That had nothing to do with the personal level of power of the order, but everything to do with the ideas that Bane held of how flawed the legion system of force users was. This is the same Bane that says "if everyone is equal, nobody can be strong," you realise, yes? Don't confuse Bane's strong ideas about how the Sith should be ruled by one strong leader with how powerful the order, as a martial force, actually was.
Right, and 'weak' is a relative term. Bane only had himself, and his perception of how powerful Darth Revan was, to compare with. His standards were ridiculously high, not to mention, what he was saying was mostly based on how he viewed the Sith's ideals and such, not their actual personal level of power.
Well, now you're just being ridiculous. The BoD is probably the most unexplored order of force users that's been featured in SW canon. We don't really know much about the Order at all, or the force users within that order. Trying to compare the two like you're doing is as silly as it gets.
It actually had EVERYTHING to do with the level of power. It's not as much of a problem of the dark side stretched thin because the ancient sith lords did it. However, the ancient sith were powerful enough to stretch it while the BOD was absolutely pathetic. There is NO proof whatsoever that the BOD was anything above average, if even that. Sorry Noobaris
Ah, weak is a relative term. Except for when we create certain hierarchies on this forum. Try again.
Except we know that nobody from them ever showed anything. Aside from Zannah, Bane, Kas'im and Hoth, nobody else was worth a damn.
I, Jedi. The Unifying Force, Dark Empire audiobok.
Small key detail: It says Zannah SAW him fighting.
Got that? 'Saw?' She looked and SAW Bane fighting.
Saw.
Light passed through her pupils and lenses and presented an image to her brain.
How about you read the fight scene again? Because at no point in the fight was Bane moving faster than all of them could see.
Wanna prove me wrong? Do so
Foolishness.
Bane sees Kas'im's 'feral grin' and realizes exactly why Kas'im hadn't taught anyone Jar'kai: It's his best form. He proceeds to totally outmatch Bane with it. You don't disdain to teach your students the form you're inferior with to insure the advantage.
Kas'im was best with Jar'Kai, at worst, equal to his abilities with a DBL. Bane forced Kas'im back, thinking he knew him too well. Kas'im proceeds to prove him wrong.
Bane did not win the saber fight. You might as well say Obi-wan beat Maul when he sliced his DBL in half
Problem: he did not defeat Kas'im in a technical duel. He used trickery and the force.
And Kas'im is above Luke in 'technique?' Luke, who proved himself skilled enough to compete with Palpatine, who is stated to know every form and style, when the playing field was even and managed to use Jar'Kai with the technique of a master, and wield his saber with enough technique to defeat a veteran lightwhip user?
Righto. Prove it.
The orbalisks are dark side creatures that bring power. They change Bane in ways he never believed possible.
QED
Same Luke who killed a sentient being with his lightning instantly and was easily capable of using it on Kiliks? When is Bane shown to use it to such degrees? Oh, right, his suddenly proficient use in the library after learning it?
The orbalisks die when hit by lightning. FACT. Luke is a master of a lightning tecnique. FACT.
Whose logic? Yours? Answered above. And you're still wrong.
And considering Luke is the more powerful force user...hm.
Which is why it's stated his fighting style is to attack viciously and wildly with no regard for personal safety and is pressed back big time on the defensive.
Without the Orbalisks, Bane would never have stood to Raskta and Farfalla
Needless hyperbole.
Luke moves so fast he absolutely vanishes from sight and clears every side of the room and back again without becoming visible and is only distinguishable by the aura of intense Dark Side power
considering they all qualify as quality, I've both
I think you mean 'direct' it. The BoD were in control of what they were doing. At no point is Bane showing anything but redirecting a unified effort.
Nor does Bane ever do this again. Nor are anyone there but Qordis, Kopecz and Kaan worth anything resembling a damn.
Nice try, but you're distorting truth again
You mean the energy they willingly gave? In a large Sith ritual? the kind of thing that takes intense preparation and can't be done at the drop of a hat?
Show me some INDIVIDUAL feats without fancy rituals and we'll talk
And since when can Bane absorb lightning with his flesh covered? One dead orbalisk and Bane can no longer fight
The freely given energy in time of ritual, right?
