Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Using her claws is actually her performing some combat action. That's like saying Maul didn't do a lightsaber fight against Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon because he was jumping, kicking and punching with his martial art skills. That doesn't make sense.
That can only come from a person who didn't read the comics.
- she cleaved Kun's helmet into pieces with one of her claws. I'd really like to know how strong somebody must be and how tough those claws must be to archieve that feat.
- in the Battle of Coruscant she almost effortlessly cuts her way through the minions of Aleema and Ulic - this when one of the Jedi says that they might possibly die before that confrontation
- she wrecks serveral Massassi with her claws without drawing her weapon. Notice how all Massassi use the Dark Side to boost their combat abilities.
I don't think that you've gotten the point, DS. Lucas himself in the TPM commentary says that a Jedi should be "invincible" if not outmatched by far superior numbers or far superior fire power (both happening in the arena on Geonosis for example). The list of people able to defeat Jedi in melee combat is extremely short and even those have to rely supernatural advantages (Durge, Grievous) or dirty tricks (Jango Fett during the battle of Galindraan).
Now Ulic has none of that. He's a regular human by the time of Redemption who happens to have had some lightsaber training. That's it. Now he's attacked by a Jedi. In general Jedi can move at speeds that would be visible to a non-force-user only as blurs. They can enchant there strength to a quite superhuman level as well and they do have precognition.
Technically Sylvar should have wtfdestroyed Ulic in seconds and we saw quite tought melee combatants (Yusanis, the Echani sisters, Mandalore) getting downed by Jedi within seconds. Why ? Because you can't withstand a Jedi in melee combat if you aren't a force user yourself or have access to other superhuman abilities. Yet Ulic without his force powers and without such abilities still managed to do so. He archieved something that should have been totally impossible. He did simply hold on against an enraged Jedi in melee combat.
He must have been outstanding when it comes down to raw bladework because otherwise this would have been impossible. And he was no where near his prime when he fought Sylvar. You might ask yourself what happens if you give a guy that can last against a Jedi without special abilities the same abilities the Jedi fighting against him had. Hmm...
And on a sidenote: I don't know why you're again trying to change the direction of that thread into some "let's discuss general topics" nonsense here. This is Ulic VS the Exile.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
I don't understand how you come up with that comparison. The better comparison would be Qui Gon getting a kick or a punch in on Maul. That doesn't mean he's a better lightsaber combatant, nor does it actually have anything to do with his lightsaber abilities.
I'm actually looking at DLOTS comic 1 of 6 in which he puts Crado on his ass and is fighting Sylvar, so yes I have it. Still, how does this have anything to do with her lightsaber abilities, which seem average at best?
She beat Aleema's minions, ok so? She put 1 or 2 Massassi on their ass, and then the big Massassi warrior put her on her ass. How is this evidence of her allegedly uber lightsaber abilities?
Tell me Nai, how many Jedi/sith have we seen move with blurring speeds in saber combat? So far I can only name two. Luke and Sidious (unless I'm forgetting some). There is absolutely no evidence that Sylvar did any of that. In fact she was swinging widly at Ulic trying to kill her.
I never said he wasn't outstanding. I recognize him as a saber prodigy and one of the saber greats.
When someone makes a ridiculous assertion, wouldn't you question it Nai?
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
You realize how this is contradicting you assertion in the other thread that Anakin must be superior with a lightsaber in comparison to Dookue when he defeated the Sith Lord by immobilizing Dooku's weaponhand with his mechanical hand ?
I never stated that it makes Sylvar a superior lightsaber combatant or duellist. The point is that "average Jedi" doesn't fit as description for Sylvar as she has proven that she's quite dangerous in combat.
Once more. I'm referring to here combat prowess in general and not to her lightsaber skills alone. The evidence simply shows that Sylvar can dash out some serious damage when enraged and she was enraged when fighting against Ulic.
Yes. You're forgetting quite some people here, DS. Mace movements where descriped as "invisible" in Shatterpoint, Kar Vastors as "lightning fast", Depa is obviously able to match that speed. Yoda in the RotS movie deflects more than 40 blaster bolts in 3 seconds and I can't follow his movements really. Bane in PoD was descriped as moving so fast that it seemed to the people watching him that the time had stopped. And we have Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM performing their force speed action while running away from the Droidekas on board of the Trade federation ship.
Force speed is a basic ability, DS. I don't see why somebody wouldn't use it in combat. One could argue that the movie interpretations are just slow motion evidence of the actual lightsaber fights. And even in those the people are moving quite fast (Yoda VS Sidious and Obi-Wan VS Anakin in RotS, Yoda vs Dooku in AotC).
