Cloud, simply because again, we have something to gauge Cloud on, and he's fought someone like Sephiroth and has actually defeated him (although Sephiroth's arrogance had a part to play in that, but which antagonist doesn't!)
Not to mention due to VII having the most spinoff's, canon books to it's storyline and abilities that Cloud has been shown to do, I would give this to him over Beatrix. I don't recall in the game of IX to where Beatrix fought anyone who was remotely close to someone like Sephiroth, so to me at least it's not a very difficult decision.
Although I like Beatrix as a character, she cute, and I'm still shocked someone as pudgy as Steiner got her .
Oh, I see now. No FF game can actually be used in any thread whatsoever. WOW. Congrats dude. Real top notch line of reasoning.
So why did you even come to this thread? Since FF9 can't show ANYTHING, how do we know Cloud would win? How do we know that the enemies they are fighting wouldn't smoke Cloud because their skin is so durrable that his sword does no damage? And in FF9 the characters have super human strength when compared to FF7 people. I mean, remember, we don't actually know ANYTHING about FF9, so really, we can't say Cloud would win either, can we?
No, no we cannot. Maybe in FF9 a single sword swing would send shockwaves of death on FF7's world. Never mind this thing we are ALL equipped with (for the most part) called common sense. That has no meaning in debates!
In fact, NO RPG can be used. They all need movies!
Well, keep up the top notch logic, bro. It will serve you quite well on this site, I can assure you. Your argument for Cloud is noted.
While I think your conclusion is based off of ridiculously faulty reasoning, I also think Cloud would win.
Cloud beat Sephiroth, but Sephiroth was still better than Cloud. Apparently he never fought him with his full strength because he didn't want to admit Cloud could hurt him, or something stupid like that. Sephiroth was pretty much the best swordsman in FF7, which is basically the title Beatrix holds in FF9 as well.
I don't know if I'd describe Beatrix as cute... She kinda came off more as a heartless ice queen. And we don't know if Steiner is pudgy under there, that might be muscle.
1. In other words, you're a clownshoe who cannot comprehend the words in my posts so you must once again shove words into my mouth? Point out where I said no FF game can be used in a thread, HUMOR ME. If you cannot, then kindly stfu and crawl back into your dwelling. From FFIX, we could easily use Kuja, Necron, any of the Eidolons, and maybe the Invincible, for instance. Using the party is stupid though, since we have no way to quantify how powerful they are.
2. Don't baw to me just because you made a bad thread. You are right, technically, we do not "know" Cloud would win, what we do know however is that the FFIX party and Beatrix have never proven to be more powerful than Cloud, why should we assume they are? You seem to think Beatrix is this powerful based on... Really nothing. You just say it as if I should accept it, that's circular reasoning.
3. That's pretty cool. Prove it. You're pretty bad at this debating thing, maybe you should just cut your losses and quit? You do not get how logic works, for all we know Cloud is really Jesus in disguise and in a fight can shoot holy orange juice from his nipples which burn at temperatures of a billion degrees Celsius. But we do not assume that, because he has not shown or even been implied to be capable of such things. Why assume the FFIX party and Beatrix are capable of feats they have yet to demonstrate?
4. Why so butthurt that your logic, and in extension your thread, has crumbled in the wake of my omnipotent intellect? I never said they all need movies, and once again, there are FFIX characters we can quantify, the party and Beatrix are not among them.
5. Why are you talking down to me as if you have been on this board for longer? Why does your sentence imply to me that your "KMC rep" is greater than my own? You have been here for two months. My logic has served me well, and, although this comes to no surprise considerin the incredibly vast nature of my intellect, my logic has indeed served me well on this site.
6. What you think really has no bearing, considering my logic is very much sound.
I'm the one who doesn't know how logic works huh? That's rich, coming from the dude who claims the FF parties strength can't be AT ALL known. How do you tell anyone else's strength? If Cloud beat Yuffie, it would be logical to say Cloud is stronger than Yuffie. So if the collective FF 9 team beat Kuja, we can say that the collective FF9 team is stronger than Kuja. THAT'S logic. I'll tell you what ISN'T logic, though.
Beatrix looses cause she has no feats.
I'm really digging the big headedness your sporting though. Makes it all the more humorous that you're so ridiculously illogical. But I guess those two things usually come in pairs don't they?
