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You have ignored the context in each and every Maul fight. If ILS had balls and be like the character he pretends to emulate he wouldn't let this slide.
"maul was pre prime", Kenobi was pre prime. Maul was pre prime in season 4, he was not pre prime in season 5.
"Nah they were shown as peers in every fight."
Peers=/ equal and neither fight showed them as equals.
In season 4 despite being thoroughly beaten, knocked out, mentally thrown off beforehand, kenobi had maul at his mercy twice(but was distracted by ventress). Maul then used dun moch(exploiting his history with kenobi=/ skills as a duelist) and after being driven back at the start exploited kenobi's recklessness and proceeded to outmatch him. Kenobi's ability to tank as many hits as he did from maul in spite of the beating he experienced before hand also showcases that any physical strength or durability edge maul may have is likely to be meaningless here.
In season 5 maul(in his prime) and kenobi(pre prime) fought evenly with a 1 v 1(doesn't make them equals as duelists). Oppress kills galia and kenobi disorientates maul with a kick. Then focusing himself in spite of use of a secondary style he is able to disorientate and drive maul back(making use of his superior speed) while simultaneously making quick work of oppress To save his brother maul blindsides kenobi and puts him against the wall. Kenobi then disarms(literally) oppress. An nrahed maul(hence the scream) then blows back kenobi and brings down the tunnel.
Kenobi had the rest of season 5, 6, dark desciple, and the 6 month outer rim seiges to improve. During the outer rim seiges he was nearly constantly sparring anakin. So logically kenobi as of rots is superior to the tcw kenobi who had shown himself as the superior sworsman to maul. How is maul=kenobi as a duelist?
"But hey, don't let that stop your trolling"
Its not trolling, its common sense. Maul isn't equal kenobi as a duelist
1) Maul was said to be at his peak in his fight against Sidious's in S5. That's way after his fights with Kenobi. And pretty much everyone agrees his peak was in SOD. But hey keep up this fantasy that Obi-Wan kept improving, but Maul didn't.
Their fights kept going either way. Obi-Wan was winning the first one, but half way through Maul gained the upper hand and had him running after that. Their second duel they were fighting to a standstill. The third duel Maul had help, and Obi-Wan was technically winning, but Maul still held his own the entire time and ended it by Force slamming Kenobi.
And that's not including TPM fight where Obi-Wan won in the end, but Maul was clearly the superior fighter.
So yeah every one of their fights have been capable of swinging either way. Ergo they've always fought as peers.
2) Strange that Kenobi getting slapped around a little bit is supposed to be a great excuse for him to lose to a Maul who hasn't fought in 10+ years. Whereas Kanan after being tortured for days gives the best Saber performance of his life against the GI in his prime.
Didn't realise Kanan was more masterful at Force healing than Obi-Wan
Of course it took time for Maul to gain the upper hand. He just got new robotic legs and hadn't been in a Saber duel in 10+ years lmao
3) LOL at that kick disorientating Maul. That kick was to create distance between Obi-Wan and Maul. It didn't even floor Maul, and Maul was actually driving Kenobi back the entire fight and laughing at him. That fight was a stalemate. Deal with it hater.
4) Maul had just as much time to improve Lmao. He never died Remember.. And even if he stopped improving at some point, it's inconsequential given his rate of improvement during TCW was greater than Obi-Wan's.
5) Lmao. Get your Maul hating goggles off. Every one of their fights could have gone either way. Ergo they are peers. And now they will fight once more... There's a reason he's fighting Kenobi instead of Vader Lmao.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Jan 10th, 2017 at 09:16 AM
1) sod is still at a bare minimum 6 months prior to rots(kenobi's prime). Furthermore, maul spent his time between lawless and sod captured.
2)"gettting slapped around a little". How does being knocked unconscious twice and getting thrown around and choked count as "getting slapped around a little? per feloni, kenobi was mentally off even before the beating. Furthermore maul only gained the upperhand after the use of dun moch. Even then, Kenobi was initally driving him back when enraged despite being in no phsical condition to do so. Maul did not beat kenobi through superior kill or even on par skill, he beat him through exploiting his personal history with kenobi. If you want to dismiss the fight due to maul's inexperience and being pre prime(though kenobi was obviously more pre prime), go for it, season 5 makes clear who's the better duelist.
3) maul took several seconds to recover from the kick, so yes, he was disorientated. Maul using the force to save oppress says nothing about lightsaber skill.
4) I'm assuming this is tcw maul as we have no idea yet where rebels maul stands here. And tcw maul is certainly an inferior duelist to kenobi
5) peers=/ equals and rebels maul fighting kenobi says nothing about tcw maul
Ooh he was captured? So what? He was eating junk for 10+ years in between TPM and "Revenge".