The point is, DS, that his assertion wasn't as rediculous as it might seem to you. Ulic while sacrificing all of his advantages, was capable of beating the best warrior of an entire race of fighters (Mandalore). He, without his force powers, was clearly able to withstand the ferious assault of an enraged Jedi over some minutes - and that while still limiting himself because he didn't want to hurt Sylvar. We've never seen any other regular human pulling something like that off - not even remotely close.
So if you limit it to sheer combat abilities, Ulic might be the best combatant ever in the SW universe. That doesn't change the fact that some people possessing greater force mastery or an unparalleled connection to the force (like Luke for example, or Sidious) would still defeat Ulic (even in top shape when having his force powers) in a lightsaber duel.
On the other handside even Exar Kun, who was definitely one of the best duellists and most powerful beings in the SW universe, wasn't capable of claiming an advantage over Ulic in a straight forward lightsaber duel. So I can clearly see even people like Sidious and Luke having problems with Ulic in his top shape and I definitely don't see how the Exile should be able to defeat him.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
I don't recall Anakin doing such a thing but I'll take a look.
She pwned 2 Massassi warriors and got pwned by the third one Nai.
Well I specifically omitted Qui Gon and Obiwan because they didn't do it in saber combat.
Nai, you don't see why someone couldn't use that incredibly speed in saber combat? I could. You clearly have to have a certain level of force mastery coupled with saber skill or you'll cut yourself to pieces. This is why we see the best of the best (Luke, Sidious, Yoda, Mace), using it.
It is ridiculous Nai. You are saying "He was able to do this this and that without the force, so how much MORESO could he do with the use of the force"? You're basically making the claim that his skills are exponentially better with the use of the force, something we can't really quantify.
I'm not sure about that Nai. You've got Dooku, Mace, Yoda, Jacen, and of course Sidious and Luke/
Exar Kun wasn't at his peak when he battled Ulic. He was at his peak during the Sith War, with his double blade. Also, I don't see the likes DE Sidious or NJO Luke having any kind of difficulty with Ulic in saber combat. After their fight in DE and after Luke going through an army of Vong, they separate themselves from the rest of the pack. Ulic would have good fights with the likes of Yoda and Mace, but would ultimately lose.
The Exile is at the very least is a master swordsman if not an outstandingly exceptional one. Her ability to learn her opponents lightsbaer techniques and force forms very quickly after brief observation makes her well equipped to take down powerful opponnents in one - on - one situations. She canonically knows at least three lightsaber forms to Ulic's zero (unknown).
And before anyone tries to make an uneducated rebuttal towards this comment think about this.... Just about every distinguished Jedi that lived to see past their 25th birthday is a master swordsman, the lightsaber is their primary weapon for some 20 odd years at least, they are all at least master swordsmen. From Luminara Undulu to Sora Bulq to Ulic and Malak.
The question is always (as it is in this case) whether they are exceptional enough to distinguish themselves from their peers. Ulic was quite easily among the best of his time but nothing about what he accomplished puts him over the Exile.
Ulic's biggest combat victory was defeating Warb Null a dark sider nowhere on the level of the Sith Lords in Kotor.
He also cut down the powerful King Ommin, but to be fare to Ommin he was a half zombie barely able to stand without a supporting exoskeleton.
He later faced Kun in a brief encounter but the incident only proved that Ulic was good enough to stand up to Kun in a brief exchange and nothing more. Beyond those feats Ulic has done nothing of exceptional note.
The Exile meanwhile aside from beating a more powerful, non paralyzed version of Ommin in Kreia, has stood up to a Sion powered by Malachor 5 and defeated an academy worth of Sith many of whom could siphon force energy from their attackers.
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Last edited by Allankles on Sep 11th, 2007 at 08:58 PM
That would only be correct if we chose to ignore the statement in the Darkside Sourcebook, which makes it clear that the bout between Ulic and Kun could have lasted quite a while before any victor would arise.
"Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upperhand. Their battle might have gone on for hours [...]" (Darkside Sourcebook, Ch. 5, p. 76)
It doesn't even state that Kun would be able to win, so it's completely ridiculous to say that all it proved was he could battle Kun for a short while "and nothing more".
I'd easily say from those sentences alone, that Ulic was nigh completely on par with Kun in terms of dueling (prior to creating his double bladed lightsaber, however).
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Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
I'm not sure what scene you are talking about but I was referring to the fight in the Senate Chamber. Sylvar takes out 3 or 4 Massassi at once and later gets owned by Kun.
