I never though that I would be lectured on the matter of Dooku>Anakin. I agree completely with what you have posted Janus, and I think that the fight is ridiculous. I dont see how Anakin could have won with such ease (yes it was with ease as described in the novel) when Dooku is in another league in terms of force experience, saber experience and combat experience overall. It doesnt make sense to me and never will. But 95% of members here would be quick to correct me if I was to argue the case of Dooku>Anakin.
Whoa. So many things wrong. Considering ROTS dvd has Nick placing Anakin on the same level as Palpatine and Yoda in terms of lightsaber skills. And Nick is in charge of all the duels in Star Wars so his word is cannon.
You are using an A>B>C logic here. I can easily say that Dooku defeated Mace before and Anakin defeated Dooku. So by your own logic Anakin beats Mace. See how that works?
And everyone seems to b!tch, whine, and complain that Anakin managed to close in the distance. Using once again your own logic I can say that Mace didn't best Palpatine with skill or style because Mace just got in close and kicked Palpatine to throw him back. Once again using your same logic.
And by your logic once more Yoda lost to Palpatine but Mace won so by your logic once again Mace is better then Yoda. Face it, Dooku lost. Anakin was better and forced Dooku on the complete defense and even had him backing down. So get over it.
Is "overpowering" someone not an example of superior skill? It certainly was with you during the case of Sidious and Mace. Why is it not now?
The novelization makes it clear, Janus. Once Anakin used his rage as a weapon: "Dooku is already dead. The rest is mere detail." That doesn't seem to be a quote based upon brute strength or sheer luck as the case may have it.
Also, when did Grievous come close to killing Obi-Wan? The only time that that happened is when Obi-Wan was foolish enough to engage General Grievous in melee combat. Other than that, he wasted him in lightsaber combat.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Whoa. No, it's not. I already fought this fight months ago: Nick Gillard doesn't write canon. He's not GL. He's not GL's mouthpiece. He's a stunt coordinator. By this logic, the gaffer on PotC can tell us who's better between Sparrow and Turner.
You need a serious course in sarcasm. And why is it that everyone hurls this "A>B>C" shit at me all the time, without substantiating it?
That was 13 years before the events of RotS. How is it relevant? We can't measure how much either have grown, save to say that Dooku and Mace of RotS are NOT the same as they were years ago. Mace could have surpassed Dooku, or he could have become near his level of power and skill though focused in different ways. Since Dooku and Mace fight two DIFFERENT ways, it's impossible to say they're equal ever. Apples and oranges, really.
You totally missed the point. Reread it again. Maybe that will help.
Uh... No. Anakin beat Dooku in that scenario.
Put the scenario in context!
Dooku didn't use the Force against him, though we see clearly that Dooku is leagues above Obi-Wan in the Force. And we KNOW that Anakin can't best Obi-Wan in the Force.
Dooku really wasn't trying very hard. I don't give a goddamn what you read in the Anakin Bible a.k.a. RotS novelisation; any fool can tell he's just getting his kicks out of toying with the kid.
Anakin did a smart move by doing what he did. I applaud his cunning.
However...
Having one cunning move doesn't equate to him being the better overall fighter. I don't see how that concept eludes people around here. I mean, TPM Obi-Wan beat Maul with a cunning, unexpected attack.
"OMFG, he r teh bettur!!!!111ONEONEELEVEN"
Seriously. Anakin did not beat Dooku into a corner, steal his wallet, mess up his hair, and then saber his hands off. He pushed forward with his superior physical strength and took advantage at one key moment. If the old man had kept him farther back or force gripped his ass, it'd be lights out for Annie.
What you're arguing basically is that Anakin would be that fortunate in every single scenario against Dooku. I'm submitting that he wouldn't. I've proved that Dooku was superior in Force powers compared to Obi-Wan, and that Anakin can't best Obi-Wan in the Force. Likewise, Anakin couldn't best Obi-Wan in a pitched battle when Dooku regularly puts Obi-Wan on his ass. How does it follow that Dooku is somehow always worse than Anakin in saber fighting?
