A form of energy that's one and the same with the source of all motion in the DCU. When morphing into his Speed Force form, he IS the Speed Force. He's one with all kinetic energy and any form of motion in the DCU. Anything from an eyeblink to a chemical reaction to the rotation of an electron around an atom.
So yes, I consider a being who can quite literally morph into a law of physic regarding kinetics and motion more dangerous and much more powerful than a being who can control moisture....
And Flash'll keep destroying the SOB until he gives up. Flash is the ultimate in patience. A man who can think at lightspeed as an average day of 5 years. Things take forever to him to happen unless he concentrates to slow down his perception.
Once he had to crack 19-digit alpha/numerical computer code, he spent roughly months (in his perception) to crack it. He's got all the time in the world.
Post-Crisis Anti-Monitor. Dr. Alchemy. The Strange One. Etc.
Oh yes. I forgot. According to you, Iceman also has lightspeed perceptions and can think faster than Flash. NOT.
The picosecond it takes to destroy the dupes...Iceman will not realize it's been destroyed. Cause ya know, he's still has human reflexes and all...
I'm sorry, did you say the Flash, a man who's walking pace is Mach 15 would have a difficult time keeping with Iceman, a being with human reflexes...?
This is a probable assumption...if you want to completely ignore the forum rules. Iceman is allowed to know about Flash's superspeed tricks...but Flash isn't allowed to know that Iceman can be a disembodied consciousness? Huh?
Flash will be well aware that the battle is not over (You said, Iceman would likely create multiple dupes...don'tcha think that Flash would be smart enough to realize that maybe Iceman can just reform another dupe...?)
Hardly. You're purposely giving Iceman god-like intelligence and some sort of deeping cunning I've never seen displayed in his character while Flash is dumbass who's just gonna punch everything he sees...
Riiiight.
I got news for you. Flash is much, much, much smarter than Iceman with his powers than Iceman is of HIS powers.
Iceman's inability to use his powers correctly is not a result of PIS or CIS (this refers to a case where a character KNOWINGLY performs stupid acts because of some moral code or rule he abides by; i.e. Superman and his lack of superspeed). He's just not that bright enough to use it that way. I've heard ridiculous theories that Iceman will cunningly freeze the ozone layer and some nonsense or infiltrate the Speed Force (not possible...) and...um freeze it. Flash has displayed the ability to his powers on high end feats smartly and creatively. Iceman? With the exception of less than a dozen feats, most them in a alternate timeline in another dimension, Iceman hasn't displayed to be A) smart enough or B) creative enough to use his powers as described. In fact he has no indication he IS that smart to use it that way. Blairwind and you certainly are. But Iceman. Nope. He's still gonna throw icebeams and surf around....
And Iceman becoming one with all moisture on Earth is? Or transforming into a fog of ice shards?
Please curb the bias. Everything you've described previously and below is COMPLETELY out of character for Iceman.
What's in character for Iceman? Iceslides and Icebeams. And the occassional snowball. That's it.
It's merely an analogy to prove my point that Iceman cannot perceive the Flash. Much less attack him...
Actually, that's happened...against Colbalt Blue (twin brother of Barry Allen.) Granted it was a couple of countries over but it happened nonetheless...
Since Mark Waid started writing his book. Again, you don't understand Flash's powers. He has LITERALLY no limit to his speed. He can be as damn fast as he wants to be provided channels the Speed Force. Which doesn't take long, in fact most of his comics if you read them show the Flash doing impossible things while everyone else in the world is frozen. Like when he outran Death to the end of time.
Once again, you seem to just ignore that fact that:
A) Flash will be moving too damn fast to perceive much less concentrate on. Iceman's concentration to launch an attack is equivalent to a day to the Flash.