Which you can't state like this. The movie interpretation doesn't show them using force speed in combat. I gave you a reason for this: If they would, the audience wouldn't be able to follow the fights. Yet, looking through the novels, almost any fight involving a Jedi / Sith there is done with superhuman speed. And I doubt that Sylvar is an exception there.
What kind of illogical assertion is that, DS ? If you have learned not to cut yourself with a lightsaber once you wouldn't suddenly do so because going at a higher level of speed. The movements stay the same. You just perform them faster. And since even Padawans are shown to use force speed, I doubt that a verteran Jedi Knight isn't capable of doing the same.
OMG. Read that statement of yours DS. So those additional force based skills, that - according to the creator of the SW universe - are making Jedi "invincible" in combat are not making a fight exceptionally stronger ? I'd call a considerable boost in strength and speed coupled with precognition a very huge advantage and I really don't see how somebody can even attempt to argue that, DS.
And who of them do you think could hold off an enraged Jedi without having access to the force, DS ? I guess Yoda, Dooku and Sidious can't because being limited to their raw physical abilities wouldn't be good for them. Jacen's and Luke's abilities with a lightsaber are very much dependant on their level of force mastery. That leaves Mace Windu out of that list. Possibly.
Post DE Luke had his ass handed to him by a guy that received some of Kun's knowledge and was almost killed by Gantoris when he assaulted Luke with a dual-phase lightsaber. Doesn't seem so as if DE Luke or Sidious do play in their own league when it comes to combat.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Yoda is, definately. Sidious? Probably. However, Dooku might not be after all. It's said in Dark Rendezvous mentions he's in better shape than most men half his age. But I don't know if this is because of the Force or maybe SW medical tech helps.
Do you actually read the statement I could copy and paste every time on Luke and Palpatine's combat abilities circa DE?
1. Luke was attacked on both sides by Kun and Kyp, and I somehow doubt any teacher included "OK, Luke....this is what you do when assaulted by your renegade student AND a long dead Sith Ghost surprising you while you're trying not to harm said student!"
Why do you think Kun didn't dare try anything with Luke until that moment?
2. Notice Luke held back against Gantoris horribly and was more focused on keeping Gantoris from falling to the Dark Side?
Compare and contrast that fight to Luke and Palpatine flying across the room at speeds too fast for any eye to follow?
Although to be fair, I dont think its a good idea to cite that instance to prove that Sylvar is necessarily weak, DS. The Massassi warriors arent exatly your typical non-Jedi/Sith warriors who are weak. Nadd stated that, unlike their ancestors, these Massassi were powerful dark side beings, due to the Sith Alchemy of Naga Sadow himself. Nadd followed by saying that they were worthy of being mastered by Kun.
So Sylvar taking out a number of Massassi warriors, sometimes 2 or even 3 at once, is already impressive in my opinion. And the one who owned her isnt exactly your typical Massassi warrior, as that one was way taller and bigger than his brethrens. Either that was an Elite Massassi warrior or Exar Kun mutated it a little bit to become even stronger, just like what he did to the Massassi priest days before he went to Ossus
Last edited by -Blasmaster- on Sep 12th, 2007 at 06:22 AM
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Sidious doesn't strike me as being too impressive in terms of raw physical abilities, Escape. And Dooku ? He might be in better shape than most people half of his age. Still the regular 40 year old wouldn't be able to fend of a Jedi Knight.
Lightsnake. Once more: This is stupid. If I may remind you: Luke enters the roof with his lightsaber ignited, clearly ready to fight - according to you he, despite of that, is still caught offguard by Kun and Kyp ? Laughable. Then one of them pretty much short-circuits his lightsaber before he's being attacked directly. Once more he isn't capable of defending himself against Kyp alone before Kun finally rips Luke's spirit from his body. It even says that all defences he tries are failing.
And why I think Kun didn't attack Luke until that point ? Because obviously he was trying to turn Luke to the Dark Side which is pretty evident in the scenes in which he appears to Luke as Vader.
Notice how Luke was still almost killed when Gantoris increased the length of his blade ?
Which is basically the general fighting speed for Jedi and Sith in the SW universe, Lightsnake ? Rather annoying when one hyperbole applies to pretty much everybody in a certain storyline, isn't it ?
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Excuse me Nai? Show me an instance where two NON masters are fighting at the speed of Luke and Sidious. Please. In fact, show me an instance where two combatants are so damn powerful that all of the force users across the galaxy feel their battle, and where the stormtroopers next to the combatants all fall down dead. This is ridiculous.
Dooku can kick a man a fraction of his age across the room and in DE, Palpatine outmuscles Luke in his clone body and his natural speed is amazing.
