Well, there are times during Guggenheim's run that Wolverine was almost on the ground because of the mustard gas. If you think DP can't snag a flam-thrower and mustard gas, you've got to be dreaming.
I'm not saying that gas is going to knock Logan out - although it sure would it if was potent enough - just that it will have a significant affect on him for long enough that DP could take him out. DP's skill is close enough to Logan's to take him down if Logan is distracted or weakened in some way. A flame thrower and bullets are EASILY enough to slow Logan down enough to make DP's skill effective.
Now that being said, DP's not going to tag Logan easily with his guns. If he confronts Wolverine, Wolverine most likely will win because he can dodge fire or whatever DP has long enough. Also, the same strategy doesn't work on Logan twice. If DP did manage to score a win, he wouldn't be able to take Logan again the same way. Logan would be able to use his vast array of skills (not just h2h) to counteract whatever Wade has to offer. I'm basically saying Wade has to use tricks and cheat the first time - the second and third time he fights Logan, he's be in trouble cause Logan can't be taken the same way in the exact same fashion. His ability to counteract strategies is unparalleled. He just thinks of counter-moves like normal people think of words to say in response to a question.
All in all, I was giving a POTENTIAL scenario where DP COULD take Wolverine. I'm saying it's possible, not likely. At least not on a consistent basis. If he cheats, he can pull a win. If Logan's serious and has seen what DP likes to do, he's going to win hands down.
What the? Are you talking about his WWI flashbacks?
Dude... that was in WWI.. When his healing factor was about 10--20 times weaker than it is today (even with the downgrade) and he was still running around killing people in that stuff.
I don't think I ever said DP couldn't get ahold of a flame thrower and mustard gas so I don't know where you're drawing that little tangent from.
The gas might be enough to slow Logan down, but the flipside to that is.. Well, he's a damned ninja.
As for bullets and flamethrowers being effective.. Yeah I don't know about that.
Wolverine's fought while being set aflame plenty. If he could handle Sabretooth while on fire and half a walking skeleton, Deadpool won't fair any better.
Bullets. I fail to see how they've been effective on Wolverine since fatal attractions. Sure there's been a few times that he's been taken down or hurt substantially by loads of bullets, but even then, all those are low showings that hang in the minority.
If DP could make use of bullets and flames or explosions to equilize their skill set he'd have probably done so already.
As it stands, he had everything going for him in that last fight and still got handled by Wolverine who was holding back.
K, I can agree to that.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Okay, some things. First of all where are you getting that Wolverine's healing factor was so much slower in WWI? If anything, it would be faster because Logan had not yet undergone the adamantium-bonding which automatically slows his HF down due to the fact that his body is always trying to reject the poison. Also, if you remember Millar had his HF waaaay up during WWII. This means that it hasn't magically gotten stronger over the years as you've suggested. Guggenheim made an attempt to say it has but really he probably referring to the past twenty years or so. I mean common, man, back in 82, a single bullet slowed Wolverine down enough to give Shingen an advantage. Now Shingen goes down easily to Logan. Guggenheim tried to something that I wish would happen more - downgrade Logan's healing factor. I'm sick of this Frank Tieri-like take on the character that Logan heals the moment he gets injured. I mean, I would rather see him use his SKILL first, and HF and so forth as a "just in case" rather than just bull-dozing through loads and loads of bullets like he did during Frank Tieri's run. In fact, I would even say I hate seeing Logan like that. I much prefer the take on him during the 84 Kitty Pryde/Wolverine miniseries. That showed that Logan, when Berserk can take an opponent more skilled than him. It also showed that he IS vulnerable and takes time to heal. He's not invincible which in my mind just puts too much cheese on the character. And yes, at the time, Ogun was more skilled that Wolverine. Now, not so sure as Logan has had years to practice more.
Secondly, how much bullets, flamethrowers, or whatever affect Logan has to do with the writer. I mean, Wolverine barely handled mystique an hour or so after blowing himself up. Or however long it was. The point is, his skin was charred and his muscles ripped to pieces, and Mystique of all people game him problems. DP blows him up like five times and all it does is get Wolverine angry. If Daniel Way had an ounce of logic and proper understanding of either character, Wolverine would not have allowed himself to get blown up in the first place, but if he had, he would be injured enough to lose BADLY to DP. I mean, if Mystique can fair evenly against a wounded Wolverine, what's DP going to do? Not that Mystique should equal Wolverine under ANY circumstances, but the point is that writing plays a huge part in how efficient Logan's healing factor works.