1. You said the FF characters don't have feats. FF7, according to you, does because they have Advent Children. AND according to you. If there are no feats, they cannot be used. Thus, if you need things like AC to have feats, and no old school FF game has AC like action, the old school FF games don't have feats. Am I right? And no feats means no thread use.
2. Ah, and you are supposed to be so brilliant in logic? Tell me you aren't saying the FF party is weaker than Cloud because we don't have anything that shows them stronger. That's a fallacy, NemeBro.
I never said Beatrix was stronger than Cloud. In fact, I think Cloud would win. The difference is I actually have good reasons to think Cloud would win, not "Beatrix has no feats, thus Cloud wins." That is one of the worst arguments I have ever heard, and I'm ashamed that it came from someone supporting my side.
3. But how do we know Cloud isn't burning orange nipple Jesus? We use common sense. So, unless there is reason to think that anything is different between FF9 and FF7, and I'd like to hear if there is, we can logically assume that there isn't.
4. I'm not butthurt, but I'm allergic to irrationality and you are heavy with the stuff. I see no reason Beatrix and the party can't be among the people we can quantify. If Beatrix beats Zidane, she's stronger than Zidane. That's not that hard. So if the FF9 party beats Kuja, they are collectively stronger than him. It's logic. What is the difference between Kuja and Beatrix?
5. I know, right? I've only been hear two months and I'm already better at this than you!
I agree 100% that Sephiroth was holding back nearly all of his power and potential, however regardless, Cloud still defeated a holding back Sephiroth, which is again a more powerful opponent than anyone Beatrix has confronted or been known to have contested and defeated.
That's really the basis here, because even though Beatrix is the best Swordsman, we haven't seen Beatrix slicing through solid concrete and steel like as though it were butter. Cloud did this easily, and we also see Cloud being fast enough to deflect bullets, not to mention Cloud's ridiculous leaping abilities and his ability to defy gravity when he's running up vertically on the side of a building while cutting through objects that are made of metal and concrete.
I like Beatrix, but just simply being the best swordsman isn't enough for me to give her the nod, simply because again, it's hard to gauge her abilities, and more importantly the opponents she's fought against don't even rival the Holding Back Sephiroth that Cloud defeated.
Beatrix is really sexy and cute together imo, sure she can be cold, but she changes somewhat after hooking up with Steiner.
Well, to be fair, I'm not sure I accept Clouds feats in Advent Children as accurate representations of his abilities. He doesn't seem to be doing any of that in the original FF7 and the developers of AC already stated that they weren't worried about what was "realistic" when making the movie. They were only worried about what looked cool. So I tend to go on what we know of Cloud from FF7, rather than his feats in AC, as this was likely a new battle and animation style only now being used in FF games and movies. I mean look at Dissidia as well. Those fights were basically Advent Children like fights. And Zidane was doing all that too. If you want to use AC feats to prove Cloud is above Beatrix, then you would also have to claim Zidane is above Beatrix, but we know from the game that that isn't true.
More likely it is just the new style being used recently, and if Beatrix were to ever pop up in one, I'd bet she would be doing that stuff too.
As for Holding Back Sephiroth, I can see the line of reasoning there, but I don't think it can really be backed up. We don't know how strong Holding Back Sephiroth is, because every time he holds back, he looses to Cloud. Holding Back Sephiroth doesn't really have any gauge on his abilities other than "not stronger than Cloud."
Discounting beating the main villains, quantify their strength for me please. A>B>C logic is generally not a good way to quantify the abilities of a character. Yes, if Cloud beat Yuffie, it would be logical to say he could. We really can't when you consider that Kuja easily blew them all away when he used his best attack, the one that he refused to use for the entire fight, in a fight where we do not know what happened. Maybe Trance Kuja lost because he is very slow in comparison? Maybe he lost because he was too overconfident? Or maybe it was what most FF villain battles are and it was PIS? Using your A>B>C logic and completely ignoring everything else, the FFV, FFIX, FFVIII, and FFIII parties are all universal in power because they beat universal characters. FF is practically built on PIS.
Stop strawmanning my argument, it is not just that she has no feats, we cannot even powerscale her abilities.
Big headedness? Oh dear no, when one considers the incredible vastness of my intellect, I am being quite modest.