Point is after Savage died his rage would have only increased for SOD. Then if anything his rage would have gone to new levels at the end of SOD with Talzin's death. So actually ROTS Maul is probably Prime Maul.
Not that Maul and Kenobi have to improve at the exact same rate Lol
Because a bit of a slap around is literally what it was. There was no extended period of torture, or any permanent or serious injury. I see you've ignored my example of Kanan fighting the GI after days of torture.
Filoni mentioned nothing about Kenobi being hindered due to being knocked out prior. He put IT ALL down to his focus.
I also see you're still ignoring the clear massive disadvanatge Maul was at. In fact Filoni credited Maul for doing really well by winning in the state he was in.
No that's not true about the Dun Moch being the turning point. Maul began kicking Kenobi around prior to the Dun Moch.
Lmao at S5 making it clear, when Kenobi still couldn't put Maul down, even in their 1 v 1.
LOL It didn't take several seconds. He intercepted Kenobi's blade before he could kill Opress.
Maul was kicked to separate him. He was some distance away after that kick. He wasn't even floored lol.
If you want I can show you examples of opponents actually being floored and even disarmed, yet still not being defeated. Given Kenobi wasn't able to floor Maul even once in an extended 1 on 1, there was obviously no clear superiority there.
Nah, they're peers.
Rebels Maul vs Rebels Kenobi will probably just be another showing of them fighting as peers. Which will be completely consistent with all their previous battles.
First off, I'm not talking about speculative versions of maul we have no way to gauge unless you want to try and guage maul a brief inconclusive fight vs rots ahsoka(ahsoka novel) which ended up with ahsoka luring him into a trap.
I'm using tcw/sod maul because thats where we have n actual way to judge his abilities.
Second off, does any source have maul becoming more skilled while on the trash planet?(or in power for that matter as you feel the need to keep bringing that up even though that this is a dueling centric discussion). Logically speaking, Kenobi actively participating in the clone wars(and in the outer rim sieges to a higher extent than he ever did before) and constantly sparring with anakin during that time would logically lead to significant improvement. Why would maul become more skilled waitng around in malachor or being captured in sod?
Feloni doesn't have to mention it for this to be obvious. Kenobi was in no state to fight and he still had the clear upperhand prior to maul using dun moch, in capping maul twice(but being distracted by ventress needing saving vs oppress), slamiing maul's blade to the gorund multiple times, and then initally driving maul back after his use of dun moch. Maul did manage to land a flurry of kicks prior to using dun moch, a flurry of kicks kenobi took a couple of seconds to get up from. Maul gained the upperhand after being driven by exploiting kenobi's lack of control. Then it stopped being a duel(which is why they never clashed blades once after that point) and just became maul kicking the crap out of a charging kenobi. Kenobi already having been beaten extensively beforehand decided he was outmatched at that point. The very best you can argue for maul here is that due to being rusty and pre prime(which kenobi was moreso) the duel doesn't mean much. But using the duel to prove maul is an equal(ye of kenobi as a duelist is asinine.
Maul may have done well, but he certainly didn't prove himself kenobi's equal as a swordsman there.
Their fight not having a conclusion doesn't prove kenobi couldn't put maul down. Being a soresu user its natural for a fight involving kenobi to be prolonged. Kenobi then when going on the offensive(and not using his preffered form) being able to outfight both(and quickly incap oppress) and force maul to use the force(while he was focused on oppress) makes it pretty clear kenobi is the superior duelist.
I was talking about when he disorientated maul in their 1 v 1 and yes it did take maul several seconds to recover. Maul only leaped to where oppress was after kenobi jumped down and kicke doppress which took place several seconds after kenobi landed his kick(note there was time in between where oppress was impaling adi galia).
The second time he disorientated maul indicated by maul shaking his head. He also drove back maul(who as a juyo user should be doing the driving) and simultaneously was making quick work of oppress(which was why maul made use of the force in the first place)
Kenobi actually did floor maul maul with a kick in season 4 for an extended period of time. Luckily for maul, he ended up choosing to save ventress from oppress.
Kenobi doesn't have to decisively beat maul in an inconclusive fight to show superiority. Him driving maul back, disorientatign him, icapping him twice, slamming his blade to the ground multiple times, and being able to do a couple of these things while simultaneously outclassing oppress(while not using his preferred form) tell me kenobi is the superior duelist.
They are not exact peers as duelists
It certainly can be a great to even fight, but its hard to imagine kenobi not winning here(though kanan and ezra could intervene i suppose) due to being in anh which ould put kenobi at least a marginal superior to maul.
What? They've always fought as peers, with their fight being ones that can swing either way.
I mean of course there's a certain amount of speculation going on about how much they improved. Because you're just assuming ROTS Kenobi was >> TCW S5 Kenobi, even though that S5 fight is probably his best feat.
