You're forgetting about the times Superman needed aid/enchantments against other magical users meaning on his own he had no chance and only focusing on the fact he's a hero and will overcome the villain sooner or later.
Loki also went toe to toe with Surtur for a time. If you take both characters at their high ends Loki wins it due to the amount of options of he and the fact Superman's weakness against magic let alone someone with Loki's abilities to exploit them.
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i'm not forgetting in the least. he does have some poor showings against magic. he also has some good showings. his weakness is overrated and has been slowly been made to be less than it was in the past.
he flew around with a bunch of illusions and bought time for thor and odin. hardly toe-to-toe since he had zero chance to do anything at all to surtur.
if you take both at high end, supes weakness is nowhere near as big an issue as it has been made out to be. high end works AGAINST loki who has no victories over anyone like superman. how exactly is loki going to exploit them? what's he going to do to ko someone with superman's durability before he gets blitzed and ko'd? physical confrontation is NOT loki's strong suite.
It actually depends on the writer and like anything else power levels vary as well. Supes needed aid against Atlas to overcome him. He also needed aid to overcome Arion who was weakened to boot.
He stood toe to toe with someone far more powerful than him. Supes went down far quicker against someone like Henshaw with a few blows to the dome. Prime's also shown Superman is nothing when they come to blows and someone he can easily shrug off at any point in time.
Superman's been ko'd by physical force before. Taking on BrB, etc. is taking on someone far more powerful than Superman with aid and easily waxing them. Loki doesn't have to go about this purely physically and with his trickery and magical powers he can get the win over Superman.
Points to Atlas and Arion again. He doesn't have man of magic in this thread does he?
If Loki fought Clark smartly, Clark isn't touching him. Loki goes intangible, makes multiple copies of himself, and rapes Superman with hails of mystic bolts. If he knows about Clark's weakness, he'll teleport Superman into a red sun. Of course Superman can win but only if Loki fights like an idiot in physical form once Superman throws the first punch and blitz him for the K.O.
The thing with Loki is, he doesn't usually get involved in fights. Most of his fight is with Thor, and inevitably he will lose. But Clark doesn't have the same power set as Thor.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
well of course it depends on the writer. you said using high end feats. but using high end feats superman wins. he was granted a shield by PS against arion, but arion is enormously powerful--even in the state superman fought him. he needed no help against etrigan, or blaze however, and he's battled to many gods (CM, BA, WW, heracles, baal, etc . . .) to name. again the 'loki wins because he has magic' is a tired argument and ignores kal's strong feats against magic.
not sure why you're going on about physical force ko'ing superman. not sure if you said bill is far more powerful than superman, but that is blatantly wrong though i know better than to try and convince you differently. his 'trickery' is also overrated and does not translate into this type of fight where they are in a ring with nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. loki can win some, but kal for the majority.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
no way.
supes could dodge the bolts all day and go intangible himself and take out the dupes. that would also leave loki exhausted, like it did in the surtur battle so i wouldn't think he'd be doing that anyway. superman's senses and ability to see through illusions are extremely well documented as well. loki's intangibility is also astral travel--never saw him fire bolts in that form and to go astral would be to leave his physical body at kal's mercy.
but he wouldn't know though he could bfr him though again loki has no history of winning battles that way.
nah. if loki fights in character he'd lose most of the time. again, i said he COULD win, just not a majority nor is it a stomp like so many seem to automatically think.
thor rarely (if ever) uses anything exotic against loki aside from smacking him around when they battle physically. superman possesses THAT powerset in spades. kal would make loki appear to be standing still as well--something thor cannot bring to a physical battle.
Since Loki would have basic knowledge of Superman as per forum rules, he would have no reason to engage in physical battle with him. And people are forgetting when Loki does decide to fight a physical battle (and with Thor no less), it's not like he gets one-shotted instantly. He's taken Thor's punches to the head and has only been dazed. Hell, he's taken Mjolnir being thrown at the back of his dome and has only been dazed. He's been knocked around by the Destroyer as well. Anyone who can take that kind of punishment isn't going to get OMGWTF beat down by Superman.