Okay, so I guess on that note, what I was trying to say was that DP would have to use weapons to take Logan down - he's not going to do it H2H and he knows it. He has to cheat, hire people, and use loads and loads of guns and grenades in order to beat Logan and even then he has his hands full because Logan has a habit of dodging all those weapons.
There's nothing magical about it.
It's a known fact that Wolverine's HF has gotten stronger over the years.
Aside from the fact that Guggenheim flat out stated it in his own story, it was first discussed upon after the Fatal Attractions storyline in Excalibur when Proffesor X has assessed that wounds which may have proven fatal in the past would now be nothing more than a momentary annoyance. This was further extrapolated upon as Xavier and Mac Hudson discussed that the metal was halting Wolverine from a further mutation, backed up by the concept of mutants going through secondary mutations, and supported once again by several statements from Sabretooth that Wolverine would continue to change until he became like another Sabretooth.
As far as Millars story. Assuming it was Wolverine (as the write-up for the story implied that it may not even have been), that was nothing more than an uncharacterisitcally high showing for him at that point in time.
As there's multitudes of consistency with having a weaker HF.
-Right before WWI he had his eye ripped out by Cyber and it was implied that he was missing it for the duration of their encounter while freaking out, where as he got his eye slashed out by Shingen with the adamantium and it was opened up and healed by the time the fight was over.
- In "My Mutant Heart", Wolverine's gassed unconcious rather quickly during the 1940's. Yet in Return of the Native, with Adamantium, Wolverine's running around killing multitudes of Cape Killers totally uneffected in a cloud of gas that was dropping men instantly upon having their masks removed.
- In his first encounter with Captain America, Wolverine was KOed by a carwreck and a handful of bullets to the torso. Well, I don't think I need to explain how the Adamantiumized Wolverine deals with droves of bullets.
- During his time in WWII he got shot in the head and put down for some time. Since his "downgrade he's been shot in the brain and got up immediately even after Scrambler got ahold of him.
- After WWII Wolverine got manhandled rather easily after his time in Jasmine Falls without taking much damage whatsoever. Adamantiumized Wolverine took six shots from WWH before he stopped fighting back.. Nuff Said.
- Wolverine was later again KOed by bullets during the Cold War and Maverick had to save him. Again, bullets?
- Slightly after the Cold War or at the end of it while Wolverine was on a team X mission with Langram, Wolverine was hit with an ATV which crushed his face and ribs and KOed him.. again.. Immediately after having his adamantium removed, Wolverine was hit with a car that broke almost every bone in his body, and he was already up and nearly healed when he got done rolling from the collision.
- Shortly after that, Wolverine got tranqed by 3 darts and pistol whipped unconscious before they hauled him off to Weapon X. Deadpool had to shoot him with enough tranqs to bring down a T-Rex, and even then he was up and fighting back before they could even secure him in the Administrators facility.
- Hell, there's even examples after Fatal Attractions, where Wolverine didn't heal as quickly up to getting his adamantium back as he has been recently.
Which is when his HF was upgraded most.
Terrible example. It wasn't a single bullet that slowed him down it was poison.
Makes sense given that Logan now remembers more of his training and all his experience than he did when he and Shingen fought in issue 4.
Well no offense but I don't much care for your preference on what Wolverine "should be like" according to you as this isn't what the discussion is about so I'm going to ignore this little rant.
And by MAJORITY, most writers have him shrugging them off. Characters on KMC operate at their best based on majority showings.
Another terrible example.
Wolverine had no food or sleep since Cyclops sent him on his mission because if he did he'd lose ground on Mystique.
Wolverine was meandering around in the desert where his healing factor is diminished and has been stated so on panel.
Wolverine had been shot by hundreds of bullets and blown up by enough C4 to fill up a passenger car seat.
Practically charred to a skeleton and he was already on persuit again.
And again, his HF doesn't negate pain, he's already stated that he goes through phantom pains after the wound in question heals.
He was nowhere near 100% while fighting Mystique, experiencing phantom pains, still healing muscle and tendons, and he still beat her ass back even with years of knowing Wolverine and what he's capible of.
Hell, in their last fight, she had to rely on CIS just to draw him in for the brain shot.
Which again makes sense given that DP was going after a 100% Wolverine while Mystique fought Wolverine who was nowhere near that....
For someone who wants to be the real Wolverine you sure miss out on a lot of key points about his career.
