Is the TO virus standard equipment for Apocalypse? This is the first time I've heard a discussion about him so focused on that thing. Also, how exactly would he infect Ultron with it? Their technopathy is banned, for one thing. Ultron's shell is either adamantium or has it's own strain of the virus to infect Apoc.
I dunno. Also, the Apoc-crew aren't really using their heads in this regards. With CIS off, can't Apoc just shrink to microscopic size, get into Ultron's big mouth and then destroy him from the inside?
The insistence of a TO-based attack is silly, tho.
I've never seen Apoc shirnk to subatomic size, but theoretically Ultron can change its shape and form not to have any holes that can be exploited. He just never does because he loves it own big mouth.
Because Apocalypse is a mutant and one of his primary powers is complete psionic control over his atomic structure. He doesn't control his infection by technopathy, he controls it via mass manipulation. It's become incorporated into his physical makeup.
Yes, it's part of his being. This was shown on panel several times (Rise of Apocalypse arc, Blood of Apocalypse Arc, etc). Apocalypse was originally a fully organic mutant with powers similar to Martian Manhunter (shape-shifting, density control, sans telepathy). When he encountered the Celestial's ship (as shown in Rise of Apocalypse) it infected him with the variant of the Transmode virus he has. Due to his control over his atomic structure he was able to incorporate the properties of Transmode into his being and became a Techno-organic being (organic and technological, which is why he can also shapeshift into machinery post his infection). He was then able to interface with the ship in his new techno-organic form, and was able to incorporate Celestial tech into his body (his armor, for example, is incorporated into his form via the Transmode and mass manipulation, which is why he can make it appear in any format or disguise and then simply shift back into his armored form). This was also shown again during the Mutant Messiah Arc on two occasions, once when contact with Archangel's techno-organic wings empowered Apocalypse, and again when Apocalypse subsequently was able to interface with his Celestial technology and reinvigorate himself after the assault by Stryfe and Bishop.
Btw, how exactly does Ultron put Apocalypse down? Other than the fact Ultron's shell is made of adamantium (which makes him insanely durable defensively), offensively he doesn't have anything that can harm Apocalypse. Physical assault is pointless due to Apoc's malleability, Apoc can either tank or raise shields against an energy blast assault, and since the OP said nothing about bfr and Apocalypse has teleportation as a power as well, he pretty much controls the terms of battle.
Encephaloray it's an option, Ultron can dish lots of damage to just shield them all, even if you consider it impossible to tax Apoc's physical body, Ultron can strain his mind and focus the physical onslaught on any shields Apoc tries to raise.
I, for one, am arguing the character. People around here tend to argue the meme and public opinion about Apocalypse rather than the actual character, his 616 history, and his abilities. Even the OP has a damn table reference. And while, granted, Apocalypse is more schemer than hands on destroyer due to his premise, in his canon 616 confrontations he has a near flawless record in actual combat despite his overarching scheme being foiled. People intertwine the events of alternate versions of Apocalypse into his mainstream self and present this misconception of him being weak. HOM and AOA are not part of 616 Apocalypse's history. Rise of Apocalypse, Blood of Apocalypse, The Twelve, Dark Riders, Onslaught Saga, X-Factor, and arguably all of Messiah Complex and Messiah War (though that may end up being an alternate future at some point) are.
The likelihood of that working is very low given that:
-Apocalypse, as shown on panel, has extremely high end mental defenses.
-Apocalypse, as shown on panel, has reflexes fast enough to morph his body around incoming energy attacks or to simply go intangible and let them pass through him.
-Apocalypse, as shown on panel, can teleport.
-Apocalypse, as shown on panel, has forcefields and shielding.
So while it's trendy to say Apocalypse loses simply because he's Apocalypse and a table is nearby, it's really not that cut and dry and never has been. Forum fights aren't synonymous with his schemes to make mutantkind stronger. This is a fight, not a Darwinian challenge.
When was it ever mentioned that his control of the TO Virus was based on his molecular control? And when was it ever mentioned that the virus is Celestial-based? Wasn't the virus created by Mr Sinister?
Apoc has demonstrated (or at least -seemed- to have demonstrated, the writers have always been quite vague with how his power works on many occasions) technopathy in the past. It seems doubtful that he can rewrite the purpose of the TO Virus by simply manipulating its molecules, otherwise, Cable (who has high end molecular manipulation himself) would have been able to duplicated what he did.
Also, the TO Virus is STILL technology, even organic technology has been taken over by Ultron in the past, there really is nothing in your argument that shows that THIS strain of the TO Virus is resistant to Ultron's tech takeover whatsoever.
Although, I WILL concede that the OP DID state NO technopathy. Still, he should at least leave Ultron's resistance to it.
PS. I'm NOT arguing for Ultron or Apocalypse. TBH, I'm still strongly undecided. I DO believe that Apoc DOES have the means to get wins here. I simply remain strongly against TO-Virus infection as a means for him to do so.
I dont think that apoc loses the first one because ultron is more powerful. I just dont think that he can harm ultron in the first scenario given the stipulations. It may even be a stalemate in the first scenario.