Just making sure
So Luke wins? Thankee
'what he was supposed to be'. IE, confirmed as the most powerful Force User ever.
And more powerful than Palpatine is more powerful than Bane. Remind me who the most powerful Sith in 'over a thousand years,' 'of all time'....Never mind Palpatine, a remarkably powerful force lightning practitioner, would hand Ro2 Bane his rear end.
And if you're going to whine how it doesn't mean 'Dark Side' power, do me a favor and shut the **** up.
It's inexcusable. Apologize now or I will kill you.
I didn't say that. I was saying that fagg0t crusader had yet to show me how canon points to what he was saying.
That's great, however the statement has always either been ambiguous (DSSB for instance, as has already been explained), or coming from an infallible source (NEC, Heritage of the Sith, Ancients in EE, Vader in Death Star, to name a few (first two sources being in-universe))
Sure I won't, but that doesn't really mean sh1t, considering the fact that Sidious is one of the most heavily explored Sith in the entire mythos. The fact that it's not said about any other Sith means nothing.
Prove that they relied on them. A no name Ancient from the Golden Age of the Sith (who was definitely not as powerful as Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh (given that Ragnos was stated as being the most powerful at the time of his reign, and Sadow and Kressh are directly stated as being the next two powerful), and likely Simus) was able to wipe out the life of an entire planet with one force attack. Their technology was only ever stated to help them focus their force power. They still all possessed the power required for the feats they achieved. Not to mention, the technological augmentations are still a part of their regular
Firstly, Bane and the BoD's storm was of a far larger scale than Palpatine's force storms were ever shown to be, and secondly, the force storms, as support for Palpatine's power, are completely worthless.
1. There's no proof that Sidious can even use them in a close ranged manner without destroying himself in the process. He did, after all, canonically not possess perfect control over them, and he's never shown the level of control required.
2. It's a ritual that requires minimal amounts of force energy, which when focused onto a particular area in one's body, activates a portal of incredible power: a wormhole. It speaks nothing for actual sheer force strength.
3. The ability is canonically stated to grant its user limited control over it. It speaks nothing for Sidious' control either.
So, to recap, they're useless in these scenarios, and aren't testament to Sidious' force ability.
I warned you. Kadesh is approaching you as we speak.
No one's saying that the level of conflict would have a direct effect on a being's strength in the force, Gideon, but the fact remains that conflict separates the weak from the strong, and the people who survive from near constant warfare (which is what the era entailed) are generally the strong ones of the bunch. The BoD, while not possessing large numbers of force users, would logically possess above average ones, and again, the sheer scale: hundreds of force users, speaks a great deal alone.
Hardly. UnuThul, at one time, was able to mind control Luke along with another Jedi, at the same time, and was able to force push him with such force that it would have broken Luke's skull if not for the helmet he had been wearing at the time.
Also, we have no idea exactly how powerful the colony was as a whole, and exactly how it was augmenting Raynar's power.
In force ability, it's very close imo, but yes, I would put Luke slightly above him. But, that doesn't mean that Bane can't defeat him in a saber battle, or overwhelm him in close combat in an all out fight. Not to mention that Bane's displayed an intelligence far beyond that of Luke, and it's not impossible to think that Bane might be able to use his surroundings against Luke, or know the best way to fight him.
There is absolutely zero logic to that statement Noobaris, try again.
Your opinion is irrelevant when it contradicts facts. You've never won a single debate and you've been pwned in every debate, yet you persist. DE Sidious and Luke would be close in force abilities. Bane and Luke would NOT. Bane's intelligence is not near Luke's level, so quit fellating him homo.
In other words: you've gone back to your lying ways. I really expected better. Those source say no such thing.
Strawman.
I addressed what you mentioned about Zannah in the following block of text. You're replying to what was addressing your assertion that a being able to compete with another force user in a lightsaber battle requires being able to see them. Own up to making a silly claim.
The fact that it was never elaborated on doesn't mean it couldn't have been happening.
BoP is on you. You made the claim that Bane couldn't move faster than the eyes of force users could see in the "fight of his life." Prove up.
No. It was so that he would have a form that his apprentices had no clue how to deal with.
No more than Bane had been outmatching Kas'im just before. The only difference being that Kas'im possessed an unfair advantage in the second part of their fight.