Depends on if he starts at 100% or not.
He wasn't just wounded, he had a momumentily deminished healing factor, and was healing from a practical skeleton..
He suffered nothing like that against DP...
or taking them and laughing them off.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Okay, so now you've resorted to twisting plots around to make them mean something they don't? Wolverine was healing faster at that time because he was mutating and because his body was no longer rejecting adamantium. He also became more animal-like and wore a do-rag. All of these things went into reversal including the increased healing factor. Logans HF still remained strong, however, when his skeleton was rebonded with adamantium, it should have slowed down again.
First of all, it's a logical assumption to think that's Wolverine in the Millar story. It looks like him, it heals like him, and I mean for crap's sake the title of the book is Wolverine who do you think the character is supposed to be? Also, the example you gave proves my point - he was without his eye the duration of the fight with Cyber. Under Frank Tieri, which was 2003, Logan took a week to heal from a missing eye. Even HE knew that Logan's HF had limitations.
You honestly need to learn the difference between HF actually getting stronger, and inconsistent writing. Logan's healing factor isn't getting stronger so much as writers just have different takes on him. And gas eventually affects Logan - just when he's berserk, he tends to ignore his injuries and keep going until he's put down. Also, he healed HOURS after Sabs KOED him. In fact, I think it was like half a day or something because by the time he woke up, Creed had already killed the Native and her body was already collecting maggots by the time Logan woke up. Also, if you read Rucka's run, Logan had to scoop out bullets with a knife and he had scars after being shot. How's that consistent with Frank Tieri's run who preceded him? It's not - even in the slightest.
The explanation is simple - different writers write Logan differently. I mean, Millar screwed up Wolverine so bad it wasn't even funny. He lost major fights to DD, Elektra and most of the Fantastic Four.
Again, inconsistent writing.
Yes...sounds like the writer actually knew what he was talking about. I mean, common man, it says write on the Marvel website that Wolverine is not immortal, if injuries are severe enough he can die. And Guggenheim said that if dies now, he dies for good but right away we can see that writers will ignore this. I mean, Daniel Way ignored it recently.
-
umm...I'm talking about their SECOND fight. Logan was clearly affected by the bullet he was shot with. That's why Mariko wrapped him in that green thing she had.
Logan has ALWAYS remembered his training. At least his muscles have. You're muscles don't forget how to fight. If they did, Logan wouldn't even be able to walk. lol. SO yeah, it had to do with the fact that he was healthier during Guggenheim's run, and less to do with "remembering".
:
Is there any part of the arc where he actually stats that he hasn't been eating or are you assuming things? Besides, I'm surprised you would even argue Logan's HF using Aaron's run considering that Logan was taken down by bullets. I mean, he was as good as dead. HF took a while to bring him back and he was still coughing up bullets three days later. Remember, when stranded in the dessert, he had to eat or his HF would not work properly. I guess that gives credance to your arguement but can you actually find where it says Logan didn't eat?
Last edited by The Real Wolvie on May 27th, 2008 at 04:20 AM
That had nothing to do with his secondary mutation and everything to do with his mutation going awry after his HF rejected the adamantium from genesis.
"should have" according to you. Did it? no...
I agree that it's logical but it was Millars write up that stated the ambiguity around whether or not the character in question was Wolverine.
The logan that took a week to heal from a missing eye was the one that recently got out of the habitat, his HF was severly reduced due to the pills he was taking and the damage he soaked. So again, terrible example.
Lol says the guy who just used Millars ghost story for Wolverine healing from a beheading and incineration in the 40's as a standard....
Now you're just projecting.
Stronger takes since his incarnation.
he wasn't berserk when he was ignoring the gas...
He woke up a few hours later. And being beaten to a pulp by Sabretooth isn't the same as getting gassed, maybe you need to learn the difference between inhaling and evisceration.
Against DD he was fighting his mind control, and winning that fight anyways til his mind control got out of whack, against elektra he has 100% consistency as a lesser so don't know where you think inconsistency comes into play there, and everyone in the FF SHOULD be a threat to Logan. He was lucky he did as well as he did.
No it's not.
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with this little rant.
That he wore as his banner? yeah okay i fail to see how this means anything considering that it was waaaayyyy before fatal attractions.