Answer? It doesn't. The kid was an opportunist.
They should make a monument to your obtuse-ness. But then, it'd be hard to find anything more dense then the original. Perhaps granite?
Really, you seemed to gloss over me mocking Rampant Ox's argument which was, itself, horribly faulty. I've noted that the fighters all fight differently, and that we can't draw up parallels based on their saber fighting. If one is a fencer and the other a samurai, obviously they aren't equals in the same manner. They can't be. It's simple.
Yoda barely lost to Palpatine, and it was by sheer good luck that Palpatine isn't a bloody smear on the senate floor. Mace could floor Sidious in the enclosed space with a saber, but Yoda could dodge the pods and contend with sith lighting with his bare hands. Obviously, Yoda is a step above Mace Windu in combating Sith Lords. Don't mistake anything there.
Right. Your argument has no substance. Get over it.
No, it's not. That's glaringly obvious. An earthmover can overpower me. Is it the better saber fighter? Don't be ridiculous, Escape. Anakin did not defeat Dooku with pure skill; he used an opportunity and physical strength to unhand his opponent. You wouldn't say that TPM Obi-Wan had superior skill than Darth Maul when the former used his opportunity to cut the latter down. Likewise, you wouldn't say that RotJ Luke was of the superior talents when he battered at his father like Ray Charles at the batter's plate while daddy suddenly stopped displaying his awesome force control and strength, playing the victim.
In the close quarters, Anakin's style proved to be the better. His unorthodox method proved to be the trump of the two approaches. However, this doesn't equate overall betterness at combat. It simply doesn't. If it did, TPM Obi-Wan is better than Maul because he bisected him. Artoo can defeat super battle droids at the drop of a hat in all scenarios. And Han Solo can destroy galaxy-famous bounty hunters with his eyes closed and his back turned.
Seriously. Put things in context.
What is this supported by? Not the canon movie material. This is Anakin fellating coming from that god-awful bullshit novelization. Anakin used his rage as a weapon against Obi-Wan for eight and a half minutes; I guess Obi-Wan had Rage-Block, or is he better than Dooku and he just likes being beaten by the old man and thrown around?
How ****ing sad is this quote, anyways? Artistic license, anyone?
You must have slept through that part of the movie.
So lightsaber combat is suddenly not melee combat? So I guess those were projectiles that moved REALLY SLOWLY at the ends of their flashlight handles, huh? Master of semantics much?
Obi-Wan had the more refined style when it was straight saber to saber, and the jedi could dictate the distance and rules some. Obviously once Grievous stopped playing by the rules Obi-Wan had to think fast or lose his head. By your logic you would have us believing that Grievous was damn-near superior to Obi-Wan since he could beat the crap out of him by acting unpredictable in a few spots. But the fact was that Obi-Wan had the Force; Greivous didn't. And Obi-Wan was the better saber fighter. So obviously being unorthodox doesn't equate being the better fighter. Grievous fought strangely and with the element of surprise and killed a lot of famous Jedi in his time, but when push comes to shove, he's not in the top ten in saber mastery, is he?
"Lord Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. Had he been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."
- Emperor Palpatine, Rise of Darth Vader, page 123.
The Emperor (who was watching the fight, if you forget) seems to think that Count Dooku simply wasn't strong enough in the dark side to have beaten Anakin in that fight.
Likewise, George Lucas said that "Anakin proved his strength by killing Dooku" and that the whole fight was a set up to see which one of them was more powerful. The fight determined that when Count Dooku lost his head and Anakin walked out alive.
I just find it so damn funny how it has come to this. You're arguing that Anakin did not have the superior skill, despite that he "overpowered" Count Dooku by your own words?
That the novelization (which, by the way, sorry if you don't like it, but it is canon) says "Dooku is already dead. The rest is mere detail."?
That the script itself said that as the fight progressed, Dooku and Obi-Wan got tired, and Anakin only got stronger?