Not to mention he survives getting hit over the head by several tons of machinery
Lightsnake. Once more: This is stupid. If I may remind you: Luke enters the roof with his lightsaber ignited, clearly ready to fight - according to you he, despite of that, is still caught offguard by Kun and Kyp ? Laughable. Then one of them pretty much short-circuits his lightsaber before he's being attacked directly. Once more he isn't capable of defending himself against Kyp alone before Kun finally rips Luke's spirit from his body. It even says that all defences he tries are failing.[/Quote]
Take it up with the text and not me, Nai, because it clearly says Luke does NOT want to harm Kyp.
It also says something, I repeat, that AGAIN: Luke's defenses are useless when he's already hit by them, and that you continuously tend to ignore this point:
Not a single one of Luke's three mentors have taught him what to do against a Force ghost, or against this technique. Think Obi-wan had time to mention it? Yoda? Think Palpatine would have told him? Or perhaps one of the few Holocrons? I'm certain in between basic points, Luke'd have made sure to have gotten specific information on just that scenario....rather than being a clever trap by Kun, you're trying to hype it up into Luke's incredible deficiency. Bit unfair, no?
And yeah, Luke really expected the sudden appearance of a Sith Ghost in addition to Kyp, makes perfect sense, Nai.
And it's evident that isn't going to work right off the bat. Is Kun crazy enough to continue to believe it
Notice that's because he had no idea Gantoris would have any knowledge of how to do that? Notice because he was surprised by his star pupil suddenly trying to kill him and having knowledge he shouldn't have? Notice Luke regains himself shortly thereafter and ends the fight because he realizes just how close Gantoris is to the Dark Side?
And quite the short time later, Corran Horn, for whom length increasing is a signature move with his saber, realizes he'd be good for nothing except to hold Luke's cloak in a fight?
Including to the senses of other force sensitives 'any eye, Nai'...coupled with how fast they were flying across the room and only distinguishable whatsoever by the sheer raw power emanating from them...
Yes, Nai, seems incredibly basic! Especially considering they're directly stated to be moving at speeds totally undetectable to any eye. That means, I don't care if Leia, or TK421, or Jabba the Hutt or Marka Ragnos, or Kar Vastor, or Watto himself is watching: if they fall under the 'any eye' category, they wouldn't be able to see the speeds those two fought at.
The same has never been applied to Ulic or Exar, or Naga Sadow or Ludo Kressh, or Yoda, or Mace, or practically any one else in the SW galaxy. Period.
Rather annoying when you absolutely love to downplay this. I'm sick and tired of you throwing out 'hyperbole' on it, Nai. Either show me something contradicting it, show me something better than it, show me ANYTHING in your argument instead of defaulting on an easy way out that means you don't have to argue the feat itself, or accept it,. because you've ignored it once too often.
You can deal with the narration stating Luke is a master duelist (DE issue 1), you can deal with the narration stating Palpatine is one of the finest duelists the galaxy had ever seen, that his skills were 'flawless' and Luke only stood a chance at the end, given the avatar like states they both had achieved, given that he's able to force Yoda into a fight of his life in a much older and less fit body, with less mastery of the Force.
They're both master swordsmen. There's nothing more complicated than that, so stop trying to force your interpretation and opinion onto clear canon. I don't care what it 'strikes you as,' Nai, start looking at what is. If I can admit Exar Kun and Ulic are two of the best duelists ever and can stand a good chance against the likes of Mace and Yoda in combat, you can damn well swallow your pride on this matter.
I was referring to Ossus actually and my point was that her apparently better than average combat prowess isnt synonymous with her saber abilities, which we really haven't seen.
Show me ANY proof of this. I know this is the interpretation for the Sidious and Mace fight, but show me other instances where the actual fight had both combatants with this incredible speed. Nobody has ever shown anything like DE Sidious and Luke.
Lets get one thing straight Nai. Knowing how to use force speed in no way means you know how to use force speed in a duel. They're different things Nai. Just because Obiwan and Qui Gon can run at incredible speeds, doesn't mean they know how to apply this certain mastery of the force into saber combat.
What do you mean Jacen and Luke's abilities are very much dependant on their force mastery? Are you basing all of this on the simple fact that NONE of them were fighting without the force? Lets not forget that Luke picked up a blade at 19 and already at 26, he was a master swordsman. How do you know Ulic's force abilities weren't good? You're basically saying that because Ulic had to fight without the force and didn't die from it, he is superior to other saber users. This does NOT warrant the "best saber duelist ever" title.