1. They generally don't, most FF characters do not. Yes, because of AC, we were given a more clear idea of the capabilities of the party. Once again, stop strawmanning my argument. An individual character does not necessarily need feats, if Zidane and the party were confirmed bullet-timers for instance, we could safely assume that Beatrix is a bullet-timer as well, and is in fact faster than the party so could do it with less effort. "Things" like AC? Not every FF character from one of the older games lacks feats, I already ****ing brought up some that did. Thing is, you still have failed to quantify the statistical abilities of the FFIX party, so you are just arguing out of your ass at this point, prove up or shut up.
2. I am very well aware it is, and am also aware that I am not technically using it. That would be an argument from ignorance, stating that because it has not been proven true, it must be false. I am saying that because they have yet to prove they are stronger than Cloud, it is safer to assume they are not. Kind of like how it is safer to assume that some random guy off of the street would not be able to beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match because he has nothing to prove he could.
Then please tell me why you think Cloud would win? Is it based on his blonde emo hair? Or maybe because his sword is bigger? Ooooooh wait no, it must be because his shirt only has one sleeve! I think Cloud would probably win because based on everything we know, Cloud is more impressive, Beatrix may be an FTL Multiverse buster who can fire radioactive breast-milk, but she has not proven to be one yet, she has not proven to be near Cloud's level, nor have the people she has beaten.
3. Well the most pressing difference seems to be that FFVII is far more technologically advanced than FFIX is and the only reason people like Cloud exist is due to genetic super-soldier programs using the DNA of a nigh-godlike being. Why would I assume they are the same? They are different universes, connected only by being made by the same company and with a few of the series' trademarks, are you implying all FF verses are the same? You would have to prove such a statement, I do not need to prove they are not, the burden of proof is in fact on you.
4. Then stfu and DO SO. If you can quantify them, be my guest. She was stronger than Zidane, the party that fought Kuja then had not fought Beatrix in a while. Are you implying Beatrix<Kuja? Funny, Queen Brahne did not think so, which was a sore point for Beatrix, having to take a backseat to Kuja and his Black Mages. The difference is one is the final boss (Not counting Necron), which are nearly always PIS. Or can the FFIX party perform universal feats and survive such attacks? Necron was a universe ender.
5. Funny, because based on what I have seen, you would not have been a match for me a year ago. You have been repeating the same illogical argument this entire thread.
1. Okay, you think Advent Children is an accurate representation of the characters abilities? Then Dissidia must be too, right? Since the fights are all Advent Children fights in that game. Thus, Zidane can do Advent Children feats too, since he does so in Dissidia, and since Beatrix is far stronger than Zidane, who was pulling Advent Children attacks, we can logically conclude that Beatrix not only can perform those feats, but is likely better than Cloud as she schools Zidane, who was performing right along with Cloud.
2. You basically just repeated the fallacy with different words. When it comes down to it, you said Cloud can beat the entire FF9 team, because they haven't shown that they could beat him. That's the fallacy right there. An appeal to ignorance. If you said the guy on the street couldn't beat Mike Tyson because he hasn't shown he can, you are performing the fallacy right there too. The guy probably couldn't beat Mike Tyson, but your reasoning for getting to that conclusion was fallacious, just as it was with the FF9 party. And so cannot be used to support the conclusion.
3. That's not quite what I meant. I mean that feats would mean the same in one world as they did in another unless you have reason to think otherwise. For example, defeating a whole army of soldiers would be just as impressive in FF9 as it would be in FF7.
4. I don't think the fight with Kuja was necessarily PIS. Ultima obviously kills him when he uses it, for some reason, even though it didn't before. Whatever the reason, he couldn't use it in a fight as it would kill him in the process. It's like a suicide bomb attack. It's useless in a fight. It's like Time Compression. Sure Time Compression would beat pretty much anyone (except really good friends) if used before the fight. But since it takes lots of preparation, and she needs a machine and another possessed girl to do it, in a one on one fight with Ultimicia Time Compression is useless. Sure, Ultima could potentially take out enemies if you get them with it BEFORE the fight starts, but in an actual fight, it's practically useless. Just like I wouldn't consider Ultimicia more powerful than someone because she has Time Compression, I wouldn't consider Kuja more powerful because he has Ultima.
5. Well, you have certainly come down a ways in a year then.
6. Uh... you realize you just dissed yourself, right? You just said your logic is anything but spectacularly amazing.
Wow... I never thought that Beatrix Vs. Cloud was about to get into a debate.