B) Iceman cannot think faster than the Flash. Let's say in a far-off happyland, Iceman manages to start to freeze Flash's blood. There are several reasons why it wouldn't work:
1) His metabolism and bodily functions are at superspeed to. Can Iceman freeze a normal person's blood? Yep. Can he freeze the bloodflow of a person that moves at the speed of sound? No. It would be like trying to freeze a tsunami with the mass of a small moon with an icecube during the 1978 heatwave. Captain Cold once shot the Flash pointblank at his face. The icegun can freeze anything it touches to absolute ZERO. And it did. His face, his skull, his brain and his blood. Did it last? Nope. One panel later, the ice shattered and melted and the Flash put on his Flash costume to kick some ass.
2) Flash as stated above as foe that squarely shows that freezing in any at all forms does not work AT ALL on the Flash for less than second. His metabolism just melts the ice. His connection to the Speed Force causes his bodily molecules to generate hyperkinectivity, speeding up his cells to the point where it is impossible to freeze him. Or his Speed Force armour (his costume is actually an armour) simply prevents it from happening.
Cold. Flash can run in space unprotected as shown in the Imperiux saga AND he regularly gets shot with a icegun projecting absolute zero temperatures. Flash never gets cold...
Yep. A mutant with normal human perceptions without access to a source of power that pretty much nullifies any temperature attacks is an excellent example....
I'm sorry. You did it again. Did you just say that Iceman will attack the Flash before the Flash can even realize he's being attacked? And did you just say Iceman's "flash" (Hah!) freeze is so instanteneous that the Flash won't perceive it coming much less out run it? Did you also say that Iceman will somehow pinpoint where the speed demon is? And finally, no you did not just say that any sort of freezing attack will work on the Flash when Captain Cold and the the DC1million Captain Cold have all tried and failed...?
And this should tell you something....
What is this? 1994? That's. Not. True. Anymore. Wally got over that at the end of Waid's run. Your info's outdated by at least 10 years...
And why not? What? Is the first blow going to be so exhausting that he'll suddenly go as fast as an Asian grandmother?
......Okay. THINK. Iceman (somehow by a miracle) has to get an idea where Flash is. Than he has to concentrate his powers to unleash the attack. Than he actually has to go through with the attack.
Flash? The Speed Formula is a seven-syllable word. You REALLY believe that a man who can think, react and TALK at lightspeed will take as much time as Iceman takes to concentrate to say a seven-syllable word? NO. Everytime he's said the equation, everybody else around him except his foe and his allies were stock-stone statues. The time it will take to say the damn equation is so fast it's literally unquiantifiable....
Freezing Wally isn't the end of the battle either...
He's been frozen or attempted to be frozen since he was a teenager. He's been popsicled more than any other comic book character in comics.
How can Flash destroy or at least disperse Iceman.
Simple. He states the Speed Formula. Time freezes. He uses his molecular control powers via Speed Force vibrational techniques to attune his eyesight to perceive water molecules (he uses this power regularly against Dr. Alchemy) and disrupts their molecular structure until collapses. Or he can just kinetic bomb everything until molecule is destroyed (air isn't required; he can breath when time is frozen right?) Iceman will likely die? Why. Well, when Iceman inhabits a body of water or moisture, he resides in that said body. What if every water molecule i the are he resides in his instantly destroyed? Poor Bobby is a consciousness without a body, and that usually means he's dead....
Or he can just absorb the kinetic energy of the entire planet again and make all molecular motion freeze. Bobby can't manipulate water moleclues if the water molecules are as good as rocks...
Yes, because Iceman becomes one with all moisture and flashfreezes people's bloodflow is so in character for him....
In character Iceman is going to lose this fight very badly, if you want to go by "in character" Iceslides and icebeams. That's it...
For the benefit of a doubt, let's say no. Let's say a bloodlusted Flash is going pretty damn near the speed of light instanteneously. You're kidding yourself. You're more or less saying that Flash will attack first...but Iceman will attack right after and actually manage to hit the Flash. Bull. He couldn't react that fast even if Wally was going at Mach 10...
Accleration with the Flash is not 0 to 60 in five seconds like you would have us believe...
Iceman's freeze attacks are faster than the Flash or nearly as fast.
