Yeah, that's the trouble with only using the movies as source material. They glossed over a LOT of stuff.
Narsil was no Stormbringer, sure, but what is? (Seriously, what is? That things practically the most overpowered sword in fantasy, and it pisses me off..)
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The The Fall of Gondolin was an earlier work of tolkien and the balrogs did die in the dozens. Tolkien made them more powerful later on as he strengthened his mythology. I wouldn't be surprised that the maiar were getting killed left and right in his earlier works because, afterall, Melkor was hurt by a spider like creature. The name escapes me.
Now tell me if Gothmog, a Balrog who died by getting helmet stabbed and drowning equal to the Balrog of Moria? The balrog of moria single handedly drove out the dwarves, provoked gandalf to tell his party to run because their weapons will not work against him.
I'm picking that balrog over Smaug.
Also, I think the Maiar if vulnerable, were only vulnerable because of the body they took as host. Gandalf, Saruman were old men, although stronger than they looked but not bullet proof and so could be killed.
The balrog of Moria in contrast had a powerful form and would be harder to kill by medieval weaponry than a maiar in a old man's body.
Last edited by Diesldude on Feb 22nd, 2013 at 09:21 AM
I don`t recall Gothmog being drowned, in Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales the fight is just described as the Balrog and Ecthelion killing each other in Gondolin`s marketplace. Earlier drafts may have had the Balrogs as less formidable, but the published main works certainly show them as enormously powerful in all apperances. Also the elves wielded great power in the past, balrogs getting killed by them is no shame at all. Fingolfin dueled Melkor himself and wounded him greatly.
Balrogs are certainly Maiar/angels, even the name means power-demon in elven.
Oh and Ungoliant was not just some "spider-creature". She was from the void outside, a being not of Eru`s (God`s) creation. And Shelob`s mom by the way.
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Last edited by Mshinu on Feb 22nd, 2013 at 09:40 AM
Yeah he fell after getting stabbed and drowned. I'm going to find a ebook version of it and see if can that part into here. LOL
but who knows, maybe the helmet that stabbed him the chest was magical. :-)
Ungoliant. And quit calling the Silmarillion one of his "earlier works". He was working on it after LotR.
Smaug also "single handedly drove out the dwarves"...
And, yes, that's how Gothmog, mightiest of the Balrogs, died. And nothing Tolkien has written indicates he retconned it.
Maiar are vulnerable to weapons... We see this again and again. Heck, even Morgoth was hurt by a weapon. And while a Balrog being large and monstrous would likely be harder to slay than a man, a dragon would be difficult as well.
No.
Gandalf told Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli that Sauron was more powerful than him.
Edit: Here we are.
"And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. "
"I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still."
No.
Last edited by ares834 on Feb 22nd, 2013 at 10:00 AM
Smaug was the greatest of the fire Dragons in the third Age. Durins Bane was "just" a normal Balrog. A Maiar though powerful can still be less powerful then a great Hero of Man, Dwarf or Elf. Especially the Elves had heroes who were more then capable enough to defeat Sauron or give even Melkor(Morgoth) a fight. The Wizards or Istari were depowered Maiar, depowered because they were given a mortal Form. Gandalf was the second in power and when he returned as Gandalf the White he was "just" slightly more powerful then Saruman the white (who was less powerful, since he became Saruman the many colored).
All in all. Gandalf the Grey died but defeated the Balrog in their 10 Day battle. However he was amped. He had Glamdring and Narya the Ring of Fire, one of the 3 Elven rings of Power. Fighting a foe whose greatest weapon is fire with a ring that gives you power over fire is a good advantage.
Gandalf avoided a direct confrontation against Smaug. I think Smaug is slightly more powerful. The Balrog killed two Dwaven Kings within 2 Years, Smaug took Erebor within a very short time and Erebor had a more powerful Army IIRC.
I would say Gandalf the Grey /amped >= Balrog
Gandalf the White /amped >= Smaug > Gandalf the Grey /amped
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- Glorfindel vs. a Balrog: both perished
- Echtelion vs. Gothmog: both perished
- Gandalf vs. a Balrog: both perished
There were four battles with Dragons:
- Turin vs. Glaurung: Turin killed the dragon without dying himself
- Eärendil vs. Ancalagon: Eärendil killed the dragon
- Fram vs. Scatha: Fram killed the dragon
- Bard vs. Smaug: Bard killed the dragon
Can any conclusion be made from this? The Balrogs fought with two Eldar and a Maia, and all of them perished in the fight.
The Dragons fought with three men and a half-elf and none of the latter died in combat.
Do I really have to say it out loud? The Balrogs would win over dragons any day!
Mostly spot on.. but you're forgetting that Ganfalf also tried to run from the balrog and avoid a direct confrontation with him as well.. He just had to stop to save the mission and the others. He didn't even want to go through The mines knowing what was there.. so we can't act like he was okay with fighting the balrog but not smaug.. that just isn't so.
Also, this was an inferior balrog to Gothmog Lord of the Balrogs. Gothmog would beat Sauron and has much better feats thatn Sauron. So no, I wouldn't put Saruman, Gandalf or Sauron above Gothmog or even some other powerful balrogs. After all they are all Maiar
Listen people,Durins Bane is resistant from fire unlike Smaug,who is not.And Smaugs most powerful attacks are fire-breath ones,like for every dragon.So,Smaug can only hit him to damage him,but he would probably catch on fire himself too.And also,Smaugs weapon is some random fire-breath,unformed fire,unlike balrogs weapons, sword and a whip formed of fire.Basically,we can compare Smaug with some guy who throws rocks,while balrog is like someone fighting with sword made of rock.
Durins Bane:-fire resistant
-uses fire FORMED into sword or whip
Smaug:-any "hit weapons" resistant,excluding the Black Arrow
-uses UNFORMED fire attacks
-can hit or bite
CONCLUSION: Smaug is useless against Durins Bane.
And even IF Smaug somehow beats Durins Bane,only his body would "die".
And how could some mortal heroes be mightier than godlike spirits?
Please send me a link if there is an explanation.
LOL,if human can beat Smaug,WTF do you think balrog,who is way bigger than humans,can do to Smaug along with all this advantages.
xD
And Smaug is not very or way bigger than balrog.
But,yeah,he is bigger and more intelligent than balrog.
Last edited by Finston on Jan 10th, 2014 at 12:28 PM
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