I mean he cant die but he can sure as hell get dismembered. Although gregor does have a penchant for killing someone and just leaving them there to get rezzed lol.
He is fighting 3 slower guys wearing full plate armor (which would make them even slower). The speed difference would be enormous (particularly movement speed, full plate armor tends to limit one's mobility by quite a bit).
Yes, he is a brawler, but he isn't stupid. He's not gonna charge in and keep trying to poke them with his bone claws if the bone claws aren't working.
In his fight with Creed, he was able to go toe to toe (strength to strength) against Creed (who is clearly superhuman) for a while, even threw him vertically over 10-15 feet onto some logs. He is clearly superhuman. Not Cap strong. But def quite above human.
Once you get someone in full plate on his back, it is very difficult for them to get back on their feet (takes a few very vulnerable seconds for you to get back up). It would just be a matter of simply stabbing them under the chin or thru the chinks in the armor (armpit). He might take a few glancing hits doing this, but I doubt they'd score a direct hit before he takes some one down. Dodge a sword swing, kick chest, watch one fall. Repeat on another while the other tries to get back up. Mount -> stab. Might take a hit from third. But 2 on 1 is very easy once he's gotten some distance and healed the damage.
Of course this is all speculative. We have no instances of him fighting armored opponents while he has still had his bone claws.
Normally I love reading your replies because I find you one of the most informed posters here. But you really need to read up on plate armor facts and myths. Majority of what you said are myths about knightly armor that have been debunked for decades now.
Your average soldier carries more weight with their gear than a knight does with his armor. Armor will not slow you down much, and it definitely will not slow your sword... which is the main point of attack that will be hitting Wolverine. That whole "can't get back up once you're on your back" is pure nonsense.
Shingen was not superhuman. Was not even a very big man. Wolverine was unable to overpower him.
If you can show me one, just ONE clip of Wolverine where he's ducking and dodging hits from a known skilled opponent then I'll entertain your theory that he'll only get hit with glancing hits. Because otherwise that's just plain wishful thinking.
It's also going to be very hard for him to mount a downed opponent when 2 others are swinging at his back.
1) Pls reread what I wrote. I never said you can't get back up. This is what I said:
Once you get someone in full plate on his back, it is very difficult for them to get back on their feet (takes a few very vulnerable seconds for you to get back up)
It takes a good number of seconds in the best scenarious where you aren't stunned or have the wind knocked from you after falling. Over 3 seconds if you begin on an ideal position flat on your back or stomach (Source: https://youtu.be/5hlIUrd7d1Q. See 1:09). This will not be the case in a combat scenario after a powerful kick sends you toppling down. And yes, from where I'm looking they look veryyyy vulnerable in this position.
Admittedly, my use of "very difficult" is misleading at best and completely wrong at worst. So I will retract that.
2) We don't ignore a character's other "feats" because he has a few low ones. Come on, man, let's not play the lowball game. In the same movie he was able to topple what looks like a multiton suit of power armor and wasn't overpowered (although he was at a disadvantage) by it even when iit was one arm vs one arm against the suit being in a higher position (thus it had leverage). This is Wolverine at his peak so we should use his peak "feats".
3) GoT aren't X-Men universe fast or skilled. Not even close to it. They are victims of their own realistic choreography. Relative to the worlds involved, they are slow and cumbersome compared to the very fast paced choreography used in the X-Men franchise. So you asking for Wolverine to duck and weave vs "skilled opponents (within his universe)" is a very apples to oranges comparison here.
The question should be: "was he able to keep up with the far faster and far more skilled (and oftentimes far stronger) opponents in the X-Men franchise?". Admittedly, his record isn't very good (he is hit far more often than not). But the fact that he isn't completely overwhelmed by their far superior (relative to GoT, especially these characters) speed/kill/strength, even managing to counter and block at times seems to indicate that he operates just slightly below such opponents.
Just because Batroc couldn't dodge many of Cap's hits, doesn't mean he can't dodge Bane's hits.
4) Not really. I can see it happening in one smooth motion (and I said, he'd topple 2 before attempting a mount -> stab). Mount -> stab -> roll wouldn't take more than a second or two IMO. Although he might take a few blows, I doubt that they would be dismembering/decap as long as they aren't he can keep on chugging.