I'm not arguing that he's weak but barring BFR or a bunch of speculation about the TO virus, no serious suggestion gives Apoc the edge over Ultron. Ultron can keep attacking and has stamina and defense superior to Thor or other very powerful top tiers, his mechanical nature gives him advantage in the long run. It would be a long fight, but Apoc's powers haven't convinced me he can put Ultron down when the likes of Thor can't.
Just got back from the hospital so I wasn't able to reply sooner. I'll cover a couple points then I'm off to eat tacos before they get cold:
The evidence that Apocalypse is able to control the virus via his atomic structure control was actually shown in the convoluted manner in which he contracted the virus. The original story behind his infection (as shown in the early X-Factor Run) was that Mr. Sinister, while working for Apocalypse, developed a strain of the TO virus to use as a weapon against Apocalypse. When Sinister infects him, Apocalypse then adapts to it via his molecular control, commends Sinister on his ingenuity and bravery to try to destroy him, then warns Sinister against any future attempts as he would not be so forgiving in the future. After this incident Apocalypse goes on to infect baby Cable with the virus and Cyclops is forced to send Cable to the future so that the Askani can take care of Cable with their advanced medical technology. Later on down the line, however, another story shows that a time travelling Cable goes back in time and infects Apocalypse with the virus a few millenia before he encounters Essex in Victorian England (which turns out to be the same virus Mr. Sinister, while working for Apocalypse, used as a template for the virus he weaponized and used on Apocalypse), so a pre-destination paradox was formed.
However, in the Rise of Apocalypse storyline (which was written after the previous two incidents took place), it was shown that Apocalypse became infected when he found the Celestials ship and, through his molecular control, adapted to the virus, became techno-organic, and spent centuries interfacing with the ship and learning it's knowledge and secrets. Then later in Blood of Apocalypse it was changed yet again that the Celestials actually made a deal with Apocalypse and granted him access to the ship and technology for a price to be paid at a later date.
So his contraction of the virus was either retconned, or the later writers outright forgot about the earlier storyline where Cable travelled back in time and infected Apocalypse with the same virus in the past that Apocalypse infected Cable with in the future, before Mr. Sinister developed it and infected Apocalypse with it, in that same future, meaning Apocalypse would have already had the virus at the point at which Sinister tried to infect him with it in the first place.
As far as Technopathy, yes, Apocalypse does have that after he became techno-organic. In his new form he was able to interface with technology, and he incorporated Celestial tech into his armor and his being (as, through the virus, he is able to assimilate organic and inorganic material and incorporate into his form).
As far as his molecular control versus the TO virus strain he is infected with, the strain of the virus he has, as I elaborated on before, is different than the Phalanx or Technarchy strain of it. Apocalypse's strain consumes organic matter and transmutes it into metal. When this happened to Apocalypse, since he still has control over his mass, he by extension, gained control over the portion of his mass which was consumed by the virus and made metallic/tecnological, so he was able to control it, incorporate it into his being, and assume metallic and technological forms through the properties of the virus. He basically became a cyborg because prior to that he was wholly organic. The reason Cable was not able to duplicate this feat is because, at the time of his infection, he was an infant. By the time he matured and developed his powers the virus had already consumed about 40%+ of his body (and that was with the best efforts of the Clan Askani trying to heal him).
Whether Ultron could control the virus via technopathy I suppose is up for debate as there's no evidence of it either way. However, it won't help him in this match up (which is why I brought it up in the first place).
Either way, I believe Apocalypse is capable of beating Ultron for a solid majority with the no technopathy stip in place or otherwise.
As far as other options to beat Ultron besides the virus consuming his shell and BFR, there's energy draining, growing really big and kicking him around like a soccer ball, morphing an EMP device and using it on him, etc. Since Apocalypse can change into different weaponry, he has a lot of options, though he'll have to find something that works given Ultron's durability. Ultron's offensive output, however, isn't really a threat.
The virus also assimilates and consumes metal (which is how Apocalypse is able to incorporate technological components into himself and interface with tech so seemlessly, as the augmentations become one with his form). It's like a cancer. It consumes the tissue/substances it is exposed to and assimilates it into it's own form, like cancerous tissue consuming a lung. Ultron would become inert.
*edit
That's sans Technopathy, however. D_Dude has me wondering about whether Ultron would actually be able to interface with this strain. There's not really any evidence for or against, but as he said, it is part technological in nature, so there is a possibilty.
My bad, he did reprogram them. But not because he was technologically superior to them, but merely because of his sheer will and sentinence as the High Evolutionary and Phalanx explained.
He was their master. I never argued against this; what I'm arguing against is that he didn't forcibly take over them.
They somewhat conformed to Ultron and took his appearence.
Where did you get that from? 'Cause Warlock himself said that the Phalanx were a by-product of the Technarch's hunger.
Hell, the Technarchy consider the Phalanx to be abominations.