By your logic, there is nothing to indicate that Mace > Sidious in anything. Anakin "used physical strength" to overpower Dooku? Mace kicked Sidious in the face.
It took skill for Anakin to bypass Dooku's defenses, close in the distance, and then slice off his arms. Face it, it wasn't luck it was skill.
He pushed forward with his superior physical strength
And that's the entire point of fighting. To use what you have to win a fight. So by Dooku using his superior mastery of the Force to beat Obi-Wan required skill just like Anakin using his physical strength to push forward. Use what you have to win.
No, it's not. That's glaringly obvious. An earthmover can overpower me. Is it the better saber fighter? Don't be ridiculous, Escape. Anakin did not defeat Dooku with pure skill; he used an opportunity and physical strength to unhand his opponent. You wouldn't say that TPM Obi-Wan had superior skill than Darth Maul when the former used his opportunity to cut the latter down. Likewise, you wouldn't say that RotJ Luke was of the superior talents when he battered at his father like Ray Charles at the batter's plate while daddy suddenly stopped displaying his awesome force control and strength, playing the victim.
In the close quarters, Anakin's style proved to be the better. His unorthodox method proved to be the trump of the two approaches. However, this doesn't equate overall betterness at combat. It simply doesn't. If it did, TPM Obi-Wan is better than Maul because he bisected him. Artoo can defeat super battle droids at the drop of a hat in all scenarios. And Han Solo can destroy galaxy-famous bounty hunters with his eyes closed and his back turned.
Seriously. Put things in context.
By your logic Dooku didn't beat Obi-Wan with pure skill; he used an opportunity and mastery of the Force (physical strength) to unhand his opponent. So you are just throwing out one's own feats in order to make them seem weak compared to the one you want to win.
Anakin bested Dooku. You want proof? Go watch Revenge of the Sith. There's all the proof you need. Even the Novel, Nick, and the Script confirms that Anakin bested Dooku.
See the reason that Dooku got outdueld by Anakin is that 1) Anakin just has insane saber skill and 2) Dooku couldn't handle the amount of force that Skywalker was pummeling him with. Makashi doesn't provide enough kinetic energy to fight Djem So head on. Basically, Anakin just beat Dooku into the ground.
The thing is that Vaapad is said to produce MORE kinetic energy then Djem So does, its like the ultimate "pummeling" style, not only that but its extremely fast to boot. So Mace wouldn't have the same problem Dooku had with Anakin. And since Mace has shatterpoint, and is just a better force user then Anakin, then Anakin wouldn't beat him IMO.
As well, I used to think that Mace and Dooku were on par in terms of saber skill, and I think that in terms of skill they are in fact equal. However, if Mace's style produces more kinetic energy then Anakin's style, and Dooku lost because of that, then I don't think Dooku could beat Mace in a straight saber duel, he'd fall to the same weakness that he fell to Anakin with.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
What makes this the naked truth, Escape? Palpatine talking to Vader about Dooku not being "stronger in the dark side" is somehow relevant and reflective of the argument at hand? Pfft.
The dark side is giving into negative emotions. I don't see how being more in-tune with that equates to being a better overall fighter. And if Anakin buys that line, he's dumber than I thought. His "strength in the dark side" left his ass fried and maimed on Mustafar. Obviously, it isn't appropriate in every situation, which is one of my main points.
Where is this quote, btw? Is it verbatim? Can you properly determine that GL means strength as in "mastery of the blade and force"? I mean, I would imagine that Anakin is the more proved of the two if Dooku is dead and gone. It's not quite up for debate when the competition is six feet under. But this doesn't address my point- Is Anakin definately better at saber and at the force than Dooku? Or will you rely on more obscure points that aren't reflected in the canon material, which IS the movies themselves?
More misdirection. I find it so damn funny that you refuse to argue my valid points and instead resort to strawmanning and random quotes that aren't put in context.
Or did you misread when I bolded "Put things in context"?
An SUV can overpower me. Is it a better fighter? Answer the question. You presume my intention with the word and then monopolize it to fit your stilted argument. It's sad, really.
