LMAO! It's a ****ing technical error! If Kenobi's lightsabre was shorting out, why is it fully ignited a few moments later? And why didn't Vader just kill him then?
No, Vader could not.
First off, when Dooku tried using Force lightning, Obi-Wan 'grounded' it with his lightsaber. Dooku did not defeat Obi-Wan by using the Force, but through his superior fencing skills with a lightsaber.
Second, once Vader was maimed and put into his armor, not only could he not use Force lightning, but the suit was restrictive. After 20 years, he had learned to compensate to for it, but he was still nowhere near as acrobatic as he used to be in his 20s.
Thirdly, if this is indeed ESB Vader vs RotS Obi-Wan, then Obi-Wan would have the advantage of being nearly a decade younger than Vader and being a superior swordsman. Vader never defeated Obi-Wan in combat. In ANH, Obi-Wan stopped fighting and let Vader win. Had he wanted to do so, he could probably have continued indefinitely, but I doubt Vader's artificial respirators could cope with extendeded bouts of physical exertion.
[Edit to add]
The Force grip and push that Dooku used in RotS is no different to the same move Maul used in TPM, and look how that duel worked out... Dooku might have caught Obi-Wan off guard, but that is because he has greater knowledge of the Force. However, chucking someone across a room, does not count as wtf pwning, nor does using the Force to pull a piece of gantry ontop of someone who is already unconscious, so unable to defend themself. The fight took place in that manner for story necessity, but could be interepreted that Dooku viewed Obi-Wan as a greater threat than Anakin, so removed him from the fight by knocking him out and pinning him beneath the gantry so he could focus his attention on fighting Anakin.
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Last edited by Darth Vious on May 31st, 2006 at 04:16 PM
It doesn't matter if he actually stopped fighting or not. The novelization states if Obi-Wan could have overcame Vader, he would have or something to that effect.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
On the contrary, it makes all the difference. In the movie (which takes precedence over a novelization for canon accuracy) Obi-Wan stopped blocking Vader's attacks, and held his saber as a meditative focus. Vader did not overcome his defence or overpower him. Obi-Wan stopped because he chose to, not because he had to.
As above, the movie takes precedence over a novelization for canon accuracy.
Actually, show me where in the movie that it ever states anything otherwise you moron?
Ah, yes it doesn't.
If Obi-Wan could have stopped him he would have - which is why it makes no difference. Do you understand that? The novelization doesn't contradict the movie because for:
1.) Obi-Wan doesn't overcome Vader.
2.) There's no mention of Obi-Wan even being able to overcome Vader.
The entire point is just that - IF Obi-Wan COULD HAVE stopped him he WOULD HAVE.
Your argument fails because:
1.) You said Obi-Wan could've continued, and due to Vader's machine parts not being able to keep up (what BS is that anyways?) he would lose. The novelization states otherwise - specifically that Obi-Wan could not defeat Vader.
2.) You fail to realize this.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
They stalemated and0 Kenobi gave up because he knew he couldn't win. Mecha-Vader is tougher than you give him credit for; or Kenobi is worse than you give him credit for. Pick one.
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Traya, read Darth Vader's entry in SW databank or read the novel. The choice is yours. The only difference is that in the novel it specifically states that both Obi Wan and Vader have grown stronger.
Vader beat a more powerful version of Kenobi. He can beat this one. Vader wins.
ROTS Anakin practically mowed down the Jedi Knights defending the Temple. How does a Darth Vader who was defeated by 7 knights and masters compare with a Jedi Master who nearly killed him before he was put into that suit that restrains his movements? Possibly, Vader will try and kill Kenobi using his superior Force Powers, but if Obi-Wan can move fast enough, he might be able to avoid this.
I'm not saying that Vader in the suit is weak. He managed to kill the Dark Woman, and, like Avis said, killed 5/7 Jedi at once. Kenobi has his work cut out for him, but I can see him coming out of this fight victorious.
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"Today was good. Today was fun. Tomorrow is another one." -Dr. Seuss
Want to try clarrifying that half-assed point without having to resort to unnecessary insults?