We know they both improved throughout TCW, and we know they both improved after their last fight.
So why don't we just go by their previous fights instead of speculating on who improved more afterwards..
TCW narrator says Maul has arisen with his rage more powerful than ever. Shadow Conspiracy has Kenobi noting Maul's increased power, and also has Maul noting during his fight with Sidious that he's now at his peak.
Considering what Maul had been put through, yeah that was just a bit of a slap around.
Hey Kanan got over a few days of torturing pretty quickly. I'm sure Kenobi a Council Master can get over a KO quicker.
Yes Kenobi was winning at first. It took Maul time to get back into fighting. Which is expected given it's his first proper fight in over 10 years Lol
And yes Maul kicking Kenobi probably had more of an effect on him after being KO'd previously. But given the effect Grievous's kicks always have on Kenobi (and even Ventress's), I doubt he would have tanked those kicks had he been fresh.
It's not just this fight. This is 1 of 4 fights which shows their battles have always gone back and forth.
Oh don't throw that Soresu excuse at me. It was a prolonged 1 on 1, and Kenobi showed no superiority at all. Yes Kenobi landed 1 kick. 1 kick that didn't floor Maul or give him any problems at all. All it did was separated him from Kenobi for a few seconds (which could be a break Kenobi needed). But let's not forget Maul was driving Kenobi back the whole fight, and even was smiling a lot throughout the duel. Even laughs at one point.
No Kenobi beating Opress whilst dueling Maul, in a tight environment that didn't suit the brothers but does suit soresu, doesn't prove Kenobi is Maul's superior anymore that Ventress knocking Kenobi out here @2:33 while dueling Anakin proves Ventress is Anakin's superior:
A fight between them can go either way as shown several times.
Neither of them are the most powerful Jedi/Sith, but they're both ridiculously skilled duelists.
The result will be down to the plot. We know the result. Kenobi lives to fight Vader in ANH, not Maul. But what's important is how it comes to that result. Does Kenobi stomp him, or does he get lucky and barely win with his life?
Either way I think anyone who think's it won't be an Epic fight is just kidding themselves.
As duelists they aren't exact peers with kenobi being able to gain an upperhand vs maul in spite of unfavorable circumstances
I mean of course there's a certain amount of speculation going on about how much they improved. Because you're just assuming ROTS Kenobi was >> TCW S5 Kenobi, even though that S5 fight is probably his best feat. [/QUOTE]
But it has a basis, kenobi took a more active particapation in the war over the 6 months and was nearly constantly sparring anakin for 6 months during the outer rim seiges. Furthermore kenobi was also being hardened by the war for the rest of season 5+season 6+sod+dark desciple(the outer rim seiges takes place after dark disciple). Logically kenobi would improve. And feat wise this is suggested. y beating grevious. He goes from being injured in short order vs a room full of droids to being able to avoid injury and dodge/deflect omnidirectional blasterfire from the entire utapan army. Power wise(though it isn't really that relevant here), he goes from not being able to sense dooku right behind him in season 6 to being able to sense a dooku who was trying to hide his presence from him in rots from a greater distance.
We know they both improved throughout TCW, and we know they both improved after their last fight. [/QUOTE]
Thats not being disputed here, the thing is after sod, kenobi still had dark desciple+the outer rim seiges where he was constantly in combat, and he was participating in the clone wars while maul was captured
So why don't we just go by their previous fights instead of speculating on who improved more afterwards.. [/QUOTE]
Thats exactly what I've been doing.
TCW narrator says Maul has arisen with his rage more powerful than ever. Shadow Conspiracy has Kenobi noting Maul's increased power, and also has Maul noting during his fight with Sidious that he's now at his peak. [/QUOTE]
As of season 4? Anyway power growth doesn't= dueling skill and i never disputed hat maul could have grown from revival to lawless
[/B][/QUOTE]
Considering what Maul had been put through, yeah that was just a bit of a slap around. [/QUOTE]
How is maul being tortured/ pushed in his training with sidious remotely relevant to the context of their season 4 fight?
Hey Kanan got over a few days of torturing pretty quickly. I'm sure Kenobi a Council Master can get over a KO quicker. [/QUOTE]
Kanan being tortured isn't relevant here.
Yes Kenobi was winning at first. It took Maul time to get back into fighting. Which is expected given it's his first proper fight in over 10 years Lol [/QUOTE]
And Kenobi was in no condition to fight physically. The best you can argue here is that the fight should be discarded due to context on both sides, but it doesn't indicate maul being equal. And kenobi was still able to drive maul back even after maul's use of dun moch, the tide turned when kenobi started bullrushing and swinging at nothing. Kenobi had the advtg untill the use of dun moch and even a bit after that.