That's not what I was even implying. It's the fact that he hid the form from his students that would make it logical that it wasn't his best form, simply because the majority of his training was spent with the apprentices. The form may have possibly been his most favoured one, but sadly, it was also his least practised one.
Wishful thinking at best. Not to mention the fact that even if Jar'Kai was his better form, it doesn't change the fact that not choosing to use it doesn't mean that he was feigning weakness. Kas'im's plan was to end the battle in the first pass with his double bladed lightsaber. He was not holding back in any sense of the term.
and that's part of what makes Kas'im so badass.
He as good as did. He completely dominated the majority of the battle, toyed with Kas'im, and Kas'im even acknowledges that he had been in the position to kill him, and that he should have "when he had the chance."
Difference being that Obi-Wan hadn't been dominating Maul for the entire fight, but only for a small portion of the battle where he had been in a skill augmented rage.
I'm referring to the first battle. Bane was able to completely overwhelm him in saber combat.
Yes, The guy who mastered every single form for every orthodox form of lightsaber, and spent years perfecting the moves and sequences of is above Luke in 'technique'.
ROFL. Too bad for you that you have no idea exactly what ratio of technique, physical attributes and force ability Luke possessed when competing with him (not even mentioning that he was having his ass augmented via battle meditation at the time). Attributing that entirely to technique is beyond ridiculous.
I'd really love to here where exactly (page number) that's said. Certainly not in anything I've read.
1. Refer directly to the above.
2. You have to be a bit more than just a Master of Jar'Kai to be approaching Kas'im's level of technical ability.
ROFL. Too bad for you that you have no idea exactly what ratio of technique, physical attributes and force ability Luke possessed when defeating a veteran lightwhip user. Attributing that entirely to technique is beyond ridiculous. I also fail to see how the very [at the time] barely trained Lumiya was anything special in combat.
A gun would bring a low time thug 'power'. Would you ever directly refer to it as such without speaking metaphorically...? Which Drew certainly wasn't.
And his newfound power, which is elaborated on greatly, did the exact same by making him more powerful than he ever believed he could become.
Please tell me how the people he's overpowering here are in any way anything worth jumping up and down and up and down about? That's right, you can't because nothing suggests that these non combat orientated beings didn't suck donkey dick. And the Vong had no defence, so the other feat is worthless as well.
There's that, plus the Storm ritual, plus numerous times in R02. It's clearly one of his primary powers. Luke, on the other hand, uses it a couple of times, and only ever overpowers nobodies with it. Nothing points to his refinement of the technique being on the same level as Bane's.
Bane can use his lightsaber to block lightning. FACT.
Which you've still not supported in any way.
Hyperbole. If he had absolutely no regard for personal safety, then it's logical that the Jedi would have gone for his unprotected head once in a while rather than his protected body, which they were certainly capable of landing hits on. Again: Bane, one the smartest Sith lords there's ever been, would have to be an absolute idiot not to protect his one truly vulnerable body part.
Or perhaps he would have defended himself properly given the real need to.
Because you say so? No. Such a statement is not subject to hyperbolic description. It's a statement made with the clear intent of pointing out that their eyes didn't register to the speed behind his attack.
Right, coming from the audiobook, yes? Which I've read by the way (*waits for someone to point out that you can't actually read an audio-book*), and as it turns out, it would appear that my original assumptions - that you thought you could use as obscure a source as they come to spread as many falsehoods as you wanted - were in fact true. The audiobook doesn't give you any more real information than the comic already does. None of what you've been mentioning, has actually been true.
To a small degree, yes, but really, only one thing you mentioned even approaches what Bane does: the way in which Luke wedges himself in the heart of the force. That's it. The reast is on a firmly lower level. Absorbing as much energy as Bane managed to absorb indicates that his level of force strength was absolutely titanic, and definitely on Luke's level.
ROFL! You attempt to correct something I've said, and then use the exact word in the very same context two sentences later. That's hilarious.
And no, it's "redirect," given Bane was absorbing it first and then directing it.
And again: the fact that it was a unified effort is irrelevant, as Bane still had to absorb, contain, and direct the energy.
He never has the need to do it again, nor does he ever really have access to such a high number of friendly force users.
