Jason says:
what am I supposed to do?
Jon says:
clean your apt before she moves in? buy some pink bed sheets? scented candles?
Jason says:
wait, u have pink bed sheets?
Jon says:
ive said too much
Why does it need to be cited when that was the whole point of putting him in the habitat in the first place? To strip him of his powers.
And in hinesight I think Wolverine was healed from that by the time he fought Sabretooth in the next issue hardly a week later.
Bullshit! Logan's HF was stated to go up, there was NEVER a SINGLE mention that his HF went back down. The only thing that even comes close to what you're talking about is when Logan himself regressed due to Genesis' attempt to Adamantiumize him, of course that reversed, but his HF? Hardly. Gugg's writing only supports this fact.
Hell, he has a large number of HF feats better since 145 than he had during his bone claw stint.
It's clear that remembering more of his training and everything he's been through for the last 120 years is going to go into his experience factor a great deal more than not being able to remember correctly what happened and what didn't since before dept H.
I'm inferring based on the evidence provided. He didn't do anywhere near as well against Shingen the first time as he did the second in terms of what he was taking and giving.
Almost every fight he's had recently he's been using more skill than before.
That includes going up against a 4th Shiva model, Cap, Nuke, S.S., Even the Hand.
All this coincidence?
And uh, stop shoving words into my mouth. I said that Elektra made Logan appear the lesser I didn't say that it makes sense for her to beat him flat out did I.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Are you talking about the "historical events of HOM" that never took place? Yeah they're inconsequential which is why Way was able to get away with that, like Peter still having Uncle Ben around...
And....
I can't quite decide if this is either the most ignorant post about Elektra I've ever read, or simply the most fanboyish post about Wolverine. At this point I almost have to question if you even know just who or what Elektra really is... I mean let's just ignore for an instant the fact that she's packin:
Superior feats of speed to Logan's own.
Downright scary stopping power.
Quasi-mystical ninja illusionary tactics.
And has some form of mind reading capabilities.
But...... Wolverine taking down a top/uber tier Marvel MA "in three moves or less"?!?!?!
Do you have any idea whatsoever just how bat-shit-crazy that makes you sound?!
I mean Jeezus! I'm a die-hard Wolverine fan and that's a tough pill to swallow. She's not some Hand "red-shirt" scrub incapible of holding her own in a one on one fight, she's Marvel's top ninja assassin... period.
And then to go on and rant about how consistency in comics isn't consistency? LMAO! Dude, common and repetative events in 616 are what makes CONSISTENCY. Sure, different Marvel writers may have different interpretations, but 4 different Marvel writers have all had the SAME interpretation when it comes to Elektra and Wolverine, and that's that Elektra is clearly Wolverine's superior.
For you to whine about that or ignore that simply because that goes against your idea about what you think SHOULD happen, well, that makes you as bad as some of these Spiderman fanboys running rampant around here and you don't know what kind of insult that is.
Of course in a fight to the finish, Wolverine would take Elektra, absolutely! But it's not because of being stronger, faster (which he definitely IS NOT), or more skilled, as none of those would ever come into play between the two. Wolverine only wins a fight with Elektra because of his unreal HF and damage soak, Elektra would have to fight flawlessly long enough to put Wolverine down, and that wouldn't happen a majority of the time. Her batting him around from some unknown amount of time however? Perfectly acceptable. Beating him when his HF isn't all hot to trot? Absolutely fine...
Lol, I can't believe you actually think Elektra's a normal woman.
As for the rest of your nonsense. Wolverine was not enhanced by Apoc as Death with the exception of having an Adamantium Skeleton, and a few tech tools and weapons. All of which were accounted for.
And your whole argument for Wolverine having a superior HF pre-Weapon X is ridiculous. The most you could say about it was "different writers have different interpretations"... NO SHIT. What that arguments fails to recognize and bids others to ignore is the sheer overwhelming CON-SIS-TEN-CY in which all those different writers have written Wolverine's healing factor after fatal attractions as far more powerful than before hand, with and without the metal. Again you act as if this is all coincidence, and the condtradictions between your evidence and your rhedoric is near mind boggling.