And yes Maul kicking Kenobi probably had more of an effect on him after being KO'd previously. But given the effect Grievous's kicks always have on Kenobi (and even Ventress's), I doubt he would have tanked those kicks had he been
fresh. [/QUOTE]
First off grevious is stronger than maul. Second off when has kenobi failed to tank a kick from ventress? i recall him tanking kicks from and stalemating her even when his organs were melting thanks to a toxin durge released. Third off Kenobi did tank those 3 kicks(two of which were right to the skull, one of those to the chest in about 3 seconds) while physically wrecked and got up in about a second or two so I really don't see your point here. Kenobi tanking those hits and getting back up almost immediately while physically hidnered doesn't help maul's case here. Kenobi also shortly after was able to steadily drive maul back. You're also ignoring that kenobi despite his hindrances was able to incap/floor maul for several seconds twice, send him flying with another kick, and slam his blade to the ground multiple times.
[/B][/QUOTE]
It's not just this fight. This is 1 of 4 fights which shows their battles have always gone back and forth. [/QUOTE]
This and the florrum duel are the only two of their fights(disregarding tpm for obvious reasons) that ended as a duel.
Oh don't throw that Soresu excuse at me. It was a prolonged 1 on 1, and Kenobi showed no superiority at all.[/QUOTE]
I hardly call about 40 seconds(maul spent 5 seconds telling kenobi his plans, and kenobi spent about 5 seconds verbally wrecking the sith order) a "prolonged fight". It was inconclusive and it alone says nothing to indicate maul wouldn't have eventually lost. And as a soresu user, Kenobi has no prerogative to quickly gain an upper hand, maul as a juyo user, does.
Yes Kenobi landed 1 kick. 1 kick that didn't floor Maul or give him any problems at all. [/QUOTE]
Which is why it took maul several seconds just to orientate himself, right?
(he gets kicked at 1:04 and his head only perks back up at 1:11)
All it did was separated him from Kenobi for a few seconds (which could be a break Kenobi needed).[/QUOTE]
No it disorientated maul for several seconds. By the way, it took a beat up kenobi only 1 or 2 seconds get up from the flurry of kicks maul landed. So if you're going to say this didn't do anything to maul, then maul's three kicks didn't do anything to kenobi.
As for kenobi needing a break,Uh, no, kenobi kicked maul, because he noticed oppress ram into his ally.
But let's not forget Maul was driving Kenobi back the whole fight, and even was smiling a lot throughout the duel. Even laughs at one point. [/QUOTE]
Wow, one of the most defensive fighters on the mythos(for which giving ground "Is his way"(rots novelization)) gives ground to one of the most offensive fighters in the mythos! Yes that definitely means something! Its not like when kenobi focused and went on the offensive(with a secondary style) he drove maul back while making quick work of oppress! And no maul doesn't smile or laugh during the fight. Kenobi on the other hand actually mocked the entire sith order so i guess using your logic kenobi was toying with maul? No Kenobi beating Opress whilst dueling Maul [/QUOTE]
Its not like he drove maul back or disorientated him(while making short work of maul's back up) in a tight environment that didn't suit the brothers[/QUOTE]
but does suit soresu,[/QUOTE]
Right because its not like kenobi switched to ataru here, the most space taking lightsaber technique. The best you can argue is the team was hindered by being forced to take opposite sides, but maul in no way was individually hindered. Not to mention kenobi dropped his preferred stylt due to having two opponents
doesn't prove Kenobi is Maul's superior anymore that Ventress knocking Kenobi out here @2:33 while dueling Anakin proves Ventress is Anakin's superior: [/QUOTE]
Oh yes, lets take a story arc which has ventress ragdolling ankin+kenobi and then getting ragdolled(along with the vastly more powerful dooku) by a pre prime oppress at take value.
I guess pre prime oppress>dooku+ventress>ventress>anakin+kenobi>kenobi>prime oppress.
A fight between them can go either way as shown several times.
Neither of them are the most powerful Jedi/Sith, but they're both ridiculously skilled duelists.[/QUOTE]
Being the 4th and thirs most powerful jedi/sith during their irders' respective peaks is pretty impressive power wise. And both are incredibly powerful force users contrary to popular belief.
The result will be down to the plot. We know the result. Kenobi lives to fight Vader in ANH, not Maul. But what's important is how it comes to that result. Does Kenobi stomp him, or does he get lucky and barely win with his life?
Either way I think anyone who think's it won't be an Epic fight is just kidding themselves. [/QUOTE]
Rebels finales are arguably tcw level, so there;s hope
Last edited by Rockydonovang on Jan 14th, 2017 at 02:09 AM
Jan 6th, 2017 08:06 PM