Seriously though, Flash is just on another level altogether. I think he could beat Silver Surfer if he tried hard enough
I mean:
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Flash was literally on one side of the galaxy, RAN back to Earth, set up the frequency all around the world, circling the globe a million times and BEAT A BEING WHO CAN TELEPORT INSTANTENEOUSLY. Insanteneouly. Hell, the Cosmic Gambler had ALREADY teleported when Flash began to run....
I mean, Jesus!
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Last edited by Draco69 on Jul 28th, 2006 at 12:06 AM
Insulting me with an implication that I do not think of things from a logical standpoint isn't going to get you anywhere, friend. If you couldn't read the humor in my print, I was joking. I was pretending to be bitter about it, because I root for the under dog. Calm yourself, jesus.
Actually, I was referring to everyone. More specifically Jrodslam. Kinda like addressing the audience but really addressing that kid who won't stop fake farting in the audience, ya know?
I agree with ya Draco....Im with Soljer in that Im rooting for the underdog and the only way I can see him winning is through a cop out:
almost no one knows that Iceman can moiusture inversion himself. Therefore its not common knowledge therefore Flash wouldnt know about it at the start of the fight. He punches, shatters and stops.
I'm pretty sure that wouldn't kill Bobby.As strange as it sounds this has happened to Iceman before.Way back in the 1st Iceman limited series an Abtsract called Oblivion sent his minions back in time to kill Bobby's parents and actually killed his father and he somehow lived through it only to come back and kick Oblivions ass.Oblivion by the way is to Death as Infinity is to Eternity.
Indeed Flash could keep destroying the decoys. Iceman may not even reform or make a decoy right away. He may wait for Flash to stop and take the moisture from within Flash. Flash's patience goes both ways. Yes things dont move at a fast enough pace for him, but then again he also hates it. As patient as he is at times, hes also quick to get impatient and wrecless.
Id like to see those. Sounds interesting. Scans?
According to me, Iceman has lightspeed perceptions? I never stated that or implied it. Dont put words in my mouth. I merely stated that when Iceman makes his clones, its instant. Its not the typical sculpting most would be used to. When he flash-freezes, it happens with a blink of an eye. I also stated that in the past Flash has had issues adapting to something that moves instantly or almost instantly. It seems that according to you, Flash starts off a fight moving at 99% lightspeed. I never denied Flash is a slow thinker nor have i implied Bobby thinks faster.
Read above. Iceman flash-freezing something will indeed throw Flash off balance. Especially considering theres not much Iceman has to do to apply a flash-freeze.
I never stated Iceman would know about Flash's superspeed tricks while Flash knows nothing about Icemans abilities.
After the intitial shatter, whats Flash's next move. If ICeman were to create a dupe or multiple and Flash destroys them, then what? I dont doubt Flash would be smart enough to know Bobby can create another dupe, but youmake is seem as if Flash already knows Bobbys gonna do it. When shattered, Bobby has even more options to attack than while in regular form. Attacks that wouldnt be expected nor seen.
In alot of Iceman's solo fights, he does fight with some smarts. Once again youre making my statements out to be something they arent. Im not giving Iceman god-like intelligence in the slightest. Hes has shown to be cunning and creative on occasions though. However when he is fighting with a team, he does fight moreso like an idiot and clown. You also make it seem like Flash is some type of strategic combatant off the bat. Many of the time he does punch everything he sees if he feels that all thats needed. Alot of the time that doesnt work and then as a result he is forced to using his "Flash facts" or other means of defeat. Im as much of a Flash supporter as anyone else, but dont make him out to be some quick to the point scholar when it comes to battle when thats certainly not the case alot of the time until the end of battles.
I do agree with you in saying that Flash is alot smarter in his use of powers than Iceman is. Thats a fact nobody can deny. Is just too bad Iceman doesnt have a mantle/legacy to carry. I reckon hed be much better, but its still no excuse. Hes an underachiever.