In the movie (which supercedes the novel for validity) Obi-Wan is having absolutely no trouble defending against Vader. That is the entire point behind his style of fighting. It is almost entirely defensive. The fact that he looks to Luke and gives him a 'check this shit out..." look, before raising his saber to his face and closing his eyes (clearly meditation) makes it pretty clear that he did so intentionally. He knew that doing so would cost him his life, but it was a choice he made himself. It is clear that he was not being overcome and struck down through a flaw in his defence, but because he chose to give no defence. For someone with a Japanese title, you clearly have little knowledge of the concept of bushido, which is one of the things Lucas drew on when creating the Jedi.
You don't understand. Obi-Wan did not want to stop Vader. He wanted to be struck down so he could become one with the Force. As I said above, he was only struck down because he stopped fighting. Also, you are forgetting that for the purposes of the thread, it would be Obi-Wan from RotS, not ANH. What happened when Obi-Wan fought Vader in RotS (when Vader was at the height of his power)? Oh yes, he cut his arm and legs off... When Vader was maimed and put into the suit, he lost almost half his power (Lucas has said as much himself) Even studying for a further twenty years is not going to allow him to replace the midichlorians (which allowed him to interact with the Force) that were lost when his arm and legs were cut off.
Note Vader's breathing in RotJ. It is much faster and shallower than in ANH. Even before the damage caused by Palpatine's Force lightning, it is obvious that the exertion was taxing the respirator's ability to function and allow Vader to fight against someone twenty years younger than him. Once more, this duel would involve Obi-Wan being younger than Vader.
It doesn't matter what the novelization states, because reference from a movie supercedes a novelization in terms of validity. Regardless of what a novel states, GL has made it perfectly clear that he only considers material from the six movies as accurate. The question does not involve novelization or EU characters, but two canon characters as they appeared in the movies that were referenced.
You fail to realize that
[Edit to fix quote]
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Last edited by Darth Vious on Jun 1st, 2006 at 02:55 PM
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I have no idea how Obi Wan kept on fighting with this malfunctioning saber but he is a master after all. But let's imagine how confusing and hard this fight must have been for Vader. He is a genius how he could keep focus and fight the bendy saber technique!!!
Okay - I mean his form is for defense...anyways, did Dooku have extreme trouble blocking Yoda's strikes? Did Yoda have trouble blocking Dooku's strikes? The entire point is, and this contradicts the movie in no way, that if Kenobi could've taken Vader, he would have. How simple is that? Because the fight lasted all of how long? 2-3 minutes of slow paced movement?
You said Kenobi would've won if the fight went on; the novelization contradicts you, not the movie. Tell me - do you know if Obi-Wan made his "plan" up out of thin air or not?
And, who is arguing against that? I'm not. All I'm saying IS that IF Obi-Wan COULD HAVE overcome Vader he WOULD HAVE - either he realized that from the very beginning or realized it during their fight.
Now you are skewing my perspective. I never said Vader was on the verge of wrecking shit with Obi-Wan during the fight we saw, all I said is that if Obi-Wan could've overcome him, he would have - do you understand how simple it is? Obi-Wan could not defeat Vader, and I also never said he was struck down my a "flaw in his defense" so save the whole "Bushido bullshit" for someone else, boy.
You're right, he didn't want to stop him because he friggin' couldn't. If he was able to stop him, he f***ing would have - that's the entire point, he would've changed his plans, done something, I don't know.
Oh yes, who got put in the Dragon Sleeper hold? Obi-Wan. Who got dropkicked? Obi-Wan. Who, if the fight was continued and was on even ground, would've won? Ana-friggin'-kin.
And?
Dooku was older than both Anakin and Obi-Wan. Yoda was older than Palpatine. Vader was older than Luke - need I go on? And Vader has displayed a nice show of agility, too.
Nothing in the movie contradicts the fact that Obi-Wan couldn't have overcame Vader.
ANH novel credited as written by George Lucas, so obviously approval was given for the novel on a level.
You actually succeed in repeating what you have to say over and over, and still it's as meaningless an anything else. Oh, and 2.) You fail to realize this.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Dooku's style of fencing was geared entirely towards blade to blade combat. Obi-Wan's was not. Yoda is nearly 1000 years old. His skill never comes into question given the time he has had to learn and perfect his techniques.
No. He would not have taken Vader because it was never his intention of doing so. He still had to give Luke the incentive to hate Vader and want to continue to learn to be a Jedi. By saying he'd killed his father, that was good, by getting himself killed as well, that was the 'icing on the cake' in making Luke.