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 21st, 2017 at 07:03 AM
Also, bear in mind, I have not decided who wins yet. I am very much open to debating this and deciding after as it would be a refreshing change from the crazed nonsense that pops up in any debate where h1 is involved.
However, I disagree with the fact that Logan would fight like an idiot (repeatedly ineffectually stabbing at armored opponents when his claws would not work, soaking hits that would incapacitate him, not creative enough to change tactics when he is an extremely old war veteran).
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 21st, 2017 at 07:27 AM
Also, has anyone ever seen the Hound wear full plate? AFAIK, I've only really seen him in some sort of splint mail (w/c is more vulnerable to thrusting). I know Jamie and the Mountain (even tho the Mountain wore splint in his battle with Oberyn, w/c is why the spear pierced it) wear plate mail but I don't think I've ever seen the Hound in it. Or a helmet for that matter. Has the Hound ever worn a helmet?
I gotta admit. Seems like a debate I can get excited about.
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 21st, 2017 at 08:57 AM
There we go. Thanks! Been going thru GoT episodes and had a hard time finding em. In retrospect, maybe I shoulda started with simply googling it... Lol. I forgot about the dog helmet he wore early on. Good deal!
Question for the OP:
Wonder why he wears splint mail most of the time? Since this is "peak", do we get him in his rarely used King's Guard gear or his usual splint mail? Does he get to wear his King's Guard plate? Does it come with a helmet or his splint mail + dog helmet?
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 21st, 2017 at 10:10 AM
When you're in a fight where your life is on the line, very rarely will you actually have time to think straight. This is why pretty much every martial art will train one move over and over again to commit them to muscle memory, because at the point of a fight majority of the time your body will move by instinct.
Wolverine will do as he normally does because that's what he knows how to do, what his body knows how to do. And even if he realizes that he can't win by fighting the same way... what exactly is he going to do? Run away? Because I don't recall him displaying the skill for a completely different fighting style. You don't all of a sudden decide, in the middle of a fight, that you're going to adapt a fighting style you've never done before and expect to be good at it.
I disagree. More intelligent and more experienced combatants understand that one needs to adapt to a situation and not the other way around. Unless you think ppl just shoot ar each other in a straight line and things like flanking don't happen mid-battle. I mean ppl adapting to their current combat situation happens all the time. I don't get what you are trying to say here.
Wolverine will, of course, attempt to stab them with his claws, but it is in the how he achieves this that he will likely adapt into the fight. Once their armor deflects his first few stabs and slashes, do you really think he will keep trying even when he knows it's not gonna work? Wouldn't YOU change your tactics if you know your basic attack isn't working?
His superior speed and mobility gives him the initiative and the ability to dictate the pace of the fight. It also allows him to keep his distance so he can either heal up when he takes some damage or to rethink his strategy.
There are many options open to him. From taking them down and doing a mount + stab to letting them swing and miss (or at least not hit him directly enough that he can still heal thru) while keeping them off balance via kicks and body shoves until they exhaust themselves.
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 21st, 2017 at 04:13 PM
1. I disagree that knights have a "very difficult" time getting up after getting knocked on their backs. Only a complete idiot would go to war wearing something that would not enable them to get back up easily after getting knocked down. I've personally seen HEMA fighters in full armor spar, and it certainly doesn't take them 3 seconds to get back up. Try 1 full second. And even if it did take that long, it doesn't mean they can't attack from their backs. I haven't watched your video yet since Youtube is blocked at work, but I will say that there are so many false vids out their regarding plate armor and I can easily find another video showing a man easily getting up with plate armor on.
2. I am not only looking at Logan's "low end feats". I'm looking at his average showings. It would be silly to focus only on his high end feats and ignore his consistent, average showings. Fact is, Logan has never been showcased as any stronger than your usual male action hero. Majority of action heroes will perform feats that in real life would be considered superhuman, but in the movieverse will be accepted as him not being superhuman. Take Baleman for example and his ability to hold a 200 pound man with one arm at a difficult angle. That would be a superhuman feat in real life, but we never considered Baleman to have superhuman strength.