Your unsupported opinion, which is irrelevant anyway given the power was still described as being able to "consume anything and everything in its path" and described to have eventually destroyed the whole of Ruusan if the ritual remained active. Even if what you say is the case, the combined energy that Bane was absorbing was still clearly on an insane level.
No, that would be you, in virtually every single one of your posts.
Which is irrelevant. As willing as they were, they can't just make their lightning *not* lethal. They can't just direct it at a being and have it be harmless. Bane still had to absorb the lethal energy, and he does it effortlessly.
Irrelevant misdirection. Doesn't say anything bad about the mastery and strength that Bane displays during the ritual.
Irrelevant misdirection. Doesn't say anything bad about the mastery and strength that Bane displays during the ritual.
I'll show you what I want, and list his best feat, which speaks for a level of force ability on par with Luke's.
Didn't say he would be able to, or that he could replicate the feat in the exact same way. The point I was making was that the abilities he displays are testament to great ability in the force, which is transferable through all of his abilities.
Irrelevant misdirection. Doesn't say anything bad about the mastery and strength that Bane displays during the ritual.
Ha.
No.
In the context, he was supposed to surpass Sidious, and that was all, as Advent pointed out to you numerous times.
I've proven how flawed those quotes are countless times. I feel no real obligation to do the same again.
Sure thing. I'll pretend that power as a word is completely unambiguous and that in-universe sources are infallible, like you and everyone here does. We cool now?
They do, actually. And I know since I've read them
The Jedi see Bane. Zannah sees Bane.
When he's fighting/
What more needs to be said?
So you've fallen on burden of negative proof?
Sure: Zannah physically sees him move and his actions are well described in the fight.
How is he moving in blurs now?
Right. And it must have been the form he was worst with.
This makes no sense
Right. That's like saying Bane possessed an unfair advantage in the first since he used his size and strength to his advantage.
Really, now, Kas'im led him back completely
Wait, what? When did Kas'im train WITH them? Not a one of them is his equal whatsoever and Kas'im had a large room to practice by himself in if you haven't forgotten.
Even heard of 'optimum capacity?' he had no chance to switch to it when the battle started.
He displays no sign of the exhaustion he apparently shows when Bane was forcing him back, too
that's said mockingly as Kas'im is grinning.
Bane being a fool squandered his advantage.
So, you know who long the first portion of Bane v. Kas'im lasted in relation to the second where Bane got owned?
Until Kas'im did something new and owned him completely
Kas'im>Bane in sabers. Get over it. Ironically, is Raskta fought Zannah and Sarro fought Bane, the Sith'd be slaughtered
Oh, right. As opposed to the man who was able to master the saber so completely he was able to wield it with 'perfect, speed, precision and power?'
Dark Empire audio book states Leia is removing the darkness 'around' the opponents and is not affecting their battle directly, sorry.
So...Luke is able to compete at that speed with the emperor, moving 'faster than any eye can detect' and you scorn it?
Unsurprising
I really love it how you default on this whenever you're outmatched
How about a master of single and Jar'Kai? With an added bonus of knowing how to fight lightwhips and DBLs, too
Actually, I do. Considering Luke, using a human hand with a 'bit' of force augmentation can crush a rock to powder, is in his LOTF incarnation
And barely trained Lumiya? Same woman who was one of three people to exterminate the Prophets of the Dark Side single handedly, kill a fully trained Jedi Knight and was personally trained in combat by Vader?
When was she 'barely trained?' Please...she's at least as good as Githany. If not better
I'm sure it would. And you've spoken to Drew now to gauge his meaning?
Right. The orbalisks. Changed him in ways he couldn't even imagine
Vong aren't normally even affected by the Force. Plus one for Luke.
Oh, and besides himself, who has Bane pwned with the lightning?
The storm ritual is using direct force lightning?
And Bane uses the lightning a grand total of....twice, then.
Three times counting the ritual.
Wow. I'm so impressed. Especially considering it's not like Luke's had over four times the time Bane's had to study it...
Which is why Bane is left squealing in agony as the orbalisks pop inside of him.
FACT
Besides quotes referring to Luke as the most powerful ever, his demonstrations of ability-unaugmented by an entire other order of Sith unlike some bald Sith
Yeah, because in between having to defend themselves, not knowing what the orbalisks are and having to go for a taller opponent's head-when did any display the same athleticism Luke did?