Muscle memory and remembering strategic training are completely seperate things.
it was in the first comic of the arc.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
LOL - Wolverine is NOT Eletktra's lesser. There is NO consistency outside of moronic writing that Wolverine shouldn't do anything but take Elektra down in three moves or less. He has superior training, speed, strength, etc. She has nothing that gives her an advantage at all. The whole story Millar wrote showed he knew NOTHING of Wolverine's abilities. Just the fact that Wolverine ran away SCARED from Elektra should prove that to you. Just because something happens in the comics doesn't mean it's consistent. How in any way is Elektra beating Wolverine consistent with the history of both characters? You might as well just claim that Nick Fury is Wolverine's superior in h2h because Daniel Way had a mental lapse and put that in the comic.
Also, what issue cites that Logan's healing factor was slowed down during Frank Tieri's run. I also would like to understand how you get Logan's HF was speeding up naturally aside from the time that he was mutating. ALL OF THOSE mutations were reversed including the enhanced HF so I don't even know why you brought this up. I agree Logan's HF has been speeding up according to Guggenheim but it's not like what Guggenheim did is going to matter. Writers are already ignoring it. He doesn't even really have a downgrade - just keep reading no writer will acknowledge it.
Oh, and Wolverine didn't use strategy against Shingen the last time they faught, he simply used his Samurai training. There is nothing in cannon that states that he remembered more fighting moves after he regained his memories. You tend to read into things a lot. You get strange interpretations that I don't understand and don't really seem to grasp what Wolverine's about. I mean, on one hand you think Elektra taking Wolverine down makes sense, on the other you think he's unaffected by anything other than incineration. Please make up your mind. How is some average person with less fighting skills than Wolverine going to take him down with Sai's of all things the majority of the time? They aren't.
Last edited by The Real Wolvie on May 27th, 2008 at 05:49 AM
You know nothing of Wolverine if you don't acknowledge that all of the mutations he endured when he first lost his adamantium were reversed. I mean, he went from having no nose back to normal again with a normal HF. Go read your back issues, and don't come back until you do. Also, I know Elektra well enough to know she isn't in Logans league in terms of fighting. That much is obvious. Wolverine takes out the likes of Shang Chi and Cap who are Marvel's elite. Elektra is some third tier martial artist who is outclassed by Chi and Cap. How easy should she go down to Logan? VERY easily.
Last edited by The Real Wolvie on May 27th, 2008 at 05:57 AM
I not sure what funnier the fact you think I don’t know my wolverine facts…………..or the fact you think you have greater knowledge on wolverine then me.
His physical appearances was brought back to normal, but his healing factor mutating further was not reversed. Nor was it ever stated to be. That some crazy shit you made up and your head. I haved read my back issue, have you? If you read them you know when apoc gave Logan back his adamatium he was able to in some unknown processes cancel out the adamatium poison, meaning his healing factor remained at the levels it had been at.
You don’t know shit if you think that. Pleases don’t be so ignorant. You clearly don’t have any knowledge on her abilities and vastly underated them.
Don’t come in here acting all superior when you clearly know nothing about what your talking about.
Maybe I am underrated her but the fact is she has NEVER demonstrated Logan's level of skill. Unlike you, I actually read comics that go back before 2003. Just because the idiot who wrote the Redeemer decided it would be good for Elektra to take Wolverine doesn't mean it was. Just because Mark Millar is a clueless twit when it comes to Wolverine doesn't mean that's how the character is or should be written.
Also, there's never an issue that says Logan now possesses some magical ability to completely negate the adamantium poisoning. However, it's quite clear that after Wolverine regained his humanity, his HF slowed down again.
Your ingorances is amazing. Pleases I have more comic from the 90’s and 80’s then you likely own in all.
So your just going to ignore evidences? How wonderful.
Really she never demonstrated wolverine level skill? You mean like beating the shit out of taskmaster and DD is not top tier like skill? The same two guys who have beaten capt in a fight.
How is mark miller clue less? Elektra was able to take on a haft dead mind control wolverine with help………..that far from bad writing.
It was shown by the fact that when his healing factor was negated, he did not sufer adamtium poison at all………..
Really were was this evident? I mean he was taking full blasts from Cyclopes, hits from hulk, hits from colossus, swords through his throat with out slowing, but clearly his healing factor was slower
First of all, even if Elektra is on Wolverine's level in terms of skill, he out-classes her in every other aspect which means he should win the vast majority of the time. Secondly, there was never an indication by Millar that Wolverine's brainwashing affected his fighting skills, nor was there any indication that he was half dead the time he fought Elektra or DD. Instead, Millar was looked as if he was making Wolverine look stupid on purpose. There are several times throughout that arc that Wolverine looked as if was the last person the Hand would have picked to resurrect. Face it, Millar doesn't like Wolverine and it showed during his run.