Bottom line is, Wolverine might have a few instances where he seems to have some superhuman strength, but by and large he has not been portrayed as such. Had he been as strong as you say he is he should have been sending people flying left and right during his fight scenes.
3. First of all, GoT fight scenes aren't realistic at all. In real life, armored people can move a lot faster and longswords can be wielded at least twice as fast and a lot more gracefully.
As for Wolverine being faster, yes I agree with that. But I don't think that he so much faster that he can easily weave in and out of their attacks. Being able to duck and dodge around attacks isn't about fast motion speed, it's about skill and fast reflexes. And unfortunately, Wolverine has no feats to show that he has the skill or the reflexes to duck around hits like you're saying he would. You can't all of a sudden attribute a skill to someone who has zero feats to support it. You know the rule here in MvF, either they have feats to back it up or it doesn't count.
4. You could see it play in your mind all you want. But if you want your scenario to carry any weight, you'll need to support it with actual feats of Wolverine ducking around 3 longswords without getting hit, closing the distance, kicking someone in armor so hard that they fall down, incapacitate the other two still without getting hit, then mounting one of the fallen knights and finding a weak spot in his armor, stabbing him, all before one of the other knights can hack him in the neck.
That's a lot of assumptions on your part to give Wolverine the win.
Me on the other hand, make no assumptions. I base it from how Wolverine normally fights, which is to maybe duck 1 or 2 blows, block some blows, and pretty much get hit by the rest. I base it from how the GOT knights fight, which is to hack and slash with enough force to easily severe muscle and bone, block majority of attacks and almost never dodge. I base it from common knowledge that tempered steel is far stronger than bone, that longswords will have a huge reach advantage over Logan's claws, and that adjusting and creating a new fighting style is not as simple as willing it to happen.
1) I'll need to see someone in full plate mail getting up within one second. And no, I don't mean getting up after a roll, I mean getting up after being toppled onto his back (or at the very least, starting from a flat-back position). The only vids I found in youtube took them a full 3 seconds to do so. And I've already retracted the "very difficult" part in my post above (call it a brain fart on my part).
2) There are multiple instances where Wolverine manages to throw full sized men (200 lbs or so) 5-10 feet or so in the air (top of my mind, X-men Origins and X-Men 2, I think there's an instance in Logan but I can't remember where). Or fighting against opponents that can toss him 10-20 feet away or those shown to be obviously superhuman and resisting them strength to strength. Do we ignore these "feats" now? How does that work? Do we go by "portrayal" which can be subjective. How he is portrayed to you, is different to how he is portrayed to me. We need to be objective about what Wolverine can do. He has strength "feats" that put him easily above human, so he is. I mean, these are not one ofs. There are multiple instances of him demonstrating superhuman strength, why ignore them for the sake of a subjective metric?
3) So you're saying that GoT fighting are not realistic but are, in fact, slower and less graceful and skillful than real life? How does that help your argument, tho? Wouldn't that mean GoT characters are just slow even compared to RL humans while X-Men franchise characters are faster than RL humans so that a fight between characters from a slower universe vs a faster universe would mean that the faster universe would be faster?
4) You are asking for proof that cannot possibly exist. He has never fought ppl with longswords and platemail so you asking for proof of him fighting ppl in longswords is kinda strange.
But if it is "feats" regarding his ability to dodge/weave against slower/less skilled opponents and not get hit, the willingness and ability to fight defensively, to change tactics on the fly when things aren't working for him, and the intelligence and experience to figure out winning tactics on the fly, here are a few:
The Wolverine, opening fight (0:00-1:23) He fought against multiple (less skilled opponents than him) armed with guns and long knives in fast paced combat. Not one scored a single hit on him. Even used an opponent as a human shield to avoid gunfire. He took them out fast and efficiently.
On the train fight (1:24+). Close quarters, limited space to move. Only got hit with 2 tackles (as he had nowhere to dodge), 1 punch and a gunshot. Dodged multiple knife attacks.
Vs. Barakapool. First few seconds. Dodged, blocked and blocked (from a farrrrrrrrrr faster opponent than GoT characters who also has the reach advantage) and scored the first hit.