I didn't say Obi-Wan would have won if the fight want on. He never planned on beating Vader.
Given Obi-Wan didn't know Vader was on the Death Star till the last minute, it's unlikely that it was an idea he'd been planning for years. It's more likely, that it was a decision he made once the duel started and he knew Luke could see them. Obi-Wan lied to Luke and manipulated him prior to them leaving Tattooine, it would not be out of character for him to make one last manipulation. The look he gives Luke prior to his meditations, makes it clear he is intending 'something', and it is clearly not to continue fighting, seeing as he holds his saber to his head and closes his eyes.
And I'm saying is that it was never his intention to overcome Vader.
Do you understand how simple it is that he never intended to overcome him?
Based on what? The novel? Sorry, but as I said before, the novelization means nothing compared to the movie.
I never said that you did. I was pointing out that he was not struck down through superior technique, but because he chose to stop fighting.
Boy? How old are you?
Why would he? As I said: Stopping Vader was never his plan.
Obi-Wan also drop kicked Anakin. This is not about a martial arts fight, but duelling technique. Had the duel continued in RotS, Anakin would not have won, because he is not good enough to break through Obi-Wan's defences.
Still nothing compared to the agility he displayed when he was in his 20s
Nothing says that he couldn't have overcome Vader either.
It might have been credited as GL, but it was ghost written, I think by Alan Dean Foster (happy to be corrected there) Since then, Lucas has been very clear that the movies always supercede a novel for validity. Look at the disregard he takes with the EU for example...
No, Obi-wan couldn't defeat Vader, why the HELL ELSE would he be facing him? He thought Vader had to die and encouraged Luke in that direction...Obi-wan was, quite simply, bested.
Okay? The point was that blocking attacks doesn't mean you are doing so effortlessly, or can win simply because of a 2-3 minute fight.
Really? Show me where it says he developed the plan x amount of time prior to arrival.
That contradicts the Jedi way completely. He wants Luke to fall to the Darkside then? Didn't think so. Point invalid.
Hate leads to the Darkside, Obi-Wan was trying to do everything in his power for Luke not to be conflicted by emotions. That was probably the most ridiculous thing you've said yet.
Still you're implying that Obi-Wan wants Luke to give into his emotions - Darkside ones at that? Simply all I can say is "no".
Really? "Had he wanted to do so, he could probably have continued indefinitely, but I doubt Vader's artificial respirators could cope with extendeded bouts of physical exertion." - that is implying Obi-Wan could've made the fight last, and that Vader due to the "extended amounts of physical exertion" (still BS, does Grevious have trouble? Did Vader have trouble tooling Jedi?) would've lost. Maybe not directly, but indirectly at least.
Then why would it be improbable for him to do such because he couldn't overcome Vader?
And this is written in black and white somewhere? The only thing we have to go on is the novelization about overcoming who, and nothing in the movie contradicts it. For all you know he decided to do such, and realized it when he saw Luke.
Shown where? Thought about where? Said where? Proven by who? You? Laughable.
As I've said, it contradicts nothing.
My mistake.
Still, you can say that he sacrificed himself, but that doesn't contradict the fact that he couldn't overcome Vader. Why wouldn't it be possible for him to sacrifice himself because he couldn't overcome Vader, hm?
As I've said, it contradicts nothing.
No, he tripped him.
Actually, as much is already known. The fact you think Obi-Wan would've won tells me something. As well, tell me what you mean by "breaking through his defenses"? Was the Dragon Sleeper not breaking through? He grabbed his damn arms and almost choked him out for Christ's sake while they were in the middle of a duel.
Yeah, no doubt about that - nonetheless he shows us that he's still agile.
Okay, so nothing in the movie contradicts the fact that he either:
a) could've overcame Vader.
or
b) couldn't have overcame Vader.
So, naturally with adding the "either" you admit that it doesn't contradict anything in the movie (unless it was a mistake on your part). Either way, the novel does give insights into this - and it seems the insights are in favor of what I'm arguing.
Well, considering the novel's statement doesn't contradict anything. And, yes it was ghostwritten by Foster, but when you do ghostwrite something, you need consent. Obviously Lucas hired the guy, with approval to put slap his name on it.
You realize how much we're arguing in circles right?
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Jun 1st, 2006 at 09:43 PM
May 31st, 2006 06:38 AM