Well, nothing to add really... But just pointing out that Dissidia may be not canon, so I don't know if you can use Zidane's feats, and Beatrix has not been introduced in that game.
1. You're confusing what I think with factual information. Dissidia is not canon like AC is. They are all Advent Children fights? Why...? Because they do t3h soopa flips and aerial combatz!? Something AC certainly was not the first to do. Zidane can do Advent Children feats too? Oh, so you can prove he can effortlessly deflect bullets, carve apart large sections of building, and knock giant monsters down to the ground with his sword? No, you cannot. Although I have come to not expect much from you, this is a really bad point, even for one such as you.
2. No, I did not. I acknowledge it possible that Zidane may be stronger than Cloud, but probable? Facts are, we do in fact know that Cloud and friend's displays of fighting abilities vastly outstrip those of the FFIX party, so based on this information we must assume that Ckoud is stronger. I think he could beat them that easily because there is not so much as an implication that they would be able to handle his speed. Their only hope would be an Eidolon. Mike Tyson is a far better fighter than the majority of the world's fighters, correct? If some random guy on the street walks by, or better yet if someone whom I know and who has never proven to be near the fighter Tyson is walks by (This example is more similar to the topic at hand), then I can safely assume that they cannot beat Tyson. The possibility exists, of course, but is it probable? Absolutely not. Tell me then oh vastly inferior semi-sentient life-form, how would you conclude Cloud can beat Zidane/Beatrix/Whatever.
3. Only soldiers in FFVII possess far greater technology, like firearms, grenades, military vehicles, etc. They also possess magic, via materia. What do garden variety FFIX soldiers have above this? Also, a hundred soldiers hardly constitutes an army.
4. Oh? Why not? Considering we... Know he can use it in a fight and he has? Also, Kuja can kind of, you know, fly. He does not need to be near the party to use it. Also, just looked it up, that particular Ultima was INTENDED as a suicide attack, he fired it directly at himself and the party, he does not need to do so. So yeah, you are wrong.
5. I would say I have gone up. This should not surprise me though, this would not be the first time an inferior creature could not comprehend my superior logical abilities and intellect.
They are Advent Children fights because they were made to look and feel like Advent Children fights. It's unmistakable. Not one of the characters from Dissidia could do what they do in their original games. And Cloud couldn't do what he did in Advent Children originally. They decided to screw what was realistic and go solely on what looks cool. Again, they said so themselves. That's just the style they used. Zidane comes along on the ride just like everyone else. We can see this new battle style being applied to more than just FF7.
"Most people in the world can't beat Mike Tyson, thus this guy probably can't"
Is a MUCH different argument than
"This guy hasn't shown that he can beat Mike Tyson, thus he can't."
You were applying the second argument when you said the FF9 party hasn't shown themselves to be stronger than Cloud. The second one is a fallacy. Thus, your argument was fallacious.
Now you changed it to: The FF9 party hasn't shown they can beat Cloud, thus they probably can't? Which is still flawed reasoning. You need reasons other than "They haven't shown it" to be able to conclude something like that. Tell me WHY the FF9 party seems inferior to Cloud, and I don't want your evidence to be: "They've never shown themselves special."
Again, you missed the point. Defeating an army of Alexandrian soldiers single handedly means the same thing in both worlds.
I said SMALL army. 100 soldiers isn't a scouting party.
That makes no sense. Where did you read that? And anyway, they still defeated Necron.
You offer no proof for the second part of your sentence. "Because" is not evidence. How do you know they were made to look and feel like Advent Children fights? You're using what the developers said in one of their interviews for the movie.
This:
"The original characters have evolved so we’re aiming for the textures and atmosphere to feel real, but with the modeling we’re not looking for realism. As for the rest, we’ll go with what looks cool. The same goes for things like direction, and the battle scenes too, but by contrast we didn’t make it too realistic. I’m having the development team do things that are really exaggerated like the technique employed in anime and manga and such, where within a realistic atmosphere you have things that are done non-realistically, like the modeling of the characters in AC"
I agree with some of the Advent Children's incoherences, but we all know that interview is precisely for Advent Children. I want you to find me where it says something about Dissidia being related to Advent Children fights, because Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus, even the new games Square-Enix is releasing like Final Fantasy XIII have got the same kind of CG technology, and the fights aren't like the Dissidia ones. Dissidia may not be canon either, we don't know, so why are you using it now to help Beatrix? Advent Children is canon to Final Fantasy VII, it's unfair that only VII got a movie but we have to deal with it.
