The only thing I've speculated about thus far has been that Wolverine's fighting ability increased a bit since HOM. And it's not as if that isn't supported.
Wolverine wasn't scared of dying, he wasn't even scared. the Wolverine part of him that was in control wanted to be stopped, the hand/hydra part wanted him out of there because he was that damned valuable to them. It has nothing to do with Wolverine being scared of death whatsoever and everything to do with the hand needing their puppet.
His HF was taxed, it is not up for debate...
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"On enough drugs to tranquilize the Hulk"
"You healing factor was pushed to the limit"...
TAXED
How did he display far geater skills? He got beat from one side of the city to the other and had to rabbit, he only did better when he berserkered out. Which is something altogether different than regular ol' Logan.
You "personally favor"... which IS speculation as no such reasoning was EVER given to explain that away as such.
You fail at a lot of things, but these are not exuses, they are reasons, which is why context and canon are important factors when discussing any fictionalized character.
I haven't made anything up or read into anything that wasn't already there.
Wolverine was brainwashed to the point that he was doing what other influences were telling him to do, and he was STILL fighting the brainwashing as much as he could. It's common sense that something like that would hinder performance. It's like trying not to do what your coach in the corner is telling you to do because you really don't want to win, it doesn't HELP performance. Later in Guggenhiems title Wolverine flat out states "don't remember much of it, wasn't in my right mind at the time." One can infer from there that Logan was clearly not himself thusly would not fight completely akin to how he would free of the mind control.
Those are all facts and no one has to read into anything but the words on the pages to know that.
Which doesn't coincide with Wolverine fighting the brainwashing.
Having three people telling you what to do would be distracting enough. Having yourself fighting their conditioning would be worse. He was clearly effected in fighting ability.
The fact is, that YOU have to deal with the fact that in spite of different series, different story arcs, different mini series', one shots, and even guest appearances, or writers, that EVERYTHING these characters go through becomes part of their history, becomes part of what they can and can't do. It becomes part of their CANON, which can be influenced to change their histroy in any part of their career. It may have been the intention of Hulk writers to say that Wolverine couldn't penetrate his skin but that got RETCONNED.. perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the term.
It may or may not have been Millars intention but what was stated in his issues and issues thereafter effect that "intention" regarless.
He killed 200 supervillains on a hellicarrier without taking any real damage, didn't have one bruise to show for it. Same with 2,000 members of the Hand, hell his uniform hadn't even been damaged at all in that fight. When he fought Gorgon he was so obviously using skill it's not funny, able to dodge when Elektra couldn't . Scoring first and second blood on the guy and even stating that he was matching Gorgon's skills (who was obviously an uber villain). So no, nothing after his brainwashing in Millars arc refutes anything about my argument, it supports it.
While brainwashed he had problems with DD.
Without it, he scored killing blows on a guy who no-sold Elektra..
Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
I already said that different writers of course have different interpretations hence the "No SHIT!" when I agreed with it before... but that once again doesn't mean that CANON timelines as with 616 are automatically to be discarded. They aren't. Between interpretations are highs and lows we on KMC use both to find a happy medium for what the character can most likely, and consistently do.
That's why consistency, canon, and retcons are sooooo so important, sure Wolverine may just take bullets on some occasions like nothing, sometimes he gets downed by a machine gun. But when you have writers who explain that his HF is influenced by food and sleep, and/or adrenaline levels we the reader now have a way to reason why he has such low showings without having to resort to "I don't like it, it didn't happen" which is what you're all too familiar with.... I'm not ignoring logic, I'm not ignoring anything. You on the otherhand however, already admitted to disregarding what you don't like...
Yeah equal in skill. Sure. Your handbooks support that too. But that doesn't mean that he's going to take care of Elektra when she still has better feats of speed, and telepathic abilites.
I infered it from existing evidence. At any rate I already stated that it was speculation.
Funny, my lie'n eyes got me believin that he was meditatin AFTER being locked up...
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In their final fight he starts getting his ass kicked as soon as he allows the "Man, the complex thinker" to take control of the fight, and then gets beaten from one part of the roof to the next.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Prove it! What issue, what narration even implies that?
It's complete speculation.
All that's EVER referenced is Sabes Adamantium skeleton, and Apoc's mind control.. NOTHING about further enhancements. Which again, your "official books" state nothing about when Wolverine and Death were compared.
If Wolverine as Death was so enhanced, why did Skrullverine give him the most trouble in a fight?
Oh that's right, cause he WASN'T!
Prove that he was planning on enhancing Creed past the Admantium skeleton that he already had. Or past the Sword, and the tech that Wolverine got afterwards.
Apocalypse DID enhance them.. WITH ADAMANTIUM.. an indestructible skeleton? yeah that's an ehnancement!