Forest battle. Faced with the bone spike guy and his buddies, he had to retreat and use the trees for cover. Uses trees to ambush opponents. Soon as Bone Spike guy charged him, he uses his claws to deflect thrown bone spikes and closed distance quickly to take down opponent.
Shifting strategies?
Xmen 2. When Lady DS had him outclassed and stabbing the crap out of him, even in intense pain he had the presence of mind to shift tactics (knowing his claws were ineffective) and use the molten adamantium to take her out.
Xmen Origins. Realized going h2h with Blob wasn't gonna work. Figured it out quickly that his adamantium would be the only thing that would hurt Blob sans his claws. Uses elbows to win.
Tactics?
Vs. Barakapool. Understands that Barakapool had the advantage in speed. Climbs cooling tower to get high ground and limit his opponent's mobility (due to narrow spaces involved). Granted it backfired when Bpool teleported, but sound tactic nonetheless.
The above should be proof enough than Wolverine isn't some mindless brawler. There is a tactical acumen (even under extreme stress) that he posseses that tells us that he can think on his feet and at least the minimum amount of brain power and speed/skill needed to make him avoid direct hits from powerful weapons that would incapacitate him as well as make him shift tactics when current methods are not working.
As this is a hypothetical fight, we are going to make assumptions, but breaking it down to it's basest form: You are assuming he's gonna fight stupid, I'm assuming he's not.
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 21st, 2017 at 04:46 PM
Wolverine manages to fight at least a dozen faster opponents and IMO more skilled opponents than the GoT characters, ducking, dodging and blocking in the slippery snow. Only getting hit a few times (mostly by the lead ninja). Here he demonstrates skill, speed and the ability to battle multiple opponents (faster than GoT) opponents armed with swords who prepped before the fight.
@0:50-0:54, he outfights 2 ninjas with swords, neither lands a single hit on him.
@0:55-1:00, lead ninja scores 2 hits.
@1:20-1:25, he again outfights 2 skilled opponents with swords, neither lands a single blow before he takes them out.
@1:27, he gets hit by a motorcycle as he was dispatching his 2 opponents.
@132, rolls and dodges under a kusarigama. Even tho he was just knocked off balance.
@1:35, he gets surrounded by at least 5-6 opponents (all faster than GoT characters). They attack him at once and a backhand from him sends one spinning in the air.
@1:41, he gets hit by a motocycle attack from behind again which tosses him several feet in the air.
@1:48, he gets hit by a net from a motorcycle and get dragged.
@2:26, one hand tosses a ninja at least 10-15 feet (Strength showing). Who get turned to cole slaw when he lands in front of a snow thrower (ouch).
@2:40, nonchalantly (with no visible effort) picks up a dirt bike (which would weight like 200-250 lbs?) and slams it into a biker's face WWE steel chair style (Strength showing).
Let it be noted that he fought at least a dozen+ opponents armed with swords and the only time he got hit by a sword throughout the video was by the lead ninja at the start.
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 21st, 2017 at 05:25 PM
Josh, you're still under the assumption Logan will get hit.
Mountain for one is horrendously slow. Much slower than even Blob. Hound's not much faster. And Jaime is the fastest, but still a turtle compared to anyone Logan has fought. And with no Adamantium, he'll know to dodge. And it won't be hard if you compare fight scenes.
I haven't watched these but just want to make a few notes:
1. Is Wolverine blocking any hits on those scenes? Because he won't be able to block hits in this fight if he doesn't want his limbs or claws cut off. And being able to block hits is a big factor in being able to dodge others. Removing the ability to block something severely hampers your ability to dodge others.
2. Are these feats against fodder? Because the 3 knights in this fight are not fodder, and even the characters with the worst fight choreographies in Hollywood still easily steamroll through fodder *cough*baleman*cough. Not exactly a strong argument if you're using fodder. Give me a fight against a properly skilled opponent where Wolverine was ducking and dodging without getting hit and with minimal blocking of his claws.
3. I still don't see any convincing argument for how Wolverine's claws can do significant damage to armored opponents while at the same time completely avoiding any significant hit.
Dude, it's simple. If you think Wolverine is skilled enough to duck and dodge around every attack, then post a feat of him doing so. Yeah, GOT fighters are slow, but there are 3 of them attacking at the same time.
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