The novelization isn't superior canon over the movies, sorry. It's based on the movies, Escape. It can't be superior or held in place of what it's based on, can it? And considering it's factually inaccurate and inconsistant with the movies, which are THE major source of canon in the series, I don't see how it should sway me at all. I mean, if the novelization is canon, Kit Fisto's head was somewhere on the desk in the movies and that poor silly George Lucas forgot to put it in there!
Where, exactly? I just checked it. I didn't see that at all.
Yeah, I suppose Mace dealing with Sidious' ridiculous display of raw aggression and speed and then outdueling the sith lord before said kick was completely irrelevant, right? I guess Mace simply leaned in while Sidious was taking a piss and kicked the saber out of his hand. Seriously, the idea that Mace could LAND a kick on Sidious' saber while the two were fighting just goes to show that Mace was obviously the more skilled of the pair. It wasn't a matter of him using overbearing physical strength to capitolize on Sidious' physical weakness and lack of in-close fighting capability.
Dooku's style is fencing. You can't fence when you're locking wrists with some young kid. In that situation, Anakin used his physical strength, his trump card, to take the kill. In another scenario, there's no certainty that such chance would come up again. Indeed, if Dooku used the Force and kept his distance more, Anakin wouldn't have a prayer. I mean, if I'm having a wild-west shoot out with Doc Holiday and I run up and manhandle his arms while he's trying to shoot me and then shoot him in the head point blank, am I suddenly a better gunfighter than Doc Holiday? Would I beat him in any other scenario? Say, one where he doesn't let me get that damn close?
Context, Escape. If I got in close and stabbed the greatest swordsman in the world with a butter knife and killed him, am I definately better? Or could it be favorable circumstances and prudent judgment on my part?
I've already submitted that Dooku can school Anakin using the Force. The swordplay debate is shakey at best considering.
Where was this skill when he was fighting Obi-Wan? I mean, is Obi-Wan godly compared to everyone else? Anakin somehow has the skill to outduel Dooku (And he most definately be better at swordplay compared to the latter, who has trained in it for decades before he was even a glint in Shmi's eye) and the uber rage-factor, or the strength in the dark side.
... But Obi-Wan just survives all that shit. What, does he have the Easy Button? I mean, Obi-Wan survives the saber duelling, despite being schooled by Dooku. Obi-Wan equally counters the force powers of a raged Anakin, despite being schooled by Dooku. Hell, he even got in on the WWF fighting in the control room.
What could possibly seperate the old Dooku from young, fit, Obi-Wan? Besides physical strength, of course.
Face it; Anakin was fortunate in that Dooku was toying with him and being careless, and he took full advantage of the situation. This doesn't equate to saber mastery, period. Or Han Solo is mightier than Boba Fett with his eyes closed and his back turned, holding a spear.
Well, duh. I never said otherwise.
However, being stronger in a grapple doesn't make you Sir Launcelot with a blade, does it? By this logic, Grievous beat the shit out of Obi-Wan in hand to hand combat. Hence, he is the better combatant of the two.
Oh wait. That isn't accurate, is it?
Where did you get that? Dooku has the superior force power. If I were arguing Force power hierarchy, he'd obviously win. But I'm not; I'm arguing the validity of the obnoxious claim that Anakin is definately all-around better than Count Dooku simply because he got a one-up on him in a grapple. Taking advantage of an opportunity does NOT mean that you're better than your opponent in every scenario. And because of that, it's absolutely foolish to say Anakin will "tool" Dooku in every single fight.
I think that idea is VERY clear and reasonable, considering. You wouldn't argue that TPM Obi-Wan could defeat Maul in another situation, could you? I mean, he slashed him in half while doing his moon-man jump. That's superior skill by your logic, right? I mean, Han Solo totally wtf pwned Boba Fett with his spear while blind and not even facing the right way. He could do that in every situation; Boba's his *****, right?