He didn't increase their strength, or durability, etc..
If he did? When did they become UN-enhanced? It's not like Archangel got back his feathers and skin tone after he broke Apoc's control, not as if Caliban reverted back to a 100 pound weakling...
Way to be a jackass though.
Sure there are, and most are either A) circumstantial, or B) before Fatal Attractions, as this example is, and even this example is a massively impressive one as Wolverine took multiple gun fire, stab wounds and cuts.
Of course he does, people just run out of ammo, or get killed before that usually happens.
That's how fast his HF works under good circumstances...
Even your hero Claremont recognizes how powerful it can be, healing wounds that would have killed a dozen men over without even slowing his pace.
Why wouldn't I say that? Because it's the truth?!?! Because it completely negates using that as an example at all?
Again, I'm not making anything up, I'm using facts? As I always have, like I alway do.
He didn't take ANY major hits while fighting the Hand under Millar's pen, so I don't know what the hell you're talking about there.
That's just it.. there IS evidence for it. Comparible showings the most recent of which are superior. The FACT that he has reliable memories now.
"at any rate, I already admitted that was speculation"
Did you just compare Cap to an old plane like they're comparible?
Lol
"I don't speculate"> "If Guggenheim had written the fight" pathetic.
So this is nothing more than another "I don't like it, it didn't happen".
So speculation. With no backing to which degree that would be since Logan recognized that afterlife fighting was getting harder, but never said such about fighting on the physical plain and even disarmed Azrael WHILE fighting Shogun easily which would imply that his "weakness" Azrael was referring to was more spiritual than physical.
Rucka had Wolverine shot down while completely calm under which circumstances aren't certain, but the bullets certainly damages serious internal organs as was stated his lungs had collapsed his aorta severed. Rucka also wrote Wolverine to whether multiple explosions so there is a dychotomy however we once again draw what Logan CAN do and take through CONSISTENCY. Elektra>Wolverine by 100% consistency..
"you hypocrite! You're enjoying this as much as I am!". Negated.
And yes.. Yes he did.. 2,000 Hand ninja and Wolverine didn't have one cut or scrape on his uni...
Oh so it's not that leaping through the air sucks, just the results?
Wolverine wasn't berkerk yet. He was pissed with Deadpool, which is freakin obvious. He also had just had had a good deal of damage done to him. Again it's simply not as you portrayed it.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Logan meditated twice, my bad - I thought you referring to the FIRST time he meditated - that still doesn't change the fact that he was still struggling with his beastly mind throughout the fight. I'm sorry I can't provide scans but see the panel where Logan pops his claws in rage and elektra says something to the affect of "the skilled warrior doesn't lose his cool" - I'm paraphrasing but that's what happened and then he retracted his claws. He was struggling the whole time.
Also, wasn't the Redeemer the only fight between Elektra and Wolverine at the time? I mean, aside from 103 because Logan wasn't himself that fight. I mean, they've only fought when he was in a weakened State aside from the Redeemer so how her being greater consistent? Sure, she has telepathy, but Wolverine is supposed to be immune to that. Plus, if he goes berserk, it negates telepathy and as you pointed out, his HF might have to suffer through a he's got what it takes to one-shot her for sure. On the other hand so does she.
Anyway, I don't want to argue about this anymore - you obviously like Millar's writing - I on the other hand think it's a steaming pile of crap and think that Millar can't write Wolverine at all.
I just hate to waste so much bandwidth going through all of this for another week. You have an interesting way of interpreting things that I can't find common ground with. I personally favor the idea that writers make mistakes and that the way a character should be portrayed should be consistent with the overall consensus of who that character is. The only problem with Wolverine - he's written by so many people. Everyone has their own take on him. I've never seen a writer get him as well as Claremont. Ever. But I'm biased because I really like Claremont's writing. Some people prefer Hama's Wolverine, but I like Chris'. I guess you could say, there really is NO consensus on Wolverine. He changes drastically from writer to writer in ways that just can't be logically explained by cannon. It's just not there, sorry.
Cause it's against his character to pop his claws, though he's done so out of sheer reflex multiple times, and done so for effect, threat, or just because multitudes of times more after that.
In Nemesis he was also himself. And I still think that 103 is well up for debate.
I don't know if I "like" Millars writing or not, I'm just stating what happened with no indication one way or the other as to if it fits my personal preference simply because my preference on canon material doesn't matter.
Which is again why we have to defer to CONSISTENCY which was the whole point to begin with.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Nemesis he was missing a piece of his soul that changed the way he fought. Plus, how is it up for debate when Elektra was still lecturing Wolverine on animalistic pride causing him to use that "unprofitable" opening move?
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"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Jun 9th, 2008 07:18 PM
pathetic.
. 