The book outright states Bane fights with no regard for defense. Find something to prove it wrong or shut up
Like when his own lightning is blasted at him.
Goodie. A bunch of apprentices!
Now, more powerful force users clearly see him
I'm afraid you're a liar. Hell, it's even nice and sourced on Wookieepedia, and made mention of by several users there and at TFN.
Or is it all one big conspiracy?
Right. defeating an army and ripping out the engines of a star destroyer are nothing. Nothing, no siree!
And Luke is able to absorb multiple blasts from an AT At...that aren't given to him by a bunch of insignificant weaklings.
Try again. Try harder
Considering Bane was 'directing it' and I said twice he was, what was your point?
You mean the freely given energy in a ritual that cannot be replicated under normal circumstances? Just checking
The freely given energy. Where does it say it was all 'absorbed' now? Just that Bane directed it and was in a world of heat and fire
Irrelevant.
It is never done again. Suddenly, Bane's NOT so intelligent after all. ...he could have won Ruusan for them
Considering it took AAAAAALL the Brotherhood plus Bane to create a Force storm...and Palpatine can do it on his own..
Tsk tsk tsk
In Rule of 2? When, now?
And you can make your lightning not-lethal. Palpatine did it in ROTJ well enough. And Dark Empire
To create a force storm with all of the BoD, right? what Palp did on his own?
See above
show me his best feat.
Alone;
Or I'll show you Luke's uniting with Leia and baby Ani and the entire Force and channeling the entire lightside of bind Palpatine from his power, causing the force storm to redirect
sure. Whatever
Broken record syndrome.
Hah. Yes
Is Advent infallible? Is she a close personal interpreter of GL? If not, why are you bothering me with her opinion? At no point in that interview does GL clarify it in that way
translation: I can't
Why, Nebaris, it IS you!
I assume the bane hammer shall be dropped in short order
How about you leave and come back when we're ready to accept you again?
This is where you're absolutely wrong, Nebaris (but that's nothing new, eh?). It's whatever I say. And I -- your esteemed lord, master, and God -- say that you've yet to prove a damn thing. You work on improving your logic, and I give you my solemn vow that I will use my "phenomenal, cosmic powers!!1!" to remove Bane's cock from your mouth and PoD/RoT from your ass.
You will be able to swallow and walk again in no time.
Please. Bane's orbalisk layered penis is far too large for any human's mouth to contain. But really, is that the best you can come up with after getting curbstomped in... what is it now, our last ten consecutive debates? Get back to me when you lose that old age sense of wit and can actually manage to intellectually keep up with the Nebmeister. Until then, quit the bitching.
And yes, that's right, I'm talking to you Blaxican, what now?!
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
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Read jedi vs sith moron. It says your wrong mr nebaris.
O rly? Remember the weakling who was sent to ruusan? Oh right that weakling was stated to be "among the strongest" in the order according to kasim and kopecz. Again, read jedi vs sith.
You're blatantly only pretending to have read JvS, just like you pretend to watch Heroes. The comic shows or states no such thing.
"Weak" is a relative term. Bane labels him weak, but then again can only form comparisons between himself and the apprentices and Masters that he had met in the Academy. This says nothing about the personal level of power of the Order as a whole. It would be like Yoda labelling one of the low level Jedi Masters "weak." Being a Master, he would be "among" the strongest, yet by your logic, that would somehow detract from the level of power of the order as a whole. It doesn't. "Weak," as I said, is a relative term, and being weak in relation to a particular collective group within the order says nothing about the Order as a whole in comparison to other's.
Lol. You refer to PoD, and then say this. Are you high Kadesh?
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
Account Restricted
The thing is i HAVE read JVS, obviously nobody gives a shit about your opinions or your claims. Oh and i HAVE watched heroes, sylar losing his powers? season 2? 5 years gone?
Your wrong, the narrator stated he is weak,not only bane, and that weakling according to kasim is "the strongest of the order sent to worlds like ruusan"
Have a happy banning sick child.
Lol. You refer to PoD, and then say this. Are you high Kadesh? [/B][/QUOTE]
Jan 7th, 2008 05:07 PM
Always.