Is it sinking in now? The claim is ridiculous, and unsupported. I've given you my argument on how Anakin is NOT more powerful than Dooku in the Force. And Anakin's superiority over Dooku in swordsmanship is questionable; it's silly to assume that they'll lock wrists in every single encounter we can think of for them. So the claim that Anakin beats Dooku with ease every time is RIDICULOUS.
I suggest you learn to formulate an argument and read my posts before you spout off again. Your arguing ad naseum is boring.
Please tell me where Mace Windu outdueled Sidious in their fight. Direct me to where he showed his "dominance" over him. That is absolutely ridiculous. If Windu had him outdueled and beaten, he would never have delivered the kick, now would he? Sidious dominated the initial part of that fight, he put Mace (a normally offensive duelist) on the defensive and pushed him back into the main office. The only time that I ever saw Sidious in trouble was when he and Mace got into a saber lock. Then, of course, Mace (the physically stronger of the two) began to show his dominance.
Seriously, the idea that Anakin could overpower Dooku in their fight just goes to show that Anakin is the more skilled of the pair, by your damn logic.
Sidious did have a physical weakness, and he obviously wasn't as strong or as skilled in physical combat anywhere to the degree that Mace was. Perhaps that's why he relied more on speed?
Please, Janus. Hypocrisy.
The novelization, the script, and George Lucas all three confirm that Dooku simply lost due to a lack of skill. Lucas's quotes can be found on the RotS commentary and in the Making of Revenge of the Sith.
Count Dooku being physically beaten by Anakin is the same scenario as Sidious's with Mace.
Considering how that wasn't the situation Janus, your analogy doesn't apply. After Obi-Wan got knocked out - Anakin was pushing Count Dooku back on the defensive the entire time.
As for the whole Force issue, what's that mean? Sidious can WTFPWN Mace in the Force. Does that mean he's always gonna win? Sidious is also more powerful than Count Dooku. Does that mean he's always gonna win?
Ignoring the current argument going on here, I would say the best fencer is probably Dooku. From my version of fencing, Dooku seems the only in Star Wars who most resembles a fencer.
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IT's worth noting that in the movies, the ultimate canon, Palpatine calls Anakin 'more powerful' than DOoku and every single source, from the NEC to the sourcebook, to the Visual Guide, to the visual Dictionary submits sthat anakin was more skilled and more powerful than Dooku and his apparent victory at the start was a result of Obi-wan and Anakin holding back to trick him.
It's unfair to pick and choose, Janus, especially when those sources back Anakin up.
I'll just say this: The best fighter does not always claim victory.
Anakin is not superior to Dooku when they fight in ROTS.
Luke is not superior to Vader when t hey fight in ROTJ.
From personal opinion, I don't think Windu was superior to Sidious in ROTS either. That can, obviously, be argued.
Sure, Mace's kick isn't exactly the easiest thing to pull off, it required skill to pull it off. But that doesn't mean that he's definitely better than Sidious.
Well, according to Lucas, Yoda, Palp and Mace are on the same level, but Yoda is above Mace and that's made clear by Mace's own admission. However, that anakin is superior to Dooku....it does seem apparent. He's definitey more powerful
Based on Anakin’s own style of swordsplay, maybe. The Count is a fencer, relying more on feints, taunts, and psychological attacks to lull his opponent into a comprising position and finish them off. He uses taunts excessively. If you read the passage in ROTS novelization.
With Respect to Dooku's psychological advantage and superiour tactics; ROTS Novelization Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. «I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child.»
He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?»
Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions.
Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round
each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could. Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.
From the psychological standpoint, Dooku was far superior. Anakin's psychological disadvantage was what lead to him being cut up by what you people call an [sarcasm]inferior duelist[/sarcasm].
And before people jump in and say "No wayzz!111... tehh poor little Ani was not fighting well because his wife turnt against him," I say look at the big picture. If we were to go by this argument (which I have not yet seen supported in the noveliztion, that Anakin’s fury was a negative impact), then Obi Wan is in an even worse position. He was striking down the boy he loved as a younger brother. Clearly his battle skills should be decreased. And yet, the [sarcasm] inferior [/sarcasm] duelist was able to win. Explain to me why the Count would not, given he was beating Anakin by virtue of taunts and superior tactics in the afore mentioned passage, before “Sidious decided to intervene”.