You want to prove that Wolverine could heal from incineration, firing squads, and beheading in WWII using a MIllar story when the story was admittedly ambiguous, and the writer, someone who you feel has no grasp over Wolverine's character? .....oooooK... whatever works I guess.
And just what in the blue hell is wrong with any of Wolverine's h2h showings in Millars story?
Wolverine was getting beat by Elektra who is not only that good to begin with, but attacked Wolverine from behind, minutes after he had healed from being kept alive by life support. On top of that he was under the influence of mind control that clearly effected his ability to react how he normally would.
Wolverine was beating DD, dodding billy clubs and backing him into a coner before DD bashed his mind control wonkey only to find out Wolverine'd been fighting the mind control the whole time.
Against the FF he shouldn't last 2 minutes..
He downed Thing rather easily, and speared Human Torch into a gas station for a double TKO, how is that not impressive? It's already established he can't cut Mr. Fantastic, and Invisible Woman would curb him anyways...
And Gorgon.. The guy's massively skilled, intelligent, with top tier fighting ability, super strength, a massive speed advantage, an HF, immunity to pain, and a telepath Wolverine getting the crap beat out of him by an ubar mofo like that is in no way shape or form a bad showing. Gorgon would run through half the damned MU from street level to superhumans.. Hell, give the man durable enough blades and he'd be dropping bricks too.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
All I have to say is that you clearly know nothing of Elektra or Wolverine. Elektra even admitted that Wolverine was faster and stronger than him. And as far as skill goes - she's good yes, but nothing in her history suggests that she's on even DP's level or Caps level of skill. If she isn't on par with either of those characters, she isn't on par with Logan.
You come off as some Elektra fanboy that began reading her comics last year or something. The fact is, she doesn't have anywhere NEAR the training that Logan has. She was trained by the hand and by Stick for a few years. Logan was trained by Ogun who is Stick's superior for a lifetime. Whatever Elektra knows, Logan knows three times better. I don't need to be a fanboy to think that I just need to be aware of both character's history.
Larry Hamma never showed Elektra to be superior to Logan. In fact, when he sheathed the sword in order to win the fight - or as he put it - check mate Elektra - even she was impressed. This was all while he was a mutated animal no less. She was coaxing the skill back out of him which she did just fine. Also, Logan dodged Stick's attacks who has always been Elektra's superior.
All of the writers that have shown Logan to be inferior to Elektra have displayed lack of knowledge of Wolverine or some way or another. Millar was completely clueless. Wolverine never used his skill once in any of the fights - his kicks were lame and he used his HF waayyy too much. Also - the fact that he was scared of Elektra proves that Millar knows absolutely nothing or intentionally mis-wrote Wolverine. He was also pissing his pants over like fifty ninjas or whatever it was. Yeha..Claremont's Wolverine would rather go down dying than ***** to Elektra about how many ninjas she's making him fight and then suck up to her like she's God. Logan has always stood up to enemies more powerful than him not like some woman who's Olympic level speed, strength and reflexes are going to scare Logan off. lol Also, whoever the author of Redeemer was clearly didn't know Logan either. Bendis the same thing - as if Logan would want to be in SHIELD as his one wish. Please. Oh and Daniel Way having Logan KOED by Nick Fury under ANY circumstances other than Logan being six-years old is flat out ridiculous. Please - Logan had been through his training with Ogun even during the House of M as the House of M only affected the most recent 20 years or something like that. So yeah - Logan had been trained already. Daniel Way of course just ignores this though. I mean - it's not like it's possible for Nick even he did have more skill. Gimme a break here.
Just because you have this bunk interpretation of Elektra that she's superior to the likes of DP, Black Panther, Cap, and Wolverine in H2H doesn't make it true. Try posting some scans proving this. I would honestly like to see them.
Last edited by The Real Wolvie on May 29th, 2008 at 02:34 AM
Elektra is waaaay up there in terms of fighting skills these days. She's been depicted as such for a while now. The fact that it was Skrullektra who beat Wolverine with a paralyzing sai stab shouldn't take away from that either. She's good.
Wolverine 6/10 for this thread. Cuz Wade is teh crazy.
