She's drawn blood as often with her bare fists like Marvel has? Yeah, factoring in her gear, she can do significant damage, but Captain Marvel with his bare hands has drawn blood from Superman on more than one occasion. He's directly stalemated Superman in terms of strength and Superman himself conceded that he views Marvel as his equal in virtually all aspects as well as actually giving him the edge in a head-to-head confrontation. DC's always shown Marvel to be either Superman's equal or a hair or two below him, something Diana hasn't been shown. In a direct encounter based solely on physical might and endurance, Captain Marvel/Black Adam > Wonder Woman.
Do you believe that Wonder Woman can draw blood from Black Adam and trade blow for blow with him and be on even footing afterwards?
As a whole, Diana's stats, skills, and gears, put her in that top-tier league, and while she certainly could beat Captain Marvel one-on-one a bit easier than vice versa, she's not as strong as him physically.
With Cheetah? What about it? Superman made a blanket statement in the heat of battle, comparing Cheetah's might to Captain Marvel or Diana, who, aside from J'onn, are two of the most powerful beings on the planet aside from Superman himself. There are more statements supporting Captain Marvel and Superman being equal than Wonder Woman and Superman being equal. Diana has conceded that Superman is stronger than her. Meanwhile, both Marvel and Superman - and DC - continue to believe that Superman and Captain Marvel are pretty damn close to being flat out equal when it comes to strength.
If you think Diana = CM in strength/durability/power/etc, then you also think Diana = Black Adam in those areas, correct?
Right now I"m talking about physical attack. Don't bring up too many points at once when I'm addressing one. You said Diana with trinkets would be able to match these guys. The link I posted was str8 from Superman's mouth about PHYSICAL power. He says CM and Diana punch like that beast. Which was able to physically over power him. Address that first. Superman concedes that the beast that physically over powered him had a PUNCH like Diana or Captain Marvel. Now before I post how many times WW has drawn blood from Superman with physical attacks, I want you to address the LINK on it's merits. Not what DC says. The link on it's merits. Explain it.
Well, if you think Diana and Captain Marvel are really equals in strength based off of that one scan, then you're pretty much also saying that she's equal in strength to both Black Adam and Superman as well. In which case, that's pretty misinformed.
Read the scan you posted:
"That thing has a punch like Diana...or Captain Marvel--!"
Look at how that sentence is written. He mentions Diana first, takes a pause, and then adds "Or Captain Marvel!" He compared the strike to Diana first, considers it, and then concedes it could very well be Marvel-level strength, which is, time and time again, shown to be either equal to Superman or just barely below his own. That's Superman putting their strength in the pecking order it falls down to. Diana's never had that strength comparison to Superman. She's strong, sure, and strong enough to make either Supes or Marv feel it, but she's a level behind them.
LOL. Are you kidding me. you are grasping for straws. He didn't pause in the way you are trying to illustrate. Superman didn't put any strength in any pecking order. Is that the best you could come up with? Before I post Diana drawing blood from Superman. You sure this is the best you could come up with? Superman on panel compares the beast strength to Captain Marvel and Diana. Lulz at the attempt to give a pecking order.
Last edited by Comics Queen on Mar 10th, 2011 at 04:22 AM
He paused as he was thinking, hence the "..." in the sentence. He mentioned Diana first, thought more of it, and then mentioned Marvel, who has a multitude of showings which support the Marvel and Superman comparison; hell, it's one of comics biggest and oldest rivalries, and the end result generally winds up with them being equal.
If you seriously believe that they're equals, you believe that she's on par with Black Adam and Superman, and she's not. Diana doesn't think she's as strong as Superman. Superman doesn't think Diana is as strong as he is. Superman thinks Captain Marvel is as strong as he is and is his equal. It's not hard to understand.
Your entire basis of Wonder Woman being equal to strength to Marvel is from War of the Gods, in which Captain Marvel wasn't anywhere close to being in his right mind, and a single panel in which Superman compares the striking power from a short lived villain to Diana and then Captain Marvel. Even if that scan was intended exactly as how you believe it should be, decades worth of stories still point to Captain Marvel being Superman's equal or extremely close rival and Diana being noticeably behind him in that department.
Do you need me to post scans of Diana conceding Kal is stronger than her? And then post scans of Superman admitting Captain Marvel is his equal?
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Last edited by JakeTheBank on Mar 10th, 2011 at 04:29 AM
The scan cleary says that it is the concussive force that draws Superman's blood. Her Strength. (please log in to view the image)
Has Captain Marvel ever landed so many blows to Superman so swiftly and caused him to kneel? Note in this scan Supeman is bleeding from his mouth at this point. Notice the blood dripping from his face. She used physical force to his face. (please log in to view the image)
That scan doesn't clearly say anything about concussive force drawing blood. Ringing his ears and stating Gaea knows what else, sure. If you think that's beyond Captain's capabilities, you're mistaken.
