quote: (post)

Originally posted by Master Han




Didn't Kit Fisto kick his ass?

quote: (post)

Originally posted by Zampanó
Before I begin, please note that I've read your 4 part post and a few from the past page, as well. But the bulk of that material has been in response to rather haphazard presentation of possible pro-Sith points. If you feel that I've repeated something you've addressed, you may quote yourself. However, I feel that in whole, the arguments in Kas'im's favor are more powerful than the board's established consensus about Kenobi's abilities. (Note: this does not mean that I am closed to the possibility of such an argument in favor of Kenobi, just that without a novel approach to his defense, I'm disinclined to side with the Jedi in this case.)

My line of thought was fairly straightforward. Neither combatant is known for attacking with the Force, so flashy attacks will not decide the day. As Masters of their orders their metaphysical abilities cannot be disregarded. So the second point of focus must be on passive usage of the Force. My intuition is that the two are roughly even in this area, due to a specific interaction of their fighting styles. Finally, a decision about deadliness will boil down to technical mastery of the blade. In my eyes, at least, Kas'im has the advantage here. I admit that this is a subjective call, but it seems to me that for these discussions to be valuable at all requires that we attempt to understand one anothers' mode of thought first, before attempting to find flaws. Here, then, are my grounds for voting Kas'im in the poll.

First, the battle is most likely not going to resemble Yoda/Dooku in AotC. Neither is an ostentatious user of the Force. Kas'im has only been noted to blow open a "heavy door" with telekinesis and push his opponent down some stairs. Attacking with powers is not part of his combat style. Kenobi is a Jedi, who make a point not to use the Force as a weapon. Even in the Clone Wars series, I've only ever seen Kenobi use his telekinesis as a last-minute defensive tool to get himself out of corners. Meanwhile, Kas'im's defense has defended against a Force wave of sufficient strength to destroy an ancient temple. So Kas'im's offensive capabilities are either minimal or unsubstantiated while his defense is more than sufficient for the unlikely event of an attack from Kenobi.

Notably, the Force is at its most powerful when not being used to propel bricks. Instead, a gentle nudge of awareness, or the sharpening of reflexes can alter the flow of history, and certainly an armed conflict. Both combatants have access to this buff; even untrained users (like Anakin or Des) experience brief flashes of precognition. Precog plays a much larger part in duels than mere physique. However, this is another area where strength can be overridden by skill. Kas'im explains to Bane exactly why he emphasizes technical proficiency so forcefully:

Kas'im himself designed these sequences, "carefully choreographed series of multiple strikes and parries drawn from [...]chosen style(s)" for all of the existent lightsaber forms for many different types of weapon: saber, staff, and whip, along with every other weapon-type used by any Sith Student in the era. A general knowledge of weapons and forms is probably shared by most masters whose students choose a fighting style alien to their specialty. However, because of Drew's very strange formalization of lightsaber combat, Kas'im has essentially recreated or distilled all seven styles for all types of weapons. He is the originator of lightsaber combat as it is practiced in the era. More to the point, he is "beyond" such tricks:

Kas'im commends Bane on moving beyond rote repetition of his methods, indicating that Kas'im himself is beyond that level in all of the areas where those methods are used, to wit, all seven forms of lightsaber combat. (Also, this confirms that there are actually mechanical differences between forms, as opposed to just varying philosophies.) This is valuable in fighting even non-sequence users: "So by studying different styles, I could negate that advantage?" Kas'im has done exactly that. In much the way that Bane has internalized his shortcuts and grasped the overall dynamics of a given form, Kas'im has internalized lightsaber combat as a whole. This does not make him invulnerable, but it certainly "frees up" his mind for the "battle of wills" that occupies the higher planes of the conflict.

Meanwhile, Kenobi's precognition is powerful. Possibly even uniquely good, he is described repeatedly (and poetically!) as attaining an unrivaled level of closeness with the Force. This is well chronicled in the Ep III novelization but I am not in charge of marshaling quotes for Kenobi. Suffice it to say that he is highly praised. However, this very openness to the Force is painted as something of a liability:

So even if Kenobi's precognition is particularly good, it faces a brand of Force usage that is specifically unhelpful to Jedi. Moreover, it faces a library of formal techniques that beggars other instructors as well as intuitive alternatives borne out of a creator's intimate understanding of the all possible forms involved in the fight. Thus, Kenobi's good precognition is more than matched by Kas'im's above average capacity available for "obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses."

So the only possible decisive characteristic comes down to lightsaber technique. But Kenobi's mastery of alternate forms is not nearly as advanced as Kas'im's own. As I've quoted and explained repeatedly, Kas'im is the source for the entirety of his students' muscle-memory for all of the variants of weapons they use. Meanwhile, Kenobi's attempts to use other forms of combat are labeled as "laughable" by Dooku. This is not an area where I believe that inter-era comparisons are valuable; the individual combatants have objective levels of knowledge: one is innovating on all fronts, while the other is noteworthy in one, and passable in others. That decision is not tough.




I'd like to dip into the rest of the debate only briefly:
Bane has a prodigious learning-rate. He consumed Holocrons (noted to contain entire libraries' worth of knowledge) with extreme speed. For him to internalize the Magnificent’s combat style within a short apprenticeship (months upon months of training, according to the book) is not out-of character, and speaks to Bane's abilities rather than a shortcoming in Kas'im.

Additionally, I found your "math" to be a little specious; "the average shortest noticeable dark period" is 16 milliseconds according to the Wiki. Kas'im's blades are said to multiply in appearance while using Jar'Kai: "He seemed to wield six blades rather than two." So each blade (there are two of them) is moving to three different distinct places each 16 milliseconds. Not "sheets of plasma" but distinct blades. Thus, (6 strikes) per (.016 seconds) = 375 strikes per second. Using math on hyperbole is rarely a good idea.