Okay, I admit that I was wrong to portray Elektra as unskilled. She's good. Probably as good as Wolverine but he's still faster and stronger. Anyway, they are both up there in terms of fighting skills.
Honestly, there's only two people that I can think of that should be more skilled than Wolverine in h2h and that's Ogun and Stick.
Admitted? Hardly. pffft. All Elektra did was state what Wolverine himself stated because she was toying with him and wanted him to know she was reading his thoughts. Hell, even Wolverine is shocked at her speed in their fight in EOTS and she was coasting in neutral.
Her skill level is CLEARLY top-tier. I don't see how you even think you can begin to argue otherwise.
You state her not to be as skilled as DP or Cap but that's nothing more than an empty statement with absolutely NO evidence to support it.
The fact that you are clearly giving discrediting Elektra's skill and speed levels based on non-evidence shows me that you're not as inclined on these characters histories as you'd like to believe.
She's railed through every MA she's ever fought... PERIOD...
The only time that wasn't the case has been ONE uncharacteristically high showing with Bullseye due to CIS.
She was near Logan's level of skill before BE killed her. After that she's been trained by the Hand, the Chaste, and another student of Stick to give her not only a massive increase in sheer skill, but also a ton of quasi mystical ninja abilities. You don't have the first clue as to what you're talking about when it comes to that woman.
And.... Experience doesn't always make a good fighter. Daken's lived a third as long as Logan and isn't an eternal warrior spirit and Wolverine admitted he was superior.
Cap doesn't have anywhere near the level of versatility that Wolverine has, but he's naturally that good a fighter.
That fight only proved what I've already said.. Elektra kicked him from one end of the rooftop to the other without him getting ONE hit on Elektra. And at that point Logan had already regained his cognitive ability.. the same du-rag wearing Logan beat Shang Chi easily... But not Elektra.. who was once again coasting in neutral.
Again HOM historical accounts are inconsequential. HOM only effected what happened from HOM onward. Everything else as HOM Spidey proved was nothing more than an illusion.
And Logan was hardly pissing himself about those ninjas.. There were two thousand of them by the way. And Elektra even stated that his protests had no merit as he was enjoying himself. As for the rest of you nonsense "I don't like it, it didn't happen."
I'm not sure what you would like me to prove if 4 direct comparisons between Elektra and Logan don't already prove it for you.
You really need to let go of this concept that Elektras at olympic human levels of speed and strength though.. I don't know what handbook, database crap profile you pulled that out from, but it's wildly innacurate.
Elektra's blocked bullet for bullet automatic gunfire.
Speed Blitzed Punisher so fast he didn't even know she swiped his gun until it was gone from his hands.
Speed Blitzed Silver Samurai.
Moves so fast underwater she can't be seen.
She's strong enough to punch through bullet proof armor while being tazered.
Throw her sai so hard it took a mans hand OFF and sent it flying through his bullet proof vest, his body, and out the other side of his bullet proof vest.
Hell, she's even stopped Wolverine and a Large muscular moose in mid charge and tossed him away from eachother.
Olympic level? Pssssyeahh right!
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
I'm not going to respond to everything you said - just a few things - Wolverine was a raging animal the first time he fought Elektra that's why she kicked him from one roof top to the other
She doesn't have the skills of DP, Chi, Cap, or Wolverine - never has and never will. IF you don't know that, you don't know the character and are just a clueless fanboy. The Marve website clearly outlines her abilities being olympic athlete level. I'm sure there are comics you think state otherwise, but considering you don't even know that Apocalypse amped up Logan, I wouldn't take your interpretation over the ACCURATE Marvel website. You also claim all sorts of things that are untrue - you read into things constantly and have extremely poor logic. Most of the people I've ran into on these forums agree with me that Logan is both faster and stronger than Elektra, but you insist that she outclasses him.
In case you haven't noticed - comic book characters sometimes venture beyond their abilities. Elektra once turned herself invisible - yet she clearly has no regular power to do so. Never has and never will. It was a one time thing from what I understand - not like she actually has the invisibility power to use on and off. Yet she did it. Also - didn't she have trouble fighting Silver Samurai?
Also, most of the times Elektra fought Logan - Logan was written incorrectly.
There are plenty of people on this board who would disagree that Elektra is on the top of the marvel universe regarding H2H. I mean, you put her on a higher level than DP but there's no real evidence for that. Go ahead and show it. Please show her displaying greater skill than Cap or BP.
Elektra is one of the top three "street level" Martial Artists on Marvel Earth. The pecking order is up for debate but it is pretty much Elektra, Captain America and Wolverine ... and the reason some people think that characters like DP (seriously... someone thinks DP > Elektra lmao), DD or IF are superior is because they have little to no Elektra experience out side of her DD appearances. I would strongly suggest you go to your local comic shop and poke around for back issues of Elektra v2.
Elektra plunges her hand straight through a man's chest and ribcage, ripping out his heart in the blink of an eye.
I fully admit that Elektra is on Cap and Logan's level. Forgive me if my words can be interpreted otherwise. However, Marvel says she only has Olympic level strength/speed, etc. It's not my fault if a few fanboy writers like to give her powers she doesn't have such as turning invisible.
People get pissed when Logan regenerates from a Skeleton, and then we end up with idiotic, lame stories about Logan has an immortal soul to explain it. Whatever.
Oh, and of all those scans you showed me, Logan has showings where he is equaly as fast. As far as strength goes, he's lifted up 1000 pounds with one arm and thrown it through a wall. Can Elektra match that?
I fully plan on getting some Elektra comics but somehow I doubt I will come out thinking she's Logan's superior regarding anything
Last edited by The Real Wolvie on May 30th, 2008 at 06:07 AM
If she was coasting in neutral, why did she have to attack him when he was busy fighting SHIELD agents? Scared of confrontation is she? Also, Wolverine never used any martial arts during the entire run, so it's complete garbage and should be disregarded. When someone who knows Wolverine writes her as superior, I'll be more inclined to believe it. You mentioned the fight under Hamma. The whole point was to bring Logan back from an animalistic state. Once he remembered himself, he out-classed her in skill. That much is clear.
Wolverine was shocked with her speed...he wasn't shocked, he just commented on her speed. There's a difference. Also, he ran away scared of her. Wolverine isn't scared of anyone. And where the hell is his training in this? Virtually non-existent and replaced with cheap gadgets. He was, in fact, made to look like a nobody. That was Millar's point the whole run.
Yeah, other than sources that outright say Cap is one of Marvel's top fighters. lol. The Marvel website calls Elektra a superb h2h combatant. It says that Cap is one of earth's finest and that Wolverine is also among the elite. Not one word of this about Elektra. Now, I can believe she's good, maybe ONE Of the best, but definitely not the best. Ogun was better than Wolverine the first time they fought and yet Wolverine still beat him by going berserk. Your ridiculous statements that Logan remembered more of his training after House of M are completely bunk and unsupported. You're just making it up. Show me one shred of evidence that he remembered better fighting techniques afterward. I mean, something that clearly states this not just some strange interpretation based on his fight with Lord Shingen. Wolverine was clearly affected by being shot the second time he fought Shingen. In case you didn't notice - he was struggling with the wound when Mariko placed that thing around him. Whether it was some sort of symbol or not is neither here nor there since he clearly shows signs of being affected by it. There's no indication that Wolverine fought any better after House of M. He didn't do any better against Creed, for example. Just the same.
I see how this works. Whenever Elektra is shown to be weaker than her opponent, it's uncharacteristic and wrong but when Logan is flat out written terribly, it's evidence of Elektra's superiority.
You don't have the first clue when talking about Wolverine. That much is clear. As I said before Ogun was arguably BETTER than stick who was much more skilled than Cap at the time. Yet, Wolverine did fairly well the first time they fought and flat out beat him the second time. So you do the math - Logan beat Stick's contemporary. Elektra was trained by Stick and I don't think she ever surpassed him. If she did, I would like to see scans or be given an issue reference. So anyway, if Logan can beat someone more skilled than Elektra's trainer, he can certainly beat Elektra. ESPECIALLY if he's berserk. She would just get shredded.