Second scan supports Diana's hand to hand prowess more so than her strength. She's more skilled than Superman, Marvel, or Black Adam. And that doesn't support the argument that Diana is equal to Captain Marvel in terms of physical strength.
Third scan? Captain Marvel left the JLA (technically JLI) after a short period of time. If anything, he's more JSA affiliated or a solo hero, Marvel Family not withstanding.
Fourth scan? Considering the lasso has depowered Captain Marvel at least twice, I wouldn't send him after Diana, either. She matches up better against Marvel because of that fact.
None of those scans prove Diana is as strong as Captain Marvel/Black Adam/Superman. It shows people's opinions of her overall and her skill but doesn't prove what you're trying to say.
And yet you have proven nothing of what you say. Superman says Wonder Woman is EARTH"S next line of defense after himself. Not the JLA's next line of defense. Lulz at trying to get around that fact. You missed the point of Diana beating the crap out of Superman in the scan. When has CM ever landed so many blows and made Superman kneel? AFTER a sun amp mind you.
Arm Wresting scans mean little. Since those were weaker Supermen. The long hair, old drawings seem like Jurgen's Superman. Also, Superman says CM"s powers are magic based, Toe to toe he has the advantage. Nothing to do with raw strength or power. Superman is giving marvel the advantage because of magic. Also that entire fight was a set up. At any rate, Wondy has done better, longer lasting damage to Supers. She's punched Superman further. Kicked him further, landed more disabling blows, Etc.
Last edited by Comics Queen on Mar 10th, 2011 at 05:03 AM
So you're going to dismiss all of those scans? You still haven't shown Diana has ever in her career stalemated Superman in a direct case of strength pitted against strength. Captain Marvel has. Twice. And if we're going to write off Captain Marvel's advantages as magic as the reason why he does so good against Superman, what about Diana? She's just as magic as he is. Her punches don't do "+ magic damage" because of her origins and by default, neither does Marvel. The only time Marvel deals "magic damage" is when he wraps his fists in magical lightning - like the time he KOed an unsuspecting Superman in three shots - or when he calls down magical lightning via "SHAZAM!".
Superman considers Marvel his equal in every way. Superman gets stalemated by Marvel. Superman admits Marvel has the edge toe-to-toe. It's not hard to see what numerous writers have been saying for decades. I get that you like Wonder Woman; really, I do. She's away and far my favorite superheroine in comics, but in terms of strength and durability, she's not in Marvel's league, and therefore, not in Black Adam's league, and therefore, not in Superman's.
I discounted the scans because they are from the DAN JURGENS depowered Superman era. Neither Orion nor DS have arm wrestled Superman either and we know they are his equals in strength. Arm wrestling is not a prereq. Diana doesn't wrap her fist in magic. Superman gives marvel the edge, while marvel is NOT wrapping himself in magic. Thus Marvel's fist are charged with magic somehow. Just like how Atlas was kicking Superman's ass with magic yet no magic amp was actually directly attributed to the strikes. You have not shown anything that shows Marvel doing as well against Superman as Wonder Woman does. You have to prove your case. Right now you haven't.
Then how come Diana by her own admission has claimed her strength nearly matches Superman or that she's almost as strong as him whereas multiple parties all agree that the gap between Captain Marvel and Superman is non-existent or at best, minute? Orion and Darkseid also have feats to directly support that claim as well as statements from a variety of characters. Captain Marvel doesn't magically amp his fists all the time, either. Case in point, in Morrison's JLA is one example when Marvel did that. Black Adam has the same ability. But without the magical lightning, they're still equals in strength to Superman based on feats and how they've fought him.
I've showed you Captain Marvel stalemating Superman in a direct comparison of strength. Direct. I've shown you a multitude of scans of Superman conceding Marvel is his equal without factoring in magic. I've shown you Superman, when factoring in magic, giving Marvel the edge.
DC Comics and a majority of comic book fans here and in general all believe Captain Marvel and Superman are equals or that Marvel is slightly below - or in some cases - slightly above Superman. Wonder Woman's always been shown to be < Superman in the strength department. I don't understand what's hard to grasp about something that a vast majority of various well informed people already know.
What people already know? You didn't show anything. You didn't show CM doing half the Dmg to Superman that WW has. You didn't show CM making lasting injury to Superman as WW has. What have you shown? Old scans from jurgens era Superman?
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Mar 10th, 2011 02:46 AM