In summary, pure brute strength and teh PoWA! are NOT what determines who is the best fighter. Otherwise the whole intelligent fighting and tactics concept would be flushed down the drain. Overall, the Count possesses far more finesse in his duels, enabling him to defeat Anakin nine times out of ten.
P.S: I agree with Janus on the idea that the count, decided for some reason (hint) not to use his force powers. Logical inconsistencies. No waayyy!
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Last edited by zephiel7 on Nov 26th, 2006 at 09:55 PM
Please, Zephiel. Sidious himself refers to Anakin as "more powerful" than Count Dooku, to General Grievous. Considering how he'd monitored Anakin throughout the course of the war, as well as Count Dooku (for ten years during which he lorded over Tyranus), and the very undeniable fact that he was present during the fight between them, I'd say that he would be an authority on the issue - and, in fact, the only one.
Refute that.
So, no. No, there is no "maybe". Anakin's raw power far exceeds Count Dooku's own. There is no competition; no contest. It is also quite obvious that Anakin's lightsaber skills must be superior, as he had Dooku on the defensive throughout the second portion of that fight without Obi-Wan's help.
The same novelization that you cite states that once Anakin chose to end the fight: "Dooku is already dead. The rest is mere detail.". Once again - that sort've display of dominance (especially one that is taken into account from the omniscient storyteller) was not shown at all through Count Dooku.
It is crystal clear that Anakin's "power" exceeds Dooku's own. His strength in the Force makes Dooku's look pathetic (even Yoda has testified that the Force is the strongest with Anakin than it has been in any of his students - Dark Rendezvous) in comparison. His raw feats (demolishing a massive ceiling by screaming) and signs of progression - the very fact that he was able to contend with a Count Dooku in combat, despite being considerably younger and with less experience - also testifies that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku.
The only thing that you have said that is remotely true is that Dooku had the dominant psychological edge against Anakin and the superior mastery to the Force. Is that to testify to victory completely?
In such case, I'd hate to see Dooku try to take on Sidious. Dooku's terrified of him (meaning Sidious had the dominant psychological factor), and is far more powerful in the Force. Are we to immediately throw away any possible hope for victory?
Once again - Force powers don't mean instant victory. Mace vs. Sidious is also testified to that.
Please Escape, where up there did I state that Dooku was more powerful. Did I not agree with you in the other thread, that Anakin may be "more powerful?"
I was stating, for the nth time, that intelligent fighting, tactics, taunts play equally as much a role in determining who is the better duelist as "power."
Finally, you decide to post what I actually put instead of criticizing me on what I didn't.
Actually, yes...I would say Sidious wins nine point five times out of ten.
In that Vaapad is a "superconducting loop for the darkness" that is really IMO what led to Mace being able to withstand the lightning. He saw the "shatterpoint" of the Sith.
To address the point at hand, I wasn't saying he would win solely based on his force skills but it would sure as hell help.
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Last edited by zephiel7 on Nov 26th, 2006 at 10:29 PM
The point is that you implied that it is not actually concrete that Anakin is more powerful. I am making it final that he is and by a vast amount.
I didn't deny it when you proved it, Zephiel.
You implied that Anakin had no hope of victory. Not putting words in your mouth, but you implied it as such. If that is the case, Count Dooku doesn't have a chance. Not even a slight one. The psychological edge is even greater than the one that Dooku has on Anakin. Dooku was terrified to be in hologram communication with Sidious. He might, quite possibly, turn tail and flee at ever the sight of a physical encounter - which is likely why he never opted for treachery.
But also, like I said, Sidious > Dooku in power. The point is, obviously, Anakin has more of a chance than you give him credit for.
The same applied to Yoda vs. Sidious and Dooku vs. Yoda. Force powers don't always spell out victory. Not always.
Nov 25th, 2006 05:30 AM
