefore useless.
9 Eternity and Infinity embody the chronal and spatial axi’ respectively. The Phoenix Force is the ambient life energy that saturates reality. The Phoenix comes first, time and space come after. They are different things but all are connected.
Just because your source says somethings the life force of the universe doesn’t mean that mines wrong. For all we know theyre connected. Either way ive provided multiple official sources stating my point so unless you can provide an on panel source stating Phoenix is NOT the life force of reality as opposed to other publications saying something has the same role then you cant say a word.
9 There is a Multi Eternity who is the multiverse proper i.e all the What If universes etc and there are the universal aspects of Eternity such as 616 Eternity who are a part of this greater unproven entity. 616 Eternity has sometimes been described as a multiverse because connected with him are more than one dimensions. In Secret Wars you’ve shown yourself that 616 Eternity can be classified as a multiverse of sorts as stated by the Beyonder for the very same reason. In Dr Strange issues 616 Eternity has been classified as a multiverse and yet there are still acknowledged to be separate Eternitys presumably are pseudo multiverses themselves. However while 616 Eternity is a part of Multi-Eternity, in a thread featuring Eternity you cant talk as if the threadmaker means Multi-Eternity who is as unproven and unheard of on panel as Superman Prime. Please don’t speculate about Multi-Eternity because a) you know nothing about him and b) he is irrelevant to this thread.
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Apr 22nd, 2007 12:12 AM
