There was a similar discussion over at the DC boards a while back. Current WW writer Gail Simone weighed in with her opinion. Unfortunately the original thread was closed (it got pretty nasty), but her quote was,
"I'd say, if Superman is a ten, WW and Cap are a nine, J'onn is an eight. In strength alone.
But if you go to combat skill, then Diana is the ten, Superman an eight, Cap a seven, J'onn a six.
Adding the other powers changes things as well. But in combat skill, Diana is the top of the pyramid in the DCU, no question.
That's just my opinion."
This isn't proof of anything and writers have their own bias of course. Nonetheless, I thought it was interesting to hear one writer's opinion.
The conversation was continued in another thread, which is where I gleaned the quote. Feel free to PM me for the link.
I still think that DC Herc is stronger than WW going by their latest appearances where a HALF STRENGTH Herc made Supes bleed and punched him thru a building and easily threw WW when he snapped out of mind control.
Hmmm I would rate Superman and Captain Marvel as equals or nearly close in Strength.........I would place Wonder Woman below both in Strength........in my opinion Captain Marvel and Superman are nearly equals and are above Diana..........in straight up fight Superman/Captain Marvel would crush Diana (Her durability compared to their own is a major factor).......but she can seriously hinder Superman with her magic tools.....
__________________ "Let The Rage Of The Gods Guide Thy Fury"
This just isn't true. Wonder Woman's Durability to Blunt force trauma is right up there with thier's. So CM wouldn't be able to do too much to Diana that she can't do back. Diana wouldn't be getting crushed by CM. Even Superman's heat vision to her face didn't put her down. Do you read Wonder Woman?
What does that have to do with the base hypocrisy in the treatment of Superman's magic weakness as either a non-factor or an easy excuse for poor showings depending on what suits a Superman fan's purpose at a given moment?
I'm not a fan of Superman. In the Slightest. So dont' ask me questions that you should be asking Superman's fans. I'm giving you logical reasons as to why Magic actually counts with CM but is only a small factor with Thor. Fact is, Thor is slow and doesn't have the dmg resistance of CM. Cm can react fast enough to match Superman. And if Superman does get the jump on CM, CM's resistance is so high, that he can still retaliate at Superspeeds with minimal dmg from Superman.
Actually I do read a lot of Wonder Woman.......not as much as I would like but I have a good deal of her comics.....
Based from what I have seen Wonder Woman's durability varies a bit but her resistance to Blaunt Force is actually pretty good.........but not up there on Clark's or Billys durability........
She is capable of defeating either but not likely.....she certainly has the tools and capabalities........but if they really let loose I believe that either would crush her.......she fared decently against Superman was controlled by Max but as I saw Superman would defeat her.......not very easily but she would go down.........Captain Marvel would have a tougher time with Wonder Woman but he would defeat her as well.......
I do not know how she withstood Superman's heat vision.......it really burned her but it should not do that little damage........it is off the scale even on Solar charts.........if he really went loose it should do more than that.........far more than that.........but she did say her bones were burning(I have seen it take out an entire army of Doomsday clones instantly)........
Superman or Captain Marvel would defeat Diana........she would put up an amazing fight but she would go down........her bones are breakable and such.......she would go down..........the entire fight in Sacrifice he her twice I believe.........once she blacked out for a few seconds.......the second time around he got ahold of her he crushed her wrist........
Captain Marvel is almost always shown to be the very equal of Superman.......or really damn close......he can do the same amount of damage....
__________________ "Let The Rage Of The Gods Guide Thy Fury"
Last edited by RageOfTheGods on Aug 19th, 2008 at 05:21 PM
Dude. Pay attention to the sacrifice arc. Wondy was HOLDING back. And Superman had a Sun amp when he Punched Diana. And he punched her at 8 times the speed of light. Anyone other than the very top of the heap would be dead. not many can lay claim to being punched at 8 times the speed of light and still have thier head. I dont' need to go down the list of Superman class beings that wondy has matched or beaten do I?
You're arguing around it and factoring it into both fights, which is reasonable enough.
The typical Superman fan will come prepped with several scans to "prove" that Superman is not really weak to magic when it suits their purposes to downplay it.
But they will be the first to cite his magic weakness when they need a convenient excuse to explain away a loss.
She said I hold back "barely".......which did her no good.......none of her attacks besides her bracelets did any visible harm.......but I believe a kick to the jaw did make his lip bleed but next panel it was gone I believe.......
Superman was toned down I believe........they were moving towards the Sun........beside it he should literally rip Diana limb from limb.......he has ripped Darkseid apart literally when he was letting loose and took on the Omega Beams if I remember correctly........his heat vision was so narrow.......if he really let loose it should be of the charts........even Solar charts........Superman was toned down or he was still holding back.......also since she is vulnerable to energy and electrical attacks........Superman's heat vision should be one of the greatest things in his arsenal against Wonder Woman but for some reason she was written resistant to it........