GrieverSquall, let's be honest here. The Dissidia fights looks JUST like AC children. Look at the explanation you provided. That quote, while talking about Advent Children, also works for Dissidia. If you didn't know it was said about Advent Children, you might think they were talking about Dissidia here.
"I’m having the development team do things that are really exaggerated like the technique employed in anime and manga and such, where within a realistic atmosphere you have things that are done non-realistically,"
That's true of Dissidia too. The fights are just as exaggerated in Dissidia as they are in Advent Children. Almost everyone see's this.
If you are looking for a quote saying specifically that the game was suppose to look like Advent Children, you won't get it. Because I don't have it. I'm using a little common sense to draw that conclusion.
Also, Crisis Core doesn't do that, huh? Are you sure?
That interview works for Dissidia? Except isn't for Dissidia. All I'm saying is that they are using new and modern CG technology to make the games. You can't use Dissidia to help Beatrix, I think Dissidia isn't canon.
What about Kingdom Hearts? They used the same technology to make that game, very similar to Dissidia. Advent Children looks like Matrix fights.
Also, we can logically decide if they are inaccurate or not, but I don't have time for that.
Yes. But Crisis Core is canon to Final Fantasy VII, that's the difference. In the reactor scene when Sephiroth stabs Cloud, we can see Cloud doing some high jump when he attacks Sephiroth with the Buster Sword. If that didn't happen in the original Final Fantasy VII game, then it's a ret-con.
That's all, I don't want to interfere in your debate.
New and Modern CG technology and New and Modern battle style. That's the point. This style of fighting is new, it JUST happened. And it isn't just being applied to FF7, but to many games. Dissidia is an example. That's the direction they decided to take the fighting, regardless of the inconsistencies it brings up. They just want it to "look cool". You cannot use Advent Children to show Cloud is superior to the other FF characters, or there wouldn't even be a Cloud vs. Squall debate at all.
Either Cloud can't really do what he does in Advent Children, or it's a change that brings with it the rest of Final Fantasy. Either way, Advent Children can't be used to show Cloud's dominance over the other characters.
Not really, that is like a real-time RPG, that's why is different from turn-based RPGs. I just searched for a Dissidia interview and I found this:
"TA: This game's development team is behind the battle scenes of the PS2 Action-RPG game "Kingdom Hearts 2". I thought it would be fun if we incorporated the amount of freedom that comes with 3D into a fighting game. Because there aren't that many fighting games with an Action-RPG style concept, I thought the players' expectations would be a little low too."
They made Dissidia's gameplay using Kingdom Hearts as reference, not Advent Children. As for Advent Children, Square-Enix stated that they are using the movie as referene to make Final Fantasy Versus XIII, the fights will be made Advent Children-like. I have read that in a interview.
I agree about Cloud there, but I'm not using anything from the movie, don't worry. I just named the reactor scene when we see Cloud doing some super jump with the Buster Sword, if that didn't happen in the original game, it's a ret-con.
1.) I don't think they based the action off of Kingdom Hearts, they just have the same development team and wanted to do a battle system that was a Action-RPG type, Like Kingdom Hearts.
2.) Have you seen Kingdom Heart's fights? They are Advent Children like as well. The last battle has Sora jumping sky scrapers and cutting through entire buildings. Just like Advent Children.
Wait... you agree about Cloud? Then Advent Children doesn't show Cloud above Beatrix. My point the whole time.
They're talking about the battles and the action is pretty much present as well. They based those off of Kingdom Hearts since they have the same development team that worked on Kingdom Hearts' real-time RPG battles.
You think so...? Cuz real-time RPGs in general are like that and Kingdom Hearts came before Advent Children. I don't think they are basing their work on Advent Children, just Final Fantasy Versus XIII because is stated they're doing it.
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Apr 26th, 2010 11:33 AM
You are right, technically, we do not "know" Cloud would win, what we do know however is that the FFIX party and Beatrix have never proven to be more powerful than Cloud, why should we assume they are? You seem to think Beatrix is this powerful based on... Really nothing. You just say it as if I should accept it, that's circular reasoning.
My logic has served me well, and, although this comes to no surprise considerin the incredibly vast nature of my intellect, my logic has indeed served me well on this site. 