Daken is a joke character made by a joke writer. Daniel Way has been writing Wolverine for two years, and he still doesn't have a clue. All Logan does under Way is get beat up by Fury - it doesn't matter if this is House of M because Logan had his training from Ogun - he failed to detect bombs despite his enhanced sense. lol. He fought and still fights by leaping forward growling with his claws extended. Try and find anything by Claremont that shows him fighting this way when Berserk. You might find ONE example, but under Way you will find twenty. Just moronic. Also why does he need some stupid sword when he has six of the planet's sharpest blades in his forearms? Stupid. And Way's been told it's dumb because he's dropped it from Origins.
His characterization of Logan is bunk. He has Wolverine say dumb stuff like "he's the best there is at what we do". Logan doesn't talk like this and never would. Even if he was brainwashed lol. Even if Daken was somehow better, Logan wouldn't say something like that. It's just not him. Also, like I said before Daken's got this strange ability to mystically appear where his opponent isn't looking. Yeah, uhuh. Watch, when the editor makes Way come up with a better explanation, he will probably steal an idea of this board. He's that lame. He doesn't bother with continuity at all. Tries to force his personal version of the character where it doesn't even come close to fitting. He also lies about what the each issue entails. He claimed that there was going to be a battle-royal between Logan and Omega Red yet all we got is the two falling through the street.
She was trying to bring out the skilled "man" in Logan while he was the beast. Once he regained his humanity, he out-classed her in skill and caused her to walk into a checkmate. It wasn't a real fight since Elektra was trying to bring Logan back. Stick did the same thing, and once figured out what was going on, Stick could no longer land shots.
It was still the same character. Logan was still 120 years old and he was still Samurai trained. So losing to Fury is still retarded.
Where did you read it was 2000? It doesn't matter anyway, because the point is Logan doesn't panic. If he's going to lose, he's going to do it calmly and without whining to Elektra. The fact that you don't know this proves you don't really understand the character of Logan.
What comparisons? The first one, Logan out-classed her in skill once he became human again. During Milllar's run, Logan wasn't himself. In fact, Millar's run was the sole reason I came with the name "The Real Wolverine". Was Redeemer even in continuity? If it was, the author - who's name escapes me at present - was way off with the Logan's characterization. But what can you expect - the only person I've ever seen write Logan accurately was Chris Claremont. Even Hama failed a couple of times. Aaron came close but was ultimately wrong on a lot of things. Anyway, writers have come close. Look at how Logan performed during "blood sport" He was pretty much portrayed among the elite of Marvel right then and there. Anyway, when he's written correctly, he fights with all limbs doing something separate. Each limb is independent and his movements are fluid and complex. When people like Way and Millar write him. He kicks like a Karate instructor and leaps into the are screaming "raaarr" making himself vulnerable to judo holds. So far from an accurate understanding of Logan, it's pathetic.
I've never seen an official Marvel biography wildly inaccurate. Marvel owns the characters so what they say they can do is the most accurate. Regardless of what a few misguided authors write, Elektra is, according to Marvel, peak human in speed, strength and reflexes. You, however, need to brush up on your understanding of Wolverine. You have a tendency to interpret certain issues that we've both read in a nonsensical way that baffles me.
Logan has had a machine gun pointed at him from three feet away, and then backflipped out of the path of fire. I'd say that's a much more impressive feat of speed than simply blocking bullets. Heck, that seems pretty average.
Wolverine's done things he had no business doing many many times. Elektra has no business throwing a moose around because she simply lacks the physical strength to do so. Wolverine throwing 1000 pounds threw a wall with one hand is equally as impressive as throwing a moose with one hand. But it makes sense with him, since he was a HF to make him super strong and an unbreakable Skeleton. However, if Elektra does it well...it's just like when Batman hit Hulk hard enough to hurt him. It's bullshit and is written by fanboys for fanboys.
There should at least be a logical explanation telling us why Elektra went from Olympic level to Wolverine-like strength. Without it, you're left with the nonsense of pis writing. Just like if Wolverine were to mysteriously KO Apocalypse at full strength. Based on nothing can you say that a win like that for Logan would be accurate. Yet, if a writer choses to, he can cause such a thing to happen. Doesn't make it accurate. That's why we have Biographies and handbooks - so writers can get it right now and again.
KMC Community Forums
May 27th, 2008 03:51 PM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
or Jinzin arguing against Wolverine? 