Superman was really toned down I believe........he should be ripping Diana into two.......he can fight at Speeds of Light........ever see Superman fight Doomsday/Imperiex Probe and such.......he can literally punch Diana thousands of times and attack her from all angles........she is fast but Superman is faster he was not going all out........I would think if Superman was under the impression that Doomsday killed his loved one he would let loose.....it was like that encounter with Batman in my opinion......he was either being toned down to give Diana a chance or he was still holding back.......
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She could literally not touch him........he could also vibrate invisible......
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That is what should happen to her if they ever fought near the Sun and Superman was actually trying.......
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It cannot be measured on Solar Charts.......his heat vision can do far more than what he did to Diana..........
Anyways my point is he was toned down in that fight.........Diana barely holding back is not worth for much.......I am not saying Wonder Woman is not powerful........she is certainly is but Superman letting loose would crush her.......
Also please give me a list of beings Wonder Woman has taken down as powerful as Superman..........my memory is really terrible lol.......
Also what exactly are we debating here lol.......Wonder Woman's ability to hang with Superman for a while........or her strength and durability compared to Superman?
__________________ "Let The Rage Of The Gods Guide Thy Fury"
Last edited by RageOfTheGods on Aug 19th, 2008 at 06:13 PM
You can say that he was toned down all you want, but he was enraged and trying to kill who he thought was Doomsday. Wonder Woman took his best blows, including point-blank heat vision to the face. It's not like this was the first time either. She's taken dozens of his blows throughout their history together, and usually wasn't too damaged and ready to continue fighting.
No one here is denying just how powerful Superman is. I'll be the first to say that he's ridiculously powerful. But others need to realize that Wonder Woman isn't all that far behind him at all. When they're both fighting to the very best of their ability, they're near even, with Superman obviously being the superior, but not by leaps and bounds. She can hang with him, even if he wants to put her down and she's holding back. And she can hang with him longer when she's actually fighting as well. But yes, Superman will eventually beat her.
Hell, I don't even like DC. But over the past couple years, I've become a big Wonder Woman fan, and realized just how powerful she is in the DC universe. You can call it bias if you want, but I call it knowledge.
He was toned down.......his other fights prove it.......overall Superman letting loose would destroy her..........if he actually stops holding back his punch can destroy a small planet instantly.........Wonder Woman is powerful.........I am certainly not saying otherwise........but Superman in that fight was not letting loose........compared to say his fight with an Imperiex Prime.......he was not letting loose..........
Wonder Woman never took his best blows? He hit her once where she blacked out for a few seconds and next time he got ahold of her he crushed her wrist........
She took point blank heat vision.......yes but she also said it burned her bones......if he really let loose his heat vision Wonder Woman would......well it would not be pretty........his heat vision rivals the heat of Stars.......also his heat vision is an energy attack which Wonder Woman is weak against........
Superman is just more powerful...........
__________________ "Let The Rage Of The Gods Guide Thy Fury"
That fight was quite... strange. Superman was under mind control, reacting sluggishly, and fighting like a complete moron, and that was supposed to be all out? Or maybe WW just assumed he was going all out because of the punishment she was taking, even though he clearly wasn't.
It certainly didn't match the "going all out" seen in situations like the Imperiex battles. Even the blast of heat vision he gave WW was like a gentle trickle compared to some of the "all out" blasts we've seen him do.
Stupid fight anyway. Punching at 8 times the speed of light? Flying back and forth to the sun? These characters are just ridiculous sometimes. There wouldn't be any villain on earth who could trouble these sorts of characters in a fight.
Diana has, I'll note, matched strength with Captain Marvel on even terms before.
I think Superman is slightly above both of them, it's just their magic even things up.
Yea, they both inflicted some real punishment.
It did damage and burn her to the bone. That is a very high-power blast.
It's not as wide as some of the ones he used against Imperiax, but that doesn't mean it's less powerful. It just means Diana is *tough*.
Nor did he react sluggishly if you ask me, he used Superspeed in combination with other powers and she used good timing and superior combat skills.
And that punch-from-the-sun-to-Earth? That's one of the strongest punches he's thrown, so he definitely was not holding back when it came to brute force.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way. "Diana survived, therefore he can't have been going all-out," vs ""Diana survived, therefore Diana is that tough." You're assuming she'd lose and using that as a base point, rather than looking at her performance against someone stated to be going all-out as the base point. The latter is definitely the written intention.
In that fight, he used his powers together and attacked *much* more aggressively than normal, there's only a few fights that compare, and he didn't show anything against the Imperiax probes that wasn't used against WW. The Elite fight showed more skill, but he planned that one carefully in advance, and he's never shown that level before or since. OWAW? Nah, that wasn't any better than Sacrifice, the difference is Diana is not so easy prey as a probe.
If you want to say Superman was toned down? I'll point out he wasn't toned down any more than Wonder Woman, they were scaled compared to each other as they normally compare.
Something often forgotten in these threads, Diana and Clark have fought *many* time in main continuity, and it's almost always a good fight, mostly draws. No matter how you spin Sacrifice, you can't explain those away.
Ares. Captain Marvel. The White Wizard. Genocide. Superman, amped by magic to be more powerful than normal Superman. Martian Manhunter. Kyle Rayner. Batman w/ kick. Zoom.
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Aug 19th, 2008 04:28 PM