I never mentioned Iceman becoming one with all the moisute on Earth as a start-off tactic in a 1on1 battle. Youre the one who stated Flash would be invisible moving at lightspeed and such. I mention Icemans other forms as a result of being shattered of evaporated. You mentioned Flash doesnt require a physical form. I merely stated Iceman doesnt require one either. Im not being bias at all. I just try to mention logical abilities Iceman can display at a start of the fight. You mention Flash abilities that he normally dont do till a last resort(most of the time).
I wont argue that a typical Iceman fight would be ice-beams, ice-blocks or ice-slide. Just like a typical Flash fight would be fast punches, use some props and maybe a kinetic energy steal. Thats it for Flash for the most part as well. Or does he usualy start off fights going lightspeed and turning into energy?
That would only prove to be more valid in the beginning of the fight.
Aganst Cobalt, he grabbed him and ran with him to those Countries. I believe he also has a running start from after saving Barry, correct? I wonder if hed be able to carry Iceman without freezing to him with a touch?
Can you show an example of Flash going lightspeed instantly? Id like to see it. Flash doesnt have to go lightspeed just for everyone else around him to appear to be frozen. When he outran Death to the end of time, i dont think he was going light speed. He was merely time traveling. You dont have to be going lightspeed to time travel.
It woud seem like a day to the Flash if momentum is built up or hes moving at near lightspeeds.
I never stated Iceman thinks faster than Flash.
You say Iceman cant freeze the blood of someone who moves at the speed of sound. That an assumption on your part. Flash has been shot with a clone gun of Captain Cold and was frozen solid. Colds words were "Encased in ice sure, but not even close to absolute zero. Woulda shattered with a touch. He actually stayed frozen long enough for Cold to relocate him and allow him to thaw. Got frozen twice actually.
Flash stays warm by vibrating his body. If he didnt, hed get cold. Hes not immune to it. Hes felt the chill before.
Yep. A mutant who can read others thoughts and know what they are planning. A mutant who also has a familiarity with the other because of being in control of their body for some time. And Emma does have the ability to nullify most temperature attacks as well. Youre saying Flash's powers nullify any temperature attack? Hes been burned, hes felt the chill of cold beofore. His powers CAN nullify temperature attacks. Just like Emmas can nullify temperature attacks.
If Iceman freezes the blood in Flashs body, or drains it from him, its no guarentee Flash can instantly run away to avoid it. Tell me, how can Flash percieve a flas-freeze coming? If Iceman is shattered and nothing but a conciousness floating around, he may very well use all the moisture in Flash body directly. It seems to me that youre implying that Cold or anyone else has never froze Flash for longer than 2 panels.
It tells me that it isnt likely Flash will be running at lightspeed at the start of this fight.
As i stated above somewhere, can you show where Flash went lightspeed and didnt start to get drawn in by the speedforce? I guess i may be outdated. A scan or 2 would help.
I guess Flash is gonna be doing victory laps around the globe after starting the fight going 99% the speed of light.
Nice scans. Especially considering Flash was getting borrowed speed from the fastest beings on the planest as well as speed from Krakkl and the entire planet?
something everyone seems to be forgetting: flash's reaction times aren't lightspeed at default--he has to tap into the speedforce. that is to say, his human brain must make the decision to tap into the speedforce.
in KMC rules, each combatant starts the fight mostly unawares, with only a basic knowledge of the opponent.
so flash may make the human-speed decision to go speedforce, but iceman can make the equally human-speed decision to become part of every water molecule on earth (hey, if we're going by top-end here...)
from there it's a mostly uphill battle for ole bobby drake...i'm just saying it's not as cut-and-dry as "flash is faster".
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Jul 27th, 2006 09:43 PM
EFIL4ZAGGIN
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.Oblivion by the way is to Death as Infinity is to Eternity.
Flash doesnt have to go lightspeed just for everyone else around him to appear to be frozen. When he outran Death to the end of time, i dont think he was going light speed. He was merely time traveling. You dont have to be going lightspeed to time travel.
