It looked like Mace got rather old in the span of 13 years, there's deep lines where there weren't before.
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I understand what you're saying Escape but at the end, Luke Skywalker is the most powerful force user the galaxy has ever seen, according to GL of course if you use logical deduction and his statement, so you'd have to take his power inconsistencies as author inconsistencies. For instance, DE Sidious, no matter how powerful he gets, won't be able to take a full potential Anakin or Full Potential Luke because that would contradict what George Lucas said.
At their full potential? Hell no. They'd be twice as strong as he is. But there's no indication that Luke has reached it. The point is, by DN or whatever, I don't think he is a mile ahead of Sidious. They're probably rivals in power.
Potential hardly means everything, I'm actually of the belief that Sidious' power has much much more to do with his knowledge of the force and time spent mastering it than simply his potential.
Maybe by NJO, but by the end of the Vong War he's displayed feats and mastery of the force that not even Sidious has displayed. I'm pretty sure GL says somewhere that he reached his potential by DN or even LOTF and was declining, which could have been a logical reason for the supposed author inconsistencies. Then again, how the most powerful force user ever could decline so quickly, I have no idea.
If it continues, Bane may just become more powerful. I mean, what people seem to forget is that he was only 26 by BotS, and had only about 2 years experience studying the darkside.
Not even close Nebaris. George Lucas already stated that Anakin and Luke>everybody else. You have DE Sidious in second place. You might think potential means nothing, but potential is everything in the star wars universe. For instance, Obiwan would never ever be as powerful as Sidious, or Yoda would never be as powerful as DE Sidious. The only exception to that rule seems to be Jacen Solo, whose power increased exponentially during his 5 year hiatus. Then again he might have reached his potential very fast with those 5 years, or his potential might be that of Anakin and Luke, which I would highly doubt considering the fact that he's the grandson of Anakin, and not a direct lineage.
Well while I disagree, I can see that you're dead set on Luke being born with more potential, so I won't argue that, but at least consider that Bane's strength in the darkside would have been increased to a degree after gaining the orbalisk armour (they pump dark side energies into his body), and the fact that he's a darksider also puts him at an advantage.
It's not what I'm dead set on, it's what is fact. Who cares what Bane's strength in the darkside was? For all you know he reached his potential at 26. Hell Exar Kun was powerful at a young age, but does that mean he would have surpasses the Skywalkers? Luke was untrained and hardly better than an average Jedi at a young age but does that mean his force abilities sucked? You can't quantify Bane's potential, but we know Bane wasn't even the most powerful of his order, so him being anything other than #2 in his order is purely speculation.
Being a darkside doesn't necessarily make you better. While you do unleash your full potential without limits, you also become cocky and arrogant(see Anakin during fight with Obiwan), so it goes bot h ways Nebaris.
It's never been confirmed that Luke has the higest potential.
I do.
After just 2-3 years experience studying the darkside, half of that based on flawed teachings? No way, he was only really just coming into true sith teachings by the end of BotS.
I actually view Exar like I do Bane, maybe slightly lesser, so if he never died, it's possible.
Luke wasn't properly trained.
Yes we can. He was able to pull a moon out of orbit, by the age of 27, after less than 3 years experience studying the darkside, with half of that time based on flawed teachings.
Let's compare him to RotS Palpatine, who he was quite clearly better than by Bots. Palpatine had much more training (decades, in comparison to two), based on better teachings (all the holocrons from Bane's order), and he was much older (more than double his age actually), so we can speculate that Bane's potential is quite far above Palpatine's, just like Luke's.
'When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the sith'
You are referring to this, correct?
If so, then there are two major flaws.
1. 'The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious.' - you assume that the 'these' refers to the entire order of sith lords that was set down by Darth Bane, when it can just as easily be interpreted that the 'these' refers to the then current two sith lords. So basically, the argument is inconclusive, and can't be used.
2. Power is ambiguous, you can't deny this. Now when the passage states that Sidious is the most powerful, it also lists his weapons (some would define 'weapon' as 'tool of power', so to speak) as not only strength in the darkside, knowledge of the darkside, and an enormous wealth of artifacts and equipment, but also political knowledge and skills in manipulation; intellect related attributes, so in this context, power is clearly not purely related to combat prowess, but intellect as well.
Yet it's been confirmed that Anakin has the highest potential, and that Luke was going to become what his father couldn't. Logical deduction states that Luke=Anakin.
You have no idea of Bane's potential. Notice how Yoda was in his prime 20 years before his death, while Anakin at 22 had easily become one of the most(if not the most) powerful jedi in the galaxy. It has EVERYTHING to do with potential.
Ok that's your opinion.
So? Yet I make my point clear about potential, when you take into account that Luke more than held his own against Vader in ESB, took him down in ROTJ, destroyed the death star in ANH, did simultaneous force chokes in ROTJ, all with little to no training.
You've been proven wrong on this account so many times, it's not even worth a rebuttal.
TPM Sidious is confirmed to be the most powerful in Bane's order. So Bane is already #2 at best. No we CANNOT speculate Bane's potential to be even near Sidious' or Luke's. That's ridiculous and illogical beyond belief. In fact what we CAN do is speculate that Sidious had the most force potential than anybody in the star wars universe other than Anakin/Luke. Even by DE(which makes Sidious superior to all other sith lords by miles), we don't know if he hit his potential.
That statement is OBVIOUSLY referring to Bane's lineage at the VERY LEAST. It CLEARLY states that he is the most powerful of Bane's order, but you enjoy arguing against facts.
No, power is NOT ambiguous, ESPECIALLY not Sidious', who demonstrated more raw power than any other star wars character, other than Luke. Power is pretty self explanatory and obvious, especially in that statement. Sidious WAS the darkside, and this is not an exaggeration. I'd like to think Sidious was to the darkside what Luke was to the lightside. They are avatar's of their respective sides.
You misinterpreted the statement, nowhere in the Rolling Stones interview (you are clearly referring to it) does it say that Luke = Anakin in respect to potential, how about posting the link so I can provide an explanation.
Yes we do, refer to my explanation at the end of my last post.
No proof for this.
I don't really get why you're saying this in response to what I said, it doesn't seem like you're making sense.
I never denied the advantages of having a high potential, I really don't see why you keep on giving me lectures on potential when it's not relevant to my point, and I never asked for it.
Refer to my 'Bane = uber' thread, in my sig.
You seem to have posted this while ignoring what I posted, try and read it again, you might get some answers.
It's up to interpretation, actually.
Again, You seem to have posted this while ignoring what I posted, try and read it again, you might get some answers.
Actually, if you logical deduce from that statement made here (for reference, Sexyback), all it means is something that isn't inclusive of Luke equaling Anakin's potential by any means.
"He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe." (George Lucas, Rolling Stone)
Now, it states that "the son could become that". If we take a look at what "that" actually is, it's merely someone more powerful than Darth Sidious. Lucas says that Obi-Wan ended the chance for Anakin to become more powerful than the Emporer when he lay waste to Anakin's remaining limbs, and left him burnt to near death.
So, since Darth Vader couldn't overthrow the Emporer, Luke could, so long as he doesn't end up like Anakin on Mustafar (which he didn't).
Alternatively, you could perhaps also say that it means Luke could be the most powerful Force user ever ("the son could become that"), but not necessarily rivaling Anakin's own potential. That's stretching it by far, though, in my opinion.
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Jan 2nd, 2007 11:26 PM