The Phalanx did, but that was basically the reason they conjoined with Ultron in the first place. The Phalanx were impressed by Ultron's will and sentience, so they conformed to him and allowed him to become their hive-mind. It's on ink and paper. You're speculating whereas the scans I posted clearly say that Ultron's sentience and will surpassed their tech, not Ultron's tech or reprogramming capabilities.
When did I deny this? I clearly said Ultron was the will, the Phalanx was the power. I'm only trying to argue that Ultron did not forcibly take over their minds like you seem to believe.
Come on, it's obvious. You even saw how Ultron was defeated and was saying that he'd never give up.
Yea?
I read it when it came out.
I think you need to understand what the Phalanx is and what they do. Ultorn was benefetting as were the Phalanx. If you know a thing or two about the Phalanx and Technarcs, you'd know that they FEED on lifeglow; much like the Technarcs which unintentionally created them. They were doing that throughout the entire arc. How do you not get that man?
Warlock disagrees with you.
Please do so. Make sure to read the Nova ones too.
Either I'm not being clear or you're not reading.
I'll say it again: Ultron DID become their ruler. He DID take over their collective hive mind. However, he was only able to achieve that because of the Phalanx allowing him to. Ultron was defeated by them, was far outmatched in tech, but the Phalanx saw how superior his sentience was compared to their so they allowed him to become their leader. Read Annihilation: Conquest 5 pl0x.
Hey man. Don't call me a shmoe like that. I was really offended and I I'm gonna go there and cry in a corner.
Anyway, Apocalypse does not have to be on par with Galactus if he can do what he did casually. Ultron can be drained and Apocalypse can drain. What's there not to get?
Then we CLEARLY have different interpretations of the arc. YES, the Phalanx is CLEARLY his technological superior. However, technology is no longer the issue here. Ultron has evolved past technology and has become a sentient, incorporeal technopath (much like Henshaw). He took over because he was the stronger will, he bent the Phalanx to his will in one fell swoop.
Never in the arc was there any indication that the Phalanx allowed him to take them over. Never in the arc was it shown that Ultron only took them over because he somehow got into their main "core" and this made it easier for him to take them over.
It was shown many times (Annihlation, Avengers, etc) that Ultron can jump from tech to tech and forcibly assimilate it.
When was it said that the Technarcy consider the Phalanx an abomination?
Warlock is a pariah from his species. His opinion of the Phalanx is NOT indicative of the race's opinion.
The Phalanx did, but that was basically the reason they conjoined with Ultron in the first place. The Phalanx were impressed by Ultron's will and sentience, so they conformed to him and allowed him to become their hive-mind. It's on ink and paper. You're speculating whereas the scans I posted clearly say that Ultron's sentience and will surpassed their tech, not Ultron's tech or reprogramming capabilities.
Again, we clearly have different opinions on the matter.
The Phalanx was forcibly taken over. The very scan you showed implies this. There was never a time where it was shown that some sort of decision from the Phalanx side allowed Ultron to take over. He just did. And Ultron's personality/characterization supports this.
However, I will admit that the Phalanx were not actively resisting the takeover as they felt like they benefited from the whole thing. Doesn't take away that Ultron just said "MINE!" and he took the whole race over.
Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Ditto.
OF COURSE they feed on lifeglow, it's how the tech-species like the Technarchs and the Phalanx sustain themselves.
They weren't "unintentionally" created, they were created to serve a purpose w/c they did so. The fact that they flourished as an individual species was the unintentional part.
His opinion is not indicative of his race's
I read it, I'm sure I read somewhere about the nature of the Phalanx (that they exist to assimilate, then to collect and process lifeglow, contact their technarch masters and allow them to feed off the gathered energy), I'll keep searching, but I'll be honest to say that I don't care enough about this debate to dig thru my mountains of messed up comics (I'm a reader, not a collector, mostly I just toss my comics in a big pile inside a closet.)
Again, we clearly have different interpretations of the arc.
Again, NO evidence of the Phalanx allowing him to do anything.
Lol. Again, the term "unlimited" gets thrown around a lot in comics. The only thing it proves is that there is set limitation to how much power cyclops draws from, there is however a limitation (as shown by ALL his on-panel appearances) to how much he can project at one time.
It's silly to argue that he somehow has "unlimited" power... :-/ Infinity fallacy fail right there.
I apologize. NOW GO BACK TO YOUR CORNER, !@#(!@#*!!!!!11!!one
Galactus can drain anyone because he is Galactus. Drawing parallels between their abilities really doesn't help your argument.
Thor can drain energy with the best of them, how come he's never tried this strat on Ultron?
While I don't disagree with some of the points Ill makes considering what Apoc can do to Ultron, and while I think most of stuff wouldn't work -if becoming an EMP weapon was enough to deal with him Ultron Iron Man would solo, energy drain has being used by Ultron, etc.-. Regarding Ultron's power output, it has been able to ko both Wonderman and Thor in a matter of minutes, so it's nothing to laugh at, even if it's not really up ther with its durability -Ultron wouldn't be able to ko itself-.
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Jan 22nd, 2011 07:04 AM