There's nothing that says Wolverine wouldn't EVENTUALLY be affected by Adamantium poisoning. Besides, just because the writer forgets about that, doesn't mean it isn't there or shouldn't have been put there. Writers make mistakes all the time. Just look at how Nick Fury beat up Wolverine. That was a blatant disgrace.
Oh, and as for the healing factor bit. I was referring to when he first returned to being human after mutating into that animal. His healing factor was back down. Now the time he was brainwashed by Apocalypse, he was given enhancements. These enhancements disappeared when he stopped being Death.
He does not though…………..which is why your ignorant………….she has speed feats and reflex feats that are on par with his own if not superior……….
Brain washing always effects ones fighting skills it a known fact.
Also how can some one being fight at there best when there being force to against there will?
How can some one who stated he trying his hardest to fight against it be fighting to the best of his ability?
Ecpt for you know the fact moments before he was being kept alive by life support……….
No it dident and I think your recalling the run quite badly………..
Don’t give me such stupid cop outs.
Man your examples almost always suck…………whenw as the last time you read the issue? Nick fury hardly beat him up………he was backing enough power to drop top tier bricks and Logan still came out on top.
There was no indecation that his hf was reversed at all.
Prove it. Pleases show evidences that Logan was enhances physically out side his return of his adamtium skeleton and if enhanced when was the processes reversed and if it was not it would be present still making it an irrelevant statement.
Yeah, okay. It says clearly on the Marvel biography that Elektra is a superb h2h combatant with the reflexes, agility, speed and strength of a human in peak condition.
It says that Logan's speed, reflexes, and strength etc are enhanced by his healing factor and that he's one of Marvel's best fighters. Elektra has no super powers so it doesn't make any sense that she would have greater reflexes. And as I already pointed, the biography's on the site prove me right.
There are no known facts concerning brainwashing and fighting skill. Oh, and just because you can't envision how one might fight at optimal conditions while being brainwashed doesn't mean it can't happen. Look, he managed to take three X-men down didn't he? He also grabbed a hold of Rachel and threatened her. I mean common man, the whole point of this arc was to see what happens if Wolverine turns to the dark side. If he doesn't retain his skill, there's no point in having on board now is there
And as we all know, Logan can make a full recovery within moments. Seriously, he was able-bodied enough to take down SHIELD agents. Definitely not half dead as you would like to think. You can't expect me to take you seriously if on one hand you claim he regenerates from having his brain turned to mush instantly and on the other claim that he can't regenerate from the brink of death. How many times have we seen Logan regenerate completely within a matter of moments after he was nearly dead?
Lets see...
Wolverine lost to Elektra, the Gorgon twice, the fantastic four, and DD. He didn't have a single h2h victory. How's that for a making a character look bad?
It's not a cop out - it's been stated several times that Logan is affected by Adamantium poisoning.
Which fight are you referring to? Cause I'm referring to the House of M tie in by Daniel Way in which Fury Judo wrestled Wolverine and ended up winning because of skill. He also called Wolverine "boy" which is downright hilarious and shows that Way at that time didn't know anything about Wolverine. Or at least he was having one of his "blond" moments again.
lol. Well except for the fact that he could barely handle Creed's punches. Creed also broke his claws off and left them as stubs which took awhile to heal. If he had been his mutated self, they would have healed instantly. Also, he took a while to recover from having his throat torn out by Sabs and nearly died whereas mutated Wolvie would have healed much faster.
The issue outright says that the reason why Wolverine chose to fight Creed so hard and become Death was because he knew that an enhanced Sabretooth wouldn't hold back and would be too deadly. He thought that at least he could fight Apocalypse's brainwashing. And he did...for brief moments. But there is a good example of Logan not being able to fight off the brainwashing MOST of the time. I mean, he nearly killed Hulk and only held back at the last second. Anyway, the point is that the issue clearly states that Sabretooth would have been enhanced had he become Death. Any honest person with an I.Q. above 35 can see that that's what ended up happening to Logan. Also, the fact that he wasn't able to do these things after he was Death should prove that the enhancements didn't last. He just went back to being plain old Logan.
Last edited by The Real Wolvie on May 27th, 2008 at 07:27 AM
KMC Community Forums
May 24th, 2008 09:17 PM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
beats 
because 
ftw.