And whether we like it or not, Superman's been shown to be either weak against magic or not invulnerable to it FAR more often than he's shown to be resistant to it. Can Loki one shot him with magic? Unless he pulls his "Bor-into-snow", no. But saying that Superman can tank everything Loki can do to him is wrong. Think about it. If Thor didn't have Mjolnir with him at times or was not already highly resistant to magic, Loki would have beat him plenty of times before. Even with Mjolnir, Thor has had trouble with Loki. And if someone who is basically catered to fighting magical threats has trouble with Loki, how in the hell is someone who is constantly shown to have problems or be at disadvantage with magic going to steamroll him?
How does someone who can one-shot a skyfather being (note that Loki attacked before Bor could summon his godly defenses, defenses that Superman wouldn't even have to begin with) and cast spells which can fool Odin beat someone like Superman? The question answers itself.
I didn't say he wins because he brings magic to the table I said it's how he uses magic and what he can bring to the table he wins.
Uhm, regardless of Arion's condition the point is Superman has no business even facing him without aid making him a legitimate example of someone he can't even hope to face without some of kind of aid.
WW, Ba, and Marvel are characters who don't have Loki's options and who tend to physically slug it out. We've seen Marvel portrayed as an equal and even ko him rather easily before through cheapshots(yes, I know) but magic was cited as the reason behind it. Supes also doesn't or hasn't beaten BA. These aren't examples of someone who would bring Loki's style to the thread here making them irrelevant examples imo.
Your argument entirely ignores what Loki's powers are and his highest feats while instead saying Superman wins based off his fights against beings with magical powers but not the same options a Loki type character brings to the table.
Leo, Superman also rarely uses his exotic powers in battle either so you citing Thor doesn't holds the same for Superman. Thor's more powerful and has options available to him Superman doesn't have. Thor isn't also weak to magic.
Superman is far better equipped to deal with Loki's weaknesses than vice versa. Superman is slightly vulnerable to magic. Loki, while not getting destroyed by physical blows, still gets consistently dazed, which is all Kal needs to get a win.
Loki has options to make sure Superman won't ever touch him. Again, you saying slightly depends greatly on the writer at hand. It's still an advantage for Loki.
On this, you do have to consider that those Frost Giants were being amped by Loki's manipulation of Iceman. It seems you're underrating his weakness to magic. Especially the level of magic that Loki possesses.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
don't think they were amped, actually. they were being driven nuts by a desire for MORE cold. that's different from amped by the cold. and it was in loki's castle as well. without prep, he has limited access to sheer magical power and spell casting options. given prep he'd win everytime. in this type of straight up battle, i still say supes for the solid majority.
and i think loki's level has been overrated by many. kal has fought more powerful opponents. he's literally ingested etrigan's magic and contained it, caught the magical axe of one of the mesopotamian gods with his hand without being harmed, etc.
magic does not=insta-loss for kal as many seem to think. at least not on the level loki has exhibited it.
Did you notice that they were also growing in size? And literally stated they were growing more powerful? And since Iceman was in Loki's castle, the source of cold was only greater there. Loki's lack of prep doesn't detract from his skill/power in magic. This scan is before Iceman was overloading Loki's apparatus:
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I don't remember Superman ingesting Etrigan's magic. Scans? Superman can catch Loki's flaming sword all he wants... and have his hand cut and burned.
Magic doesn't equal insta-loss. But you don't seem to be aware of the level of magic that Loki possesses. Which is surprising. I know Kris Blaze was working on a Loki Respect Thread. But if the ridiculous perma-ban is going to be enforced, than it looks like I'll have to put my Guy Gardner and Hulk Respect Threads on hold to pick up the slack.
It will take Loki less than a day to locate and manipulate Luthor into giving him the location of Kryptonite. Then infiltrate the Daily Planet as a cute intern and wreck havok on Clark.
KMC Community Forums
Feb 7th, 2010 04:51 